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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: soozieg on Monday 22 April 13 16:42 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am still on the hunt for the birth of my gt gt grandfather William Kerfoot. He was born illegitimate and from census returns and death certificate he was born somewhere between 1854 and 1858.
The information I have is as follows:
He was born illegitimate to Robert Kerfoot and unknown mother (probably / possibly an Alice Jones who later became Roberts wife) this is evidenced through his grandfathers will.
1861 census - no information - possibly missing or should I be looking for someone with a different surname???
1871 census recorded as Kerfoot - living with grandparents on family farm in St Asaph - born in Llangollen recorded age as 13 therefore born approx 1858.
1879 - marriage in Blaenau Ffestiniog aged 22 - this would mean he was born 1857
1881 census recorded as Kerfoot - living with wife aged 24 born in Denbighshire - this would put him born in 1857.
1891 census - recorded as Kerfoot - living with wife aged 37 born in Denbigh - this would put him born in 1854.
1901 census - recorded as Kerfoot - living with wife aged 45 born in Acrefair - this would put him born in 1856.
1911 census - recorded as Kerfoot - living with wife aged 54 born in Rhosymedre - this would put him born in 1857.
Death certificate has him aged 57 in 1912 therefore born in 1855.
I cannot find a birth of a William KERFOOT in that year range anywhere in North Wales. There is one William Kerfoot born in 1853 St Asaph and I have the birth certificate and it is not him.
I need to access parish records - as I am no where near the area this is not possible in records offices. Hopefully by going through these I can find him - perhaps marked as illegitimate in the records with his mother.
I need to know a few things and am hoping someone can help me...
If someone was born in Llangollen / Acrefair / Rhosymedre where would they have registered the birth - Oswestry or Wrexham?
Are any records from this area only so that I can view page by page (painstaking task but no alternative left I think! :(
Can I order these records online from a welsh family history society and if so which FHS would cover all these areas or do they come under different ones?
Any advice on other ways I could proceed would be really helpful.
Thankyou Soozieg
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Hi
Just a quick answer to this:
If someone was born in Llangollen / Acrefair / Rhosymedre where would they have registered the birth - Oswestry or Wrexham?
Llangollen would be Corwen and Acrefair/Rhosymedre would be Wrexham.
I have most of the parish records for this area - either records or transcripts and will get them out and look for you.
Gadget
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Hi again :)
Can you give me more info on Robert Kerfoot and Alice - e.g. when did they marry, do you have them in censuses, etc.
Gadget
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Hi,
Thank you for replying... I do not have a marriage for them - have searched FindMyPast / ancestry and family search and cannot find a record of a robert kerfoot marrying around that time - perhaps they never did.
I have Robert born 1819 and baptised 1824 both in St Asaph area.
1841 living with his parents aged 22 at Marli Farm in St Asaph area.
1851 living with his parents aged 32 at Marli Farm in St Asaph area.
1861 cant find him at all - anywhere - census exists for Marli Farm, and Pentre Meredith (where he is in 71) is empty according to ennumerator.
1871 living at Pentre Meredith - St Asaph with SPOUSE Alice Kerfoot with children Ellen, James (both cited in his fathers will as also illegitimate) and Thomas and John Edward. William at this stage is now in Blaenau Festiniog which is where my family remained until about 1930ish.
I have taken over this research from my mum and am using her notes - which were on the whole very meticulous - she has passed away now so I cannot ask her where she got that evidence from! She has Alice's surname as Jones, but I have just realised that I cannot find out why she says it is Jones there is no evidence. Robert died in 1872 and the next time I find her is in 1881 in the workhouse - the family were wealthy so why did she end up in the workhouse with her two youngest children.
I think looking through the parish records for those areas I will need to look at every William in the time period who was possibly illegitimate with a mother Alice - and even then it is possible that Alice was not his mother and Kerfoot was definately not what he was registered as - perhaps he was never registered? So my only other alternative is to start buying certificates :-\
Any suggestions would be so helpful...
