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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Tiki1962 on Monday 15 April 13 22:40 BST (UK)
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Hi I am wondering if anyone can help. I am trying to track down an ancestor in NZ. Through the very generous community of Roots Chat I have managed to get to this point, which two years ago was a big dream. I am trying to ascertain where and when my ancestor died. I have found a death of "a" George Thomas in BDM NZ online. I closed the parameters and found that he died on 5th March 1887. Can anyone help me to find a death notice to see if it is the correct family or a cemetery where he was buried? I am happy to order certificates but would prefer to order the right ones. :) Thanks for any help given. :) Tiki
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Hello,''Go to "Papers Past"-
In the 'Colonist' dated 15.3.1887 there is the report of the death of a George Thomas who died on the 5th-
"Case of Sudden Death" @ Wakamarina.
Minniehaha.
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Hello Tiki
Is the death you've found - 5th March 1887 - maybe connected to the man mentioned in the following article about an inquest ?
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Colonist" (Nelson) - 15 March 1887 - The Case of Sudden Death at Wakamarina
... relates to a George THOMAS - a.k.a. "Yankee George" - native of America - a shoemaker by trade but more generally occupied as a miner. Believed to have no relative in this country.
~ Lu
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... ooops ... ditto, Minnie. :)
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Thanks Minniehaha and Lucy2. :) Another one I can strike from the list. One step forward and two steps back. One day I will learn how to use Papers Past properly. Thanks so much.
Tiki
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Hi Tiki
If you'd care to give us a little more info on the George THOMAS you are seeking, then we'd be happy to extend the search. :)
~ Lu
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Thanks Lucy. George Thomas was born in 1825 in Ireland and joined the 70th Regiment. He was posted to India and then to New Zealand. He married Alfred's mother when she became a widow in India in 1854 with a 18 month old child. He was a sargeant and was medically discharged in 1864 to Auckland. I have found an article by his son (my great great grandfather) Alfred Huett that talks about his beloved father working for a small sum, but happy to have employment. Alfred lived in the Parua Bay/ Whangarei area from approx 1878 onwards. So I am now trying to track down George Thomas and his wife Catherine who was known as Kate. I believe Kate died in 1864 in Auckland and I have ordered the certificate from BDM NZ online. That's what I know and what I have evidence for. any help would be greatly appreciated. I did visit NZ in January and I knew more than Whangarei relatives did, from researching online. Tiki :)
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Hi Tiki,
If ordering any more birth, death, marriage registrations it is best to go for the printouts as these are cheaper and can contain more information.......
I would liken them to a photocopy of the original registration document. They can be emailed to you.
Minniehaha. :)
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Thanks Minniehaha, I do that. In the resource section I read that it was the better option. Thanks again :) Tiki
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Sorry Tiki, I just picked up on the word 'certificate' in your last post.
Minniehaha. :)
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Mmm ... do bear in mind though that early NZ BD & M records, contain only minimal information. :(
[NZ board Resources section (as well as the NZ BDM website), lists what info was recorded for various eras. ]
~ Lu
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I ordered the certificate as I can trace Catherine D Thomas back to Scotland on her maiden name, as it is a strange middle name. actually it is her grandmothers maiden name. In some records she put the D and sometimes she didn't. If its the right one then I have three generations further back. I figure, at times, it's worth it. But with George Thomas, no middle name on army records, tis a wee bit harder. I always think the family tree is my addiction and I don't spend that much. Tiki
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Thanks Lucy. George Thomas was born in 1825 in Ireland and joined the 70th Regiment. He was posted to India and then to New Zealand. He married Alfred's mother when she became a widow in India in 1854 with a 18 month old child. He was a sargeant and was medically discharged in 1864 to Auckland. I have found an article by his son (my great great grandfather) Alfred Huett that talks about his beloved father working for a small sum, but happy to have employment.
Hi Tiki
> Do you know from any records you have for George THOMAS, whether at the time of his discharge in NZ, he received a land grant of any type ?
