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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 16 April 13 09:28 BST (UK)
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It's been a while since we had a Scavenger Hunt, but this one promises to be a really good one. This is a major brick wall for Rosie2012, I do hope you can knock it down for her.
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
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Hello everyone,
I hit a brickwall when I obtained the marriage certificate of my grandparents Elizabeth Neary and Thomas Walsh, who married at St Gregory’s RC Chapel in Chorley on 29 November 1913. I discovered that her name had been recorded as Elizabeth McGuirk and also that the marriage certificate had been ‘corrected’ by the Registrar in 1941.
I have tried unsuccessfully to find out more about her and would welcome any help or new ideas that might provide a clue. The information I have is listed below, followed by my questions:
Marriage certificate of Elizabeth McGuirk (known as Neary)
Column 2 – her name is recorded as Elizabeth McGuirk
Column 7 – her father’s name is given as Thomas McGuirk (deceased)
Column 8 – her father’s occupation is given as Collier
Corrections made on the marriage certificate by the Registrar on 15 Feb 1941 in the presence of Thomas and Elizabeth Walsh:
In col. 2, for ‘McGuirk’ read ‘McGurk (or McGuirk) otherwise Neary’; in col 7 omit ‘John McGuirk (deceased)’ and in col. 8 omit ‘Collier’.
Birth Certificate of Elizabeth McGurk
DOB - 31 July 1888
POB - 26 Dean Street, Wigan
Name at birth - Elizabeth McGurk (daughter of Ann McGurk)
No father named
Baptismal Record of Elizabeth McGurk
Date of baptism – 13 August 1888
Place of baptism – St Mary’s RC Church, Wigan
Daughter of Joannes McGurk and Anna McGurk (nee Kelly)
Godparents – Thomas Neary and Joanne (?) Melling – plus a name I can’t decipher
1901 Census
Elizabeth Neary is listed as the 11th, and youngest, child of Ann Neary (widow). Both Elizabeth and William (born in 1885) were born after the death of Ann’s husband Thomas Neary in 1882. William was given the surname Neary at birth, but it is believed that both he and Elizabeth shared the same father.
The eldest child, John (b.1864) was 24 years older than Elizabeth, and appears to have emigrated to America in the 1880s. The transcription of the US Federal Census for 1930s gives his date of Immigration as 1888 (the year Elizabeth was born) but I cannot find any record of him on a passenger list for that date.
1891 Census
Although Elizabeth would have been 3 years old she does not appear on the 1891 Census of the household of Ann Neary (surname transcribed as Harry on this Census)
Marriage of Ann McGurk and Thomas Neary
Married in Wigan, June quarter 1863. Thomas Neary’s surname is transcribed as Nairy
Ann Neary
Her DOB on the 1871, 1881, 1901 and 1901 Census returns is given as either 1844 or 1845 but appears to have been incorrectly recorded on the 1901 Census as 1861
The information I am trying to find is:
Who was Elizabeth McGurk and where was she in the 13 years from her birth to her appearance as Elizabeth Neary on the 1901 Census? I cannot find any record of her, despite trying as many different spellings of McGurk and Neary as I can think of.
If she is the daughter of Ann McGurk who married Thomas Neary, why was her mother’s maiden name recorded as Kelly on her Baptismal record?
If Ann Neary was her mother she would have been around 44 years of age when Elizabeth was born
Could Ann Neary’s eldest son, John, have been her father? If so, could Ann have taken Elizabeth in as one of her own when John emigrated to America? This might be possible if he emigrated no earlier than 1888.
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Hi Rosie,
Sounds quite a muddle. I'm at work at the moment but will look when I get home.
Maybe when others who are stuck at work like me get home they'll come up with somethings. :)
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I am confuddled - which admittedly is not difficult! - with the original and amended marriage certs, are 2 different fathers names given?
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Also, what does it say on William (bn 1885) baptism record?
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And a final qu. from me - why are you sure that the John
McGurk Neary on the 1930 census is yours?
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Thank you for trying to help. I'm sorry for the confusion and will try to explain a bit better. When the marriage certificate was originally issued in 1913 Elizabeth's surname was recorded as McGuirk and John McGuirk (deceased) was named as her father. However, it appears that in 1941 Thomas and Elizabeth Walsh went back to the Registrar with the information that John McGuirk was not her father. The Registrar must have been satisfied as he issued a 'correction' which stating that her surname should be read as McGurk, McGuirk or Neary and John McGuirk was not her father.
Perhaps someone might know what kind of evidence the Registrar would need before making such a correction to a marriage certificate.
I am fairly certain that the John McGurk on the 1930 US Census is mine because (a) he does not appear on a British Census after 1881, and (b) some of the children named are also on the New York City State Census of 1910 and 1915. I met one of them in the late 1950s and have contacted the grandson of one who has confirmed that it is the same family.
Thanks again. Any ideas will be very welcome.
