RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Desmond on Wednesday 17 April 13 22:45 BST (UK)
-
Hi everyone
can anyone give any advice on the following .My great /great grandfather (Jeremiah Colclough) married in Dublin in 1871 and died the following year in 1872.I believe he may have worked as a Land agent clerk in Dublin Castle .
Can anyone give any advice on how to find out more about him
a) how he died ( only have his interrment cert for Glasnevin but not cause of death)
b) where would I go to find out where he worked etc.
I have his address in Dublin as first Buckinham St and then Harwicke St ( Thoms)
He is a bit of a puzzle in the family and would love to find out more.Any suggestions appreciated
thanks
-
I searched the online civil registration index for 'Jeremiah Colclough' died '1872' 'dublin' but didn't get any results.
www.familysearch.org
Then removed 'dublin' and see what looks like the 1871 marriage-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYSX-Y48
-
baptism of a son to Jeremiah and Bridget in 1872
Baptism of Patrick John Colclough - 20 March 1872 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/d24e080197348)
Parish : St. Mary's RC (Marlborough St.)
-
think this may be the marriage, with his name as Corneilius...
Marriage of Cornelius Colclough & Brigida Mc Cormack - 10 July 1871 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/2ca9380012439)
Parish : Rathmines RC, South Dublin
The groom's father is listed as Jeremiah
I checked for a possible death near 1872 under Corneilius on the BMD Index, but no match.
I see the 1872 entry, Jeremiah age 25 on Glasnevin - wonder if the name is correct...
-
Hi Shanew
yes what you have is correct.He married in Rathmines 1871 and died 1872(Glasnevin records) with one son Patrick born March 1872.
I too cannot get a date on his fathers (Cornelius) death and as posted cannot get any link to his early death.
Was also wondering how to find out any info on where he may have worked at time (Dublin Castle)
-
I was thinking the Christian names may be mixed up, so was looking for an 1872 death under Corneilius since that seems to be the name on the parish record of marriage.
Do you have a address for your Jeremiah from the Glasnevin record ?
The civil marriage cert should give you his occupation. The references you need to order a cert are included in the link on aghadowey's post
Name: Jeremiah Colclough
Record Type : Marriage
Year: 1871
Registration District: Dublin South
Volume : 12 / Page : 644
A matching reference appears for Bridget McCormack
see : Ordering Certs from GRO Roscommon (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,599538.0.html)
Details included on a Marriage Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433042.0.html)
Shane
-
I worked out the address from the Glasnevin website - 47 Hardwick St., same as the baptism of his son
I'll check Thom's 1872 directory later to see if there's any entry for him at that location
-
There is an entry in the Irish Times of June 22nd 1872 on page 8 referring to a Jeremiah Colclough of Hardewick St referenced death
-
Hi all
thanks for your efforts so far .Just to clarify for you (so you dont have to double check some records)
His name is Jeremiah (his father is Cornelius) He lived in 47 Hardwicke Street and this is also verified in Thoms Directory. On his death cert from Glasnevin he was listed as a Land agent Clerk .I heard stories in family that this may have been in Dublin Castle and hence my interest in
a) any records from Dublin Castle - do they keep them etc etc
b) how would I found out how he died as it is not on cert in Glasnevin or Irish times listing
thanks again
-
I don't have access to the Irish Times at the minute
Is there just a death notice or an article? as there is not an obvious civil record on-line
-
...
b) how would I found out how he died as it is not on cert in Glasnevin or Irish times listing
...
unfortunately without a civil cert, finding cause of death may not be possible. It could be missing, mis-recorded, or indexed incorrectly, or under some unexpected spelling, but nothing has shown up for me either. The entry could missing from the Familysearch transcriptions, and be in the actual index books. It might be worth checking with the GRO if they could carry out a search for you. Since you have a date and his home address (presuming he died at home, or at least in the general area) they would be able to recheck their index, and may be able to bypass these and look to the relevant registers volumes for possible details.
Hopefully if someone has ever heard of any Land Agent records relating to Dublin Castle they will post some details...
Shane
-
Hi
Myluck - the piece in Irish Times is just a Death notice unfortunately
shanew147- thanks for that - I might try the Gro offices as this seems logical thing to do.
There is a chance he might be listed as Coakley as that is the pronunciation of Colclough.I have not confirmed his birth cert yet but there is very strong possibility that he was born in 1845 as Coakley in Bantry with 9 siblings( I have all these details from Church records but "his" one is illegible and as the church record is off poor quality I need to make doubly sure
thanks again for help
-
A Mrs. Colclough is listed at the Hardwick St. from the mid 1870s through to 1899 at least. By 1904 the principle name at the address is a Patrick Shorthall. (He's cropped up on previous posts on RootsChat)
Jer. is listed at both 4 Buckingham St. Upr. and the Hardwick St. address in 1872 edition.
The coverage of the deaths Index by FamilySearch for the early 1870s looks to be normal in terms of numbers of registrations.