[I just found the reference to your earlier thread re: George - but must go back and re-read it. ]
~ Lu
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Oooops a senior moment
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Post deleted
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oops,wrong thread as you say ::) ::)
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Hi Lucy2 - where would I look for land grants? I did find them once but can't remember where ??? Thanks again :)
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Hello...
I'm guessing you got George's army info from his discharge papers on FindMyPast.
Did you manage to follow up the two notations dated "9.9.68" and "30/8/78"...or 76
Maybe just a filing reference but the latter says "cau of" which might be short for "cause of death".
Might not :)
THOMAS, George - Page 4 of discharge papers
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tj6/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tj6/)
Maybe ask the Belfast board to see if there is a possible 1878 death (or 1876).
Regards
Beg
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Hello,
The birth year of this George would be abt. 1830 whereas Tiki has stated 1825. Do we have the same George?
Minniehaha.
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Hi Minnie...
I'm just going by the info given in the various George THOMAS threads, specifically this post by KHP...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,606391.msg4558897.html#msg4558897 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,606391.msg4558897.html#msg4558897)
Seems to fit the discharge papers and the regimental number (1989) is the same.
But I may well be on the wrong track :)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg,
Just thought I would point it out. Was going by the information in Tiki's third of the current posts.
[I'm not on any track at all!!]
Minniehaha. :)
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Hi all from his papers (there are 4 pages) it says he was attested in 1843 at the age of 17 yrs 10 myths. Thus circa 1825. He served for 20 years and 53 days. However on the last page it has the other age??? I'm confused by that. Unless it is an odd 39?
Tiki
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Post deleted
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No I haven't as I didn't know where to go. I can post on the Belfast board re death as you suggested. Is there anywhere I can check notations? Thanks for all the help by the way. I am amazed at the wealth of knowledge and the desire to share on this site :)
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Hi Tiki...
Maybe ask on the Armed Forces board for advice on interpreting the notations.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,300.0.html (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,300.0.html)
You can just copy and paste the following ShrinkLink. It's the one I gave earlier. Just ask if anyone knows what the two lines refer to. Curious to know if it says "cau of d" (but I suspect it's "care of" something something)
EDIT: "Care of S.C.J Belfast" may be The Supreme Court of Judicature (the High Court) in Belfast.
Maybe the Discharge Papers were transferred there for storage in 1878. Maybe not. Not.
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Did I read somewhere that George and Catherine had four children of their own. Do you know where these children settled. If his children stayed in NZ it seems a bit unlikely that George would retire to the other side of the world in Belfast.
But if you do want to follow the Belfast angle there maybe someone on the Belfast board who has an 1878 street directory which lists a possible George. Or maybe has access to death notices for that period. No harm in asking.
Regards
Beg
Edit by Moderator at request of original poster.
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Thanks Beg. :) I have to pick up the kids and so I will do the armed forces board when I get back. I appreciate your input :).
Tiki
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Here's a link to the post on the Antrim board asking for details of a death in 1878 for George Thomas-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,643725
The Irish civil registration index is online (www.familysearch.org) and shows no death with that name for that period in Belfast. I've also looked at PRONI Will Extracts (for Belfast Registry-www.proni.gov.uk) and there is no match.
Added- have also checked the Belfast burial database (covers 3 of the Belfast cemeteries)- one George Thomas died 1878 (age 67) but other details don't match. wrong date- 1978
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George Thomas died 1878
Hello...
Isn't that 1978 or am I looking at the wrong website - Belfast/Roselawn/Dundonald Cemeteries
Regards
Beg
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Oops, yes. Up all night with a sick child and didn't notice date was 100 years too late :-[
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Hi again...
Am still playing around with the notations. They're more than likely red herrings but who knows.