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Clarification please
Back to the corrections you say on her marriage her father is listed as Thomas but on the correction he is listed as John ?
OK I've got it now
jim
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Thanks for pointing out my mistake Jim. Her father's name is listed as John McGuirk on the marriage certificate.
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For John McGuirk to be named on the Baptism he would have to be present so at that point he is claiming to be the father.
There's no marriage that I can find of a John McGuirk to an Ann Kelly so she may be assuming his name.
There's obviously an infinity with the Neary's as Ann's son Thomas is a Godparent.
Do you have any info on the Neary's address in or around 1888 ?
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In 1881 the Nearys were living at Cambridge Street, Wigan, and in 1891 at Dean Street, Wigan, so they didn't venture far. Thomas, incidentally, was born in 1867.
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I notice in 1871 there is a McGurk family next door are they related?
In 1881 the Neary's are at no. 24. next door to where Ann (Elizabeth's mother) was living.
Is the John McGurk you found in 1930 the same one who has a daughter Eunice?
jim
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Found a John McGurk b.1864 emigrated 1888 in NY with sister Anna McGurk aged 22 could this be him?
Could Anna be the mother rather than John being the father ?
jim
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Another question:
who are Williams parents on his birth cert?
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Found a John McGurk b.1864 emigrated 1888 in NY with sister Anna McGurk aged 22 could this be him?
Could Anna be the mother rather than John being the father ?
jim
I am rather muddled, but I think that John bn 1864 would have surname Neary
From first post:
1901 Census
Elizabeth Neary is listed as the 11th, and youngest, child of Ann Neary (widow). Both Elizabeth and William (born in 1885) were born after the death of Ann’s husband Thomas Neary in 1882. William was given the surname Neary at birth, but it is believed that both he and Elizabeth shared the same father.
The eldest child, John (b.1864) was 24 years older than Elizabeth, and appears to have emigrated to America in the 1880s. The transcription of the US Federal Census for 1930s gives his date of Immigration as 1888 (the year Elizabeth was born) but I cannot find any record of him on a passenger list for that date.
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There's a John Neary living next door to Ann in 1891 who I thought was the son but I've just seen he was 10 years older.
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I'm very interested in the John McGurk who emigrated with his sister Anna in 1888. Do you know when they left England? His DOB ties in with that of John Neary and I've found an Ann Neary, born in Wigan in the Dec quarter of 1871, whose mother's maiden name was McGuirk. Neither John, Jane (b.1870) or Ann appear on the 1881 UK Census and I haven't found any record of them since that date.
I agree that this is a muddle! I don't know whether they were using the surnames McGurk and Neary interchangeably or whether there is a McGurk family lurking somewhere that I haven't yet found.
Thank you for keeping the ideas coming.
Do you have any thoughts on where Elizabeth might have been between 1888 and 1901? I wondered whether she might have been in the workhouse but I understand that the records for Wigan Workhouse have been destroyed.
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Do you have any thoughts on where Elizabeth might have been between 1888 and 1901
In the USA with her parents perhaps.
I must say that although I was mistaken with who emigrated it wasn't lost on me either that John McGurk who went in 1888 & John Neary may be one in the same particularly as he has an Ann McGurk with him.
I'm beginning to come up with a possible theory about all this.It looks like the birth cert. is correct in that Elizabeth was the illegitimate child of Ann McGurk .It's a relatively anonymous exercise registering a birth so there's no need to fib about it,however the christening is altogether different so it may be that as Elizabeth is a McGurk on the cert. she would have to be Christened under that name so John Neary the possible father may have been persuaded to become John McGurk & that Ann made up the name Kelly to make it all look normal.
They then emigrate with Elizabeth as McGurks but Ann either dies or leaves John who returns with Elizabeth after 1891 to be raised by his mother.John then reverts to his own name as Neary as does Elizabeth via his mother.
Not much to back this up of course.
jim
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I don't think your theory is as far-fetched as it might seem at first. I've been thinking along similar lines about the baptismal record. I guess we would have to find some evidence of Elizabeth being taken to America to back this up.
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Do you know who William's (b.1885) parents are on his birth cert?
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I don't have a copy of his birth certificate but the record gives his surname as Neary and his mother's maiden name as McGuirk.
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Is the John McGurk you found in 1930 the same one who has a daughter Eunice?
jim
That one is on the 1900 census with his wife ELizabeth and father Edward.
Rosie - which John McGurk/Neary is yours on the 1930 census?
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I don't have a copy of his birth certificate but the record gives his surname as Neary and his mother's maiden name as McGuirk.
You may need to get it to find out who his father was.
jim
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I have posted a lookup request in the hope of getting some information from his baptismal record.
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I'm curious to know how you know his mother's maiden name if you don't have the cert.