-
HI Shanew147
you mentioned Patrick Shortall in your post as living at 47 hardwicke street and I checked it on the other posts in Rootschat-(very interesting).Yes it would seem that he moved into no 47 after my gggrandmother(Brigid Colclough wife of Jeremiah) moved out.
Interestingly enough their first son (Patrick Colclough born 1901) (my great grandfather moved back to Hardwicke Street no 42 in 1919/1920 where he died very young also
Wonder what the attraction of this street was ?
Another question , you may be able to throw light on
When Jeremiah died in 1872 he was listed in Thoms as living in 47 Hardwicke St. His wife is listed there for next 28 years.If she didnt work ,would they have owned the house or was it typical of the time to rent (and therefore have the have lodgers to help pay )
-
most people leased or rented their house, so my guess is there was the option of continuing on the lease on 47 Hardwick street, possibly at a good rate. Maybe Jeremiah had connections due to his occupation that helped with this. Since Jeremiah died very young it seems very unlikely that he he could have purchased the house and land, so I would think Brigid must have had some kind of income to be able to stay on... possibly also took in lodgers as you mentioned. (this wouldn't necessarily be mentioned in directory listings as long as she stayed on at the address)
Electoral Rolls back to 1898 are planned to be added to the Dublin City Library website (http://dublinheritage.ie/), which might help answer this.
There's no land owner mentioned on the 1901 form B for the address, but this is often left blank.
I've had a search through various listings and see quite a few land agents offices scattered around the city and suburbs - nothing specific showing up for Dublin Castle. Not sure exactly their work involves, but they often appear in a section titled 'Land & Estate Agents'.
Where did Brigid move to ?
-
Could this death be him?
Jeremiah Coakley aged 24 in Cork (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRTK-444)
-
^^ well spotted - definitely worth a try.
Age close to the Glasnevin record (24 vs 25), maybe he was back home for a visit, in which case a possible clue to the location
@Desmond - does the newspaper article mention a place of death ?
-
Shanew/Myluck - thanks again -Some answers to your queries
Jeremiahs father Cornelius(Coakley) married a Johanna Lynne in Bantry ( both listed on Jeremiah marriage cert with occupatiion as Farmer)). I have a marriage from Church records in 1829 (with 9 other siblings )for Corneilius and Johanna and as I posted before ,the one I think is Jeremiah is very difficult to read from transcript.However because of the same Christain names,same mothers name and the unusual name Coakley/Colclough,I am presuming just for moment that the illegible entry is Jeremiah.So , there is a possibility that the death you found ( My luck) aged 24 could be him on a visit home (as per Shanew).I will have to check this out .I know he died in june/July(need to check my record)
@ Shanew-The newspaper article doe not mention a place of death unfortunately.
I heard from my father that Jeremiah may have been a caligrapher. The Glasnevin cementry entry lists Land Agent clerk as occupation and we heard he worked in Dublin Castle .
His wife Bridget(nee McCormack)lived in Hardwicke Street till at least 1900 and I found another marriage for around 1897 for a Matthew Mc cormack of 47 Hardwick St .So I am guessing she had a brother who was living with her for a period .(witness was Patrick Colclough who was her son , my g grandfather).She is in 1901 census in Saint Monicas nursing Home where she died in 1906.
Patrick married in 1900 to a Catherine Cahill and one of the witnesss was a Matthew Smyth (I believe another lodger (RIC in Mountjoy)
So a lot of unanswered questions but the big ones being why name change from Coakley to Colclough in move from Bantry to Dublin.How/why and where did Jeremiah die in 1872
thanks for all your help so far
-
The Irish times notice is terrible quality but I'm pretty sure it says he died "at his residence 47 Hardwick Street after a short but severe illness"
-
That would rule out the Cork death then!
-
@ My luck
just checked my transcript from Irish Times and it indeed does give an address of 47 Hardwicke Street but doesnt say he died there .
@Hasta .Can I ask where you viewed the actual original as would love to see it
-
@ My luck
just checked my transcript from Irish Times and it indeed does give an address of 47 Hardwicke Street but doesnt say he died there .
@Hasta .Can I ask where you viewed the actual original as would love to see it
The Irish Times Archive is available on their (subscription) website - with images.
see : http://www.irishtimes.com/search/archive.html
The Newspaper is also on microfilm in the National Library in Dublin
-
Hi Shanew, yes managed to see Irish Times posting.Jeremiah did die at home in Dublin and very suddenly by looks of things .
So in summary I have no death registered for him but as you suggested I need to contact Gro as it may be indexed wrong.
I visited Glasnevin at weekend and enquired after the grave as hwas buriedin an unmarked grave. I was told that there were 4 others also in the grave (around same period) and 3 of them were named LYNE which ironically is same maiden name as his mother .I am now wondering if there is any connection
-
I'm just catching up on family research after a while away from it and my eye was caught by this thread.