Carrying on the Supreme Court of Judicature idea I mentioned earlier, PRONI has lots of SCJ records. I don't suppose you'll be in Belfast anytime soon :)
Archive Title - PRONI Reference Prefix
Appeal Records, Supreme Court of Judicature - APP
Bankruptcy Records, Supreme Court of Judicature - BANK
Chancery Division Records, Supreme Court of Judicature - CH
Judgements, Supreme Court of Judicature - JGT
King’s Bench Division Records, Supreme Court of Judicature - KB
Matrimonial Office, Supreme Court of Judicature - MAT
Miscellaneous records, Supreme Court of Judicature - MISC
List of non-departmental public records held by PRONI
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tjq/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tjq/)
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More than likely wishful thinking on my part linking the SCJ and George's discharge papers (it is). So I won't be offended if you just file this away for another day :)
Regards
Beg
Edit by Moderator at request of original poster.
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Thanks Aghadowey and Beg. :) I will wait and see if anyone can help with the notations before scouring Ireland's records. That certainly is a comprehensive list to use. I thought he had stayed in NZ after he was medically discharged, until you pointed out the notations - one should never presume. He had three children from what I could find and they were Alfred Huett, Catherine Thomas (born 1857)and Agnes Ellen Thomas (born 1855). There may be more but that's all I could find in the India records and the family sailed to NZ in 1861. Thanks again :)
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Hi again...
Have you traced the two daughters, Agnes and Catherine.
Just wondering as I saw an Agnes WARD m.s THOMAS d.1912 aged 57 (BDM website) or 58 (Death Notice on PP website). Buried at Purewa in Auckland with husband John.
Name, age and location sort of fits. Might be worth looking at unless, of course, you've already traced the daughters.
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Lots of lookers but no takers on the Armed Forces thread. Bit of a nuisance :)
Regards
Beg
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Thanks Beg, I was thinking of tracing down this line to contact a very distant relative. :) out of curiosity where did you find the information that showed the maiden name? For future reference for me :)
Tiki
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Hi Tiki...
The maiden name is mentioned in the 1930 obit for John WARD.
No guarantee it's your Agnes. She may just be a namesake
Papers Past - Auckland Star - 14 November 1930 - Page 9
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tlt/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tlt/)
Regards
Beg
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Thanks Beg. It's worth travelling that road as the ages are correct and it is the best lead I have! I have found the 3 sons and 2 daughters mentioned in the article and their marriages. So I will try to trace the descendants. I did that with another branch of the family and hit gold. I met a distant cousin and have now a photo of my great. X 3 grandfather! All this from the generous help of Roots chatters :D you have been so generous with your help, it is appreciated.
Thanks again Tiki
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Hello Tiki...
Was looking through Archway and came across the following....
Imperial Pension Accounts - 1865 to 1891
www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewEntity.do?code=17399 (http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewEntity.do?code=17399)
If you click on "MORE INFORMATION & INDEX" it describes soldiers in NZ receiving a pension. It covers the right timeframe so maybe George is mentioned.
The finding aid says "The names of persons receiving pensions that are contained in these registers are indexed into the General Biographical Card Index [BIO 1] located in Archives New Zealand, Wellington Office reading room.
Maybe ask for a look-up of the Card Index to see if George is mentioned.
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Have also been looking at lots of notations on lots of discharge papers on FindMyPast, cos it's free at the moment :)
Here's page 4 of George's discharge papers, to which I linked earlier.
THOMAS, George - Page 4 of discharge papers
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tj6/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tj6/)
Famous last words but as I read it the second notation on George's discharge paper places him in Belfast in 1878 (or 1876...can't quite tell). The bit that looks like "cau of S.C.J.2 Belfast" is actually shorthand for "care of the Staff Officer of Pensions, Belfast 2nd District". This is the officer who doles out the pension money to the soldiers living in his district. There were two payment districts in Belfast, thirty three in total in Ireland.
I'll make a reply to your post on the Army board and explain a bit further.