Can you give us the 1930 census info so we know we have the right one.
jim
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Hello Jim,
My last post related to your question about the names of William's parents on his birth certificate. I'm sorry if it caused confusion - I'm new to all this, so hope you will bear with me. I will try to make sure I say which posting I am replying to.
Back to John Neary and the 1930 US Federal Census. He is shown as having emigrated to the US in 1888 and in 1930 was living in Manhatten with his wife Annie and 3 children - Lilian, Thomas and Anna.
He also appears on earlier US Census Records: in 1900 he was living in Manhattan with Annie, Lilian, Thomas and John; in 1910 he was in New York with Annie, Thomas, Lilian, John, Mary and Anna Rita (incorrectly transcribed as Runa); and in Manhattan in 1920 with Annie, Lilian, Thomas, Mary and Anna.
Thanks again for your continued input.
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I notice his immigration varies from 1887-90.
Annie's also varies but is consistently prior to John's indicating they didn't travel together.
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Ancestry has a birth record for Thomas Neary (bn Illinois) giving parents names as John J Neary and Anne McGuire
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We seem to have a serious anomaly here.
This is the 1905 NY State census:
John Neary b.England/42
Annie b.Ireland/42
Lillian b.USA/13
Thomas b.USA/10
John b.USA/6
Mary b.USA/4
Thomas b.Ireland/64/ father
How can he be here if he died in 1882 ??
Which is the right family this one or the one in England?
If they are the same then the 1882 death isn't him.
Thomas says he's been in the USA for 25 years!
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The John Neary you have found on the 1905 NY State Census is the brother, or possibly the father of Elizabeth McGurk. His wife and children are the same as on later Census returns (minus Anna Rita who was born after 1905). John is the son of Thomas b.Ireland, d.1882 and he himself had a son Thomas b.Chicago in 1895.
Interestingly, as someone else as pointed out, the birth record for Thomas Neary gives his parents names as John J Neary and Anne McGuire - could she possibly have been Ann McGurk?
Someone has kindly offered to look up the Baptismal Record of William Neary on Tuesday and hopefully that may give some more information
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The John Neary you have found on the 1905 NY State Census is the brother, or possibly the father of Elizabeth McGurk.
But how can his father be with him if he died in 1882?
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I hadn't realised that his father was with him in 1905. I don't have a BMD record of Thomas's death but was told that he died in 1882. There does not appear to be any record of him in the UK after the 1881 Census so he might have gone to stay with his son and by 1905 could have been in the US for 25 years.
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It's possible Thomas "remarried" to a Bridget Brett & went on to have another family.
They lived in Manhattan a few blocks away from John.
This Thomas says he immigrated in 1880/1 & was born Ireland 1841.
jim
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Well ... we may have a bigamist!!! John's father (Thomas) was born in Ireland in 1841 and his last appearance on the UK Census is 1881 (taken 3 April) so he could have emigrated soon after.
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Where did the Thomas Neary death come from?
The closest I can find is Thomas Narey d.1882 Wigan b.1830.
I can't see your Thomas.
jim
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It came from family members. Perhaps they were covering up the fact that Thomas had run out on his wife and children
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What we have so far is Thomas emigrated 1880-1 & probably started a new family with Bridget Brett.
John followed in 1888 & was in contact with him during that time.
John's wife Annie McGuire isn't Elizabeth's mother as she emigrated before her birth.
What we need to know is what was happening in the Neary household after Thomas left & before Elizabeth was born.
If you don't have any joy with the Lancs. post you will have to get William's birth cert. which may not be a bad idea anyway as what's on the cert. may differ from what's said at the Christening as was the case with Elizabeth.
jim
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I will get William's Birth Certificate if the Baptismal Record doesn't throw any light on who his parents were.
I haven't been able to find the 1905 NY Census or any record of a Thomas Neary & Bridget Brett. Did you find it on Ancestry?
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You can find it on IGI
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Many thanks
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I think Thomas has been enumerated twice,once while visiting John & second as the head of house with Bridget although he wasn't there at the time,I have seen this before.
Also his age in 1905 with Bridget is way out but in 1900 he gives his birth year as 1842.
This is why Thomas with Bridget is only a possibility.
jim
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Thanks Jim,
I've found the record for 1905 where Thomas is in John's household, but apart from the possibility of him being the person married to Bridget on the 1900 Census I can find no other record - which is surprising considering he says he has been in the US for 20 years.
This has been a really fascinating find and I'm learning that things are not quite what they seemed. If only I could find out where Elizabeth was between 1888 and 1901 - but that looks increasingly less likely! Hopefully William's Baptismal Record may provide a clue.
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If he went after the 1880 US census,the first he will appear on is the 1900 census as the 1890 census was pretty much destroyed in a fire.
jim
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Thanks Jim, that makes sense
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We have another Scavenger Hunt which requires some in depth Search and Rescue. Hopefully someone will be able to point Alatair in the right direction.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,650036.msg4965077.html#msg4965077
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.