There are some matters here that seem to link into my family. My Gt. Aunt Polly (Mary) Shortall (née Coyle) lived with her husband, (latterly Sir) Patrick Coyle in 47 Hardwicke Street, and as far as I knew, the house was given them by her father, Patrick Coyle as a wedding present. If true, a handsome present! That, at least, is the story handed down.) My paternal grandmother, Elizabeth Ann Monks, Polly's sister, lived in No. 46. It was she who told me that Polly had lived next door. There was never any indication that Shortalls did not own the house. Quite the contrary.
Polly died in 1915 while the family were still living at No. 47; and Sir Patrick in 1925, but by then he seems to have moved to Clontarf.
The Monks family also had property in Buckingham Street, Nos 3 & 4. My Gt. uncle Nicholas Monks was left a share in the properties in my Gt Gt grandfathers will of 1902. The odd thing is that he (gt. uncle) died in 1928, but in No.37.
Desmond, if your forebears lived in No. 47 Hardwicke Street and 4 Buckingham Street it raises an interesting situation. My personal recollection of Hardwicke Street is of horrible tenements that had permanently open doors, no lighting of common areas, poor sewage. Clearly it was not always like that, and No. 46 at the Frederick street end was always single family house. And from personal recollection, No. 47, unlike other most other houses in the street, always had a locked halldoor. I assumed on this basis that it too was a family house. I should perhaps add that I can recall Hardwicke Street going back into the late 1940s when air raid shelters occupied the centre of the roadway.
I am at a loss to explain how Shortalls and your family lived in the same house. Shortall, who was some kind of builder, was far from being a poor man. But this does not fit with the fact that they lived there even after Shortall would have moved out. Perhaps one or the other family owned the house and leased a floor, as Shane has touched upon.
LATER
I have looked at the 1901 and 1911 Censuses and I find I have to revise, yet again, information that was passed down through the family as misleading or plain wrong. Yes, the Shortalls did live in 47, who the house belonged to I cannot say for certain. Certainly there were others living there, although on what basis they or the Shortalls shared the house, I cannot say at this stage - another fact to be established. Shortall is describer as a Builder, and at this stage he had not yet got his knighthood.
The connection of Buckingham Street AND Hardwicke Street with both our families is curious. This posting doesn't really throw any light on your original question, but it does suggest at some kind of link.
I have a picture of 47 Hardwicke Street of which I can let you have a copy, if you wish The houses (46 & 47) were double-fronted, but were only one room front to back. They had basement kitchens and outside were the areas overlooked directly by the footpath. The areas, at street level had protective iron railings set into granite kerbs. Three granite steps supported by an arch over the area, leading to the front door. Just outside the frontdoor there were shoe scrapers. There were cellars that extended out under the footpath, and perhaps partly under the road too. In my recollection those at 46 were used to store coal, which was delivered to the cellar through a manhole cover on the footpath. They had two storeys above the ground floor. No. 46, alas, no longer exists. Dublin Corporation acquired most of the houses in the street for housing development in flats. No. 46 was the last one they acquired. It broke my grandmother's heart as she had lived there since she had married in 1901.
-
Hi Xotan-
many thanks for your reply- very very interesting.Some facts that I have :
I know that my gggrandfather Jeremiah Colclough lived in no 4 Buckingham St in 1870 and 1871(Thoms Directory). He married in 1871 and then moved to 47 Hardwicke St with his wife Bridget (nee Mc Cormick - I believe originally from Co MEATH).He had one son Patrick ( my great grandfather) born 17/3/1872.Jeremiah died in June 1872 but his wife remained in Hardwicke Street till 1900.She was listed in Thoms for the period 1873 to 1900.Patrick married in 1900 my ggreat grandmother Catherine Cahill from Naas and their son John Jeremiah was born in 1902(my grandfather).
The 1901 census shows Bridget in St Monicas nursing home in Belvedere Place.She died in 1906
The census also shows John Jeremiah and new wife Catherine in Derrynane Parade.They had 8 other childern and moved house a few times (Valentia Parade -Caledon Road-Church Road- Brendans Road (that I know off) and finally back to no 42 Hardwicke St in 1920 where Patrick died from ( shortly after birth of last daughter)
From what was passed down thro family(albeit sketchy),Jeremiah had come from Cork/Kerry (and from earlier thread ,I may have found his parents in BANTRY 1829.We are told he may have had some wealth which passed to his wife when he died young.We believe he may have worked as a Land agent clerk- a caligropher ( wasnt Patrick Shortall an builder/ architect?).Both Jeremiah and Bridget were buried in unmarked graves in Glasnevin
yes I agree with you ,it is a bit of a coincidence that 2 families were living around the same time or just after one another in the same houses .
Yes I would love for you to send a copy of your picture of 47 Hardwicke St. I have heard so much about it at this stage (can you private message it or post it here?)
I hope some of these facts can touch a cord with any of your research as our Jeremiah is a real mystery.
ie : we think he came from Cork/Kerry as Coakley - moved to Dublin as Colclough ,marries ,has a son and dies all within 12 months leaving very little info behind
many thanks again for your super post
-
Hi contacted the GRO offices today and they were very heplful .However they confirmed that Jeremiah death was not registered in 1872 so I am back to drawing board fort he time being. any one any other ideas?