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A slight flaw in the Belfast theory is that there doesn't really seem to be a corresponding 1878 or later death in the Belfast area. There is one possible death in 1901 but if he's the chap mentioned in the 1901 Irish census then his census details are wrong. So keep in mind that George may well have returned to the Belfast area but it's as likely he didn't and I've got it wrong.
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Would you mind if I started an associated TNA look-up thread on the London board. Not 100% sure what I'm asking for. Something to do with pensions. It could all go horribly wrong so I'd prefer not to involve you directly :)
Regards
Beg
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You are being so helpful and of course feel free to post. You need to be a super sleuth to work it out
Thank you so much! Tiki 😊
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There is one possible death in 1901 but if he's the chap mentioned in the 1901 Irish census then his census details are wrong.
Hi again...
I just had another look at the 1901 Ireland census. I didn't notice previously but the George THOMAS I earlier discounted is actually listed as a Pensioner. To be precise a "Pensnior".
I'm not sure what the term "Pensioner" specifically means in this context but your George was definitely an out-pensioner of the Royal Chelsea Hospital.
Will ask on your Co.Antrim thread to see if anyone knows the definition of a pensioner in 1901. Hopefully it's something to do with old soldiers.
1901 Ireland census (click "Show all information")
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Court_Ward/Old_Lodge_Road/946945/ (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Court_Ward/Old_Lodge_Road/946945/)
In- and Out-Pensioners
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_pensioner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_pensioner)
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Still sorting out a reply to your Army Board thread. Just want to organise it so I don't embarrass myself. There's some really clever clogs on that board.
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Have you given any thought to the "Imperial Pension Accounts" look-up. Possibly a dead end. Possibly not :)
Regards
Beg
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Thank you Beg. It is one of those weeks (am posting while waiting at the doctors). I will organise it. You are a gold mine of information. The Imperial Pensions Account is a great idea! Thanks again!
Tiki
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Hi Tiki,
Beg asked me to have a look for your George in the General Biographical Card Index [BIO 1] and I've found him;
George THOMAS, Serg't 70th Regiment, Pensioner, file ref: T9/2 p. 210.
I have ordered the file and hope to return tomorrow to sight it.
Spades
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Thank you so much Spades! Any information will be gratefully received. Also thank you to Beg, he has been so helpful.
Tiki
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He always is ;)
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Hi Tiki,
I have a little goldmine here for you. :D
Could you PM me with your email address, please?
Spades
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Images sent.
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Bingo!!! Thank you so much, I appreciate it. It is a gold mine for me.
Tiki
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I've just realised that I didn't provide a complete citation for the file:
Archives New Zealand reference:
Title: Ledger
Item ID: R4409703
Agency: ADRK
Series: 17399
Group Record: T9
Box/Item: 2
Spades
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Efficient as always Spades! Thanks
Tiki
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Hi again Tiki...
Spades was kind enough to email me a copy of the ledger photo (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tvc/) so whether you want it or not here's my two cents :) You've most likely worked it all out anyway....
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"He was to sail in the Ballarat. Paid ??? towards the voyage". This would be the Ballarat departing Auckland 3 Nov 1867 arriving in London 21 Feb 1868. I think it says he paid £14 towards the voyage but that's just a guess. £14 is about $1500 nowadays. Seems an awful lot for a pensioner.
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"Transferred to Norbiton, Kingston on Thames near London" would refer to the 70th's regimental depot known as "The Barracks".
The Regimental Depots - Kingston-Upon-Thames
http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/1661to1966/depots_k/depots_k.shtml (http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/1661to1966/depots_k/depots_k.shtml)
For what it's worth, the records of the East Surrey regiments have been transferred to the Surrey History Centre and are available for researchers. Don't know if a record of George's arrival would still exist but you never know. Maybe there's a record of his eventual departure from the Depot listing his intended destination. Now that would be a find.
Surrey History Centre - (Hope this link works)
http://www.surreyarchives.org.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=ESR&pos=1 (http://www.surreyarchives.org.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=ESR&pos=1)
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My money is still on George returning to the north of Ireland but maybe he stayed in England for a few years. He might be one of the several hundred George THOMAS's listed in the 1871 census. If you've access to ancestry and a few hours to spare....