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Could the best way forward be to at least check Alice's maiden name by buying one of the later children's birth certs who was actually registered as Kerfoot such as John Edward. It is possble the older children were just registered under Alice's maiden name.
Kay
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She has Alice's surname as Jones, but I have just realised that I cannot find out why she says it is Jones there is no evidence.
I see that there are a lot of online trees which have this union but no information about a marriage.
The 'Names from Clwyd' site seems to have no mention of Kerfoot, which I find strange. I'm assuming that any children where registered/baptised with their mother's mn. It's very tricky :-\
I see that Granddad was b. Lancashire.
Gadget
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Looking at the baptisms of Thomas Kerfoot on FamilySearch and FindMyPast on 17th Feb 1867 there would appear to be an acknowledgement that the couple were not married.
Kerfoot is given in the surname column after Robert, but after Alice there is a line and question mark in the surname column.
Kay
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Maybe something or someone from this previous thread can help:-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,69237.0.html
Regards
Roger
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Looking for Ellen, b. Cefn Bychan. She might be the clue - nothing so far :-\
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I seem to remember spending a great deal of time on this before and getting nowhere!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I seem to remember spending a great deal of time on this before and getting nowhere!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
It is a wee bit deja vu, WR. I was hoping that new online records might give us some help but.... :-X
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Hi
Thank you all for trying to help...
The thread you posted earlier is from a relation and her questions have been answered - I am in touch with her and her John and Elizabeth was my Robert's uncle.
John Kerfoot had a son James who moved from Lancashire to St Asaph and all of James' sons farmed in the area - farm name in brackets after child - John (Bodhafod), Thomas (Bodoryn), James (Faenol Bach), William (Marli) George (Glan Llyn). William Marli is my line and Robert was his eldest son.
I have worked out where the name Jones came from - I have the birth certs of hers and Roberts 'legitimate' children - Thomas, John Edward and Robert - all have birth certs stating their father to be robert kerfoot and their mother Alice Kerfoot formally JONES.
The three illegitimate children are the ones I cannot find births for - William born between 1854 and 1858, Ellen Kerfoot born around 1860 and James - but I am not entirely sure about him - my focus is on William because he is my line... I might find the others when I find William perhaps?!
Kay that is interesting about the family search record - I will have a look at that - and I have found the certs for the others - definately Jones - which goes back to my original post - but sooo many Jones registered in that 4 year period for Wrexham and Corwen.
Yes hours and hours on this William Russell Jones - but I was hoping now I had more information that someone could help me further...
Perhaps the names from Clwyd does not have anything as they are all Denbighshire / Flintshire? I know that the boundaries moved a bit, but I am not sure about how Clwyd fits in?
Thank you again for all your help / interest in helping so far! I really hope someone can help me :)
Soozie
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Hi
Just a quick answer to this:
If someone was born in Llangollen / Acrefair / Rhosymedre where would they have registered the birth - Oswestry or Wrexham?
Llangollen would be Corwen and Acrefair/Rhosymedre would be Wrexham.
I have most of the parish records for this area - either records or transcripts and will get them out and look for you.
Gadget
How do you have most of the parish records for this area - can i purchase these?
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I have pr records from many years ago -when I or cousins/friends looked at fiche/films.
Later these helped:
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/publications/registers-books.htm
Also, Family search now have records which link to FindMyPast.
Gadget
PS - just seen your comment about Clwyd - suggest Googling - tut tut :-X
The county of Clwyd was created in 1974, by merging the ancient counties of Flintshire, most of Denbighshire, and part of Merionethshire.
Also:
http://www.namesfromclwyd.org.uk/
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Just noticed that Names from Clwyd say 'for Kerfoot, see Crawford' - who'd have thought it !
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[
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/publications/registers-books.htm
Also, Family search now have records which link to FindMyPast.
Family search is no real help as it does not give parents names - have already spent some time going through those... and there are so many William Jones! Just working out what is cheaper - buying the parish register lists from Clwyd FHS for Ruabon / Llangollen / Rhosymedre - but there is no Acrefair? Or joining FindMyPast for 6 months or using pay as you go...
It is possible that they went to chapel and in many cases those records are not online I dont think...
It is obviously one brick wall which is just not going to be solved yet... I have broken down many brick walls throughout my research, but this one is evading me - hence your de ja vue moments... I really appreciate all the help you have given and time you have spent today... thank you.
Soozieg
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From Names from Clwyd - ref to Clwys FHS booklets
CROWFOOT 278 Chirk:
CROWFORD 79 Gresford:
Misc: Gresford MIs: Edw, Mary;
KERFOOT 56C Rhuddlan:
79 Gresford:
81A Hope:
93C Abergele:
231 Hope:
295 Mold:
*357 Holywell St. James Churchyard MIs: Wray Kerfoot ROBERTS
PS - I said that FS give links to Find My Past which has most of the PRs for our area. I think you had better do some searching on there.
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KERFOOT 56C Rhuddlan:
79 Gresford:
81A Hope:
93C Abergele:
231 Hope:
295 Mold:
*357 Holywell St. James Churchyard MIs: Wray Kerfoot ROBERTS[/quote]
PS - I said that FS give links to Find My Past which has most of the PRs for our area. I think you had better do some searching on there.
8 Kerfoots in Clwyd is no where near the numbers I have born in the area. I think part of the problem is that they moved to Chapel.
As I said this was my mums research, not really mine, my ONS is my maiden name and that is really my focus... my mum passed away a couple of weeks ago so I wanted to see if I could get this sorted out, its not going to happen this time round... will keep hunting - I will search FindMyPast as you suggest, but I have exhausted all the Kerfoot baptisms in the area and so it has to be that he was baptised under his mothers name - which being Jones could take some searching. JUst spent the last little while looking through the names of clywd list but nothing that stood out on there.
thank you again for the time you have all spent.
Soozie
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Acrefair was part of the Rhosymedre Parish after 1844,prior to then it was part of the Ruabon Parish.See;
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Rhosymedre/index.html
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Did you have info about where Alice was born - I note on the 1871 that her place of birth was left blank. I've not followed up any further but, if she was in the broad Ruabon/Llangollen area, she might be in the records.
I have a few chapel lines but I was lucky that I inherited diaries and newspaper reports.
I did try a few newspapers but haven't found anything worthwhile about the Kerfoots. There might be something in the Welsh language ones.
WR - have looked through all my Rhosymedre records and nothing showing so far.
Gadget
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Have you seen this one - it might not be Alice but it is worth mentioning.
1881
St Asaph Union Workhouse
RG11/5529/77/15
Alice Kerfoot, inmate, single, 58, Dom serv, b. Denbigh
Other Kerfoots there as well, inc John b.c. 1867, St Asaph
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
I have only just seen this reply. This is my Alice, after her 'husband' Robert Kerfoot died she was sent to the workhouse with her two youngest children.
The search continues...
Many thanks for all your help thus far.
Sooze
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Hi Sooze
It's been a while, so I'm not sure what you now need. Is there any chance of updating your requirements, please?
Gadget
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Hi, nothing has changed really William Kerfoot remains my brick wall along with the marriage of his father and what I have presumed as his mother... Although you reminding me she went to the workhouse perhaps William was not her son! I have searched every William Kerfoot and jones on FindMyPast for the areas and dates, to no avail! Not sure how to proceed... I have his death, burial, marriage, but his birth evades me!
Sooz
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If he was illegitimate could he be one of the births simply registered as "boy" jones?
There are 3 for Corwen district and one for Wrexham between 1854-1858 on NorthWalewsBMD.
Regards
Roger
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That is a possibility. He uses William Kerfoot for his marriage, but I know that names were slightly interchangeable then as his step daughter also did this...
I think I am going to have to get the parish records and trawl through them individually to see if I can find something that rings some bells...
I will investigate the boy jones on FindMyPast.
Soozieg