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The really annoying thing is that the National Archives in Kew only have detailed ledgers for UK-based pensioners up to 1862. Not sure why we here in the Colonies have ledgers that go much further. Fortunately we do as you've now got a definite time and place to continue the search.
Regards
Beg
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You are a gem Beg. I have been trying to decipher some of the information so your interpretation helped. When George went back to England he would of had two daughters with him. They would of been 11 and 13 years old. I am looking for shipping records next as it might show them.
I had ordered a death certificate for Catherine Thomas
, George's wife, and she died in 1864. It said she lived in William Street and so did George according to the records. So it may be the right one :)
I will email Surrey History Centre and see if they hold any of the information you have listed.Thank you for the links too.
Thank you so much. It was very muddy waters and now some history is finally showing through.
Tiki
Ps all the links work :)
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Hi Tiki...
Thanks for the PM. Kiwi born and bred but had a twenty year OE in the UK. Had a good look around at the time so am reasonably familiar with that part of the world. Having said that, the internet has turned the world into a series of websites so one National Archives of [insert country] website is pretty much like another.
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I had forgotten that in 1867 the two daughters would still have been quite young. If they did travel with George, and if they all remained together in England for a few years, it should make it easier to identify them in the 1871 census.
I don't think you'll have much luck finding the passenger list for the Ballarat, although I hope I'm wrong. By all accounts pre-1878 UK incoming passenger lists are virtually non-existent.
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Is your Alfred HUETT the Alfred who married Eliza in 1879 and died in 1938. I'm just asking because the probates for both Alfred and Eliza are held at Auckland Archives. If his sisters Agnes and Catherine remained in NZ and had children these children might be mentioned in the probates. Maybe a bequest to a niece/nephew. Maybe not. No harm in asking for an Auckland Archives look-up.
HUETT Alfred - Whangarei - Settler - 1938
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=18787 (http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=18787)
HUETT Eliza - Whangarei - Married Woman - 1929
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=9382948 (http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=9382948)
Have you seen the 1938 obituary for Alfred that is mentioned on the NZ Card Index. If not, I'll see if it's on the NZ Bio's fiche at my local library.
NZ Card Index
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/nzcardindex/ (http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/nzcardindex/)
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Was having a look at the Agnes WARD m.s THOMAS that I mentioned earlier in this thread. Her burial record on the Purewa cemetery fiche says she was born in England. Worth keeping in mind but certainly not conclusive proof. For what it's worth one of her sons (Thomas Addis WARD) is in Whangarei during WW1.
Maybe ask for her ITM. Might mention something. Might not :)
Regards
Beg
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Thanks Beg. I have Alfred's obituary ( the library was kind enough to email it) and I paid for his will from Archives. I don't have Eliza's and I might request this.
Just to let you know that Alfred Huett, Agnes and Catherine Thomas were all born in India. So possibly this is not her... What is an ITM?
Tiki
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Hi Tiki...
Sorry. I knew they were all born in India. I should have written something like...
"Although the burial record says she was born in England that's not really proof of anything. So this may still be the right Agnes and is still worth looking into."
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Here's the ITM info...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,494517.msg4544371.html#msg4544371 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,494517.msg4544371.html#msg4544371)
Here's an example of an ITM thread. It goes slightly astray but, as ever, Spades gets there in the end.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,645491.msg4927814.html#msg4927814 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,645491.msg4927814.html#msg4927814)
If you do request an ITM just mention the names of the groom and bride. As the wedding is pre-1881 it will be in the ITM card index which will make it easier for the looker-upper.
The ITM might not be of much help but it's still worth checking out.
Regards
Beg
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Thanks Beg. I still have to learn not to take as gospel everything that was recorded. When I don't I find lots of new information. I am presently looking through the 1871 Census. Lots of new leads and ideas.
Thanks again Tiki