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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Derbyshire => England => Derbyshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: queenswood 1 on Sunday 14 April 13 16:45 BST (UK)
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I can see a copy of an agreement at the Derbyshire Record Office dated 1814 between William Bourne of Belper, William Bourne of Burslem, Staffs, John Bourne of Belper and Joseph Bourne of Belper for the co-partnership of a bottle factory at Belper.
I am sure that John Bourne and Joseph Bourne were the brothers of william Bourne of Belper but can anyone tell me what the relationship/family connecction was regarding the stated William Bourne of Burslem, Staffs.
Would really appreciate any snippet of info.
Caroline
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Could it be that William in Burslem is son of the other one?
Are these the same people? (click on item 3)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tic
And this will?
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~brett/wills/will_wbourne1819.htm
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Thank you- that is the Will to which I refer.
It is possible that william in Burslem is a son of william in Belper- I will need to dig a bit deeper!
Thank you
Caroline
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In that item 3 it refers to "William Bourne the elder of Belper, stone potter, William Bourne the younger of Burslem, Staffordshire, manufacturer of earthenware..."
Doesn't that the elder/the younger usually infer a parent/child relationship? Or is that not totally reliable? Erm, now I am worrying that it is just a relative age thing ???
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Thank you- I think you are correct re elder and younger being father and son.
Do you think I am correct in assuming that William the elder (ie the father) was born in Belper area and that maybe his son William moved across to Burslem in conjunction with the pottery industry?
The basis of my enquiry is around 2 factors
1. On the Internet site entitled Belper Derbyshire Historical and Genealogical records, there is a section that highlights specific notable families. One of the families related to the Bourne family- it commences with Hugh Bourne, founder of Primitive Methodism who was born at Ford Hays in North Staffordshire but came across to Belper in the early 1800s and founded the Pottery methodist chapel there, directly opposite the pottery being run by William and his son Joseph. The article immediately links across to another part of the Bourne family re the Belper potters- William Bourne and his son Joseph, very active around the same time that Hugh Bourne was setting up the chapel there later merged into Denby.
2. I have received research recently that indicates that part of my family is directly related to the Belper Bournes - which is news to me as I thought all my Bournes were based in Cheshire and North Staffs/ Tunstall/ Burslem etc. But I also come from a background of staunch primitive Methodists and have for several years attempted to confirm my grandparents belief that we are related to Hugh Bourne and his family. Having seen the info on the Belper Derbyshire site it has excited my interest, hence my queries.
Try as I may I just cannot make the bridge between my Bournes and the Hugh Bourne family- but I would love to know that facts behind the connection on the Belper site that may give me a clue - hence my excitement when I saw William of Belper referring to William of Burslem; together with Hugh Bourne mentioned on the same site.
Fundamentally I am trying to establish some background into the Belper Bournes to see if they link back across to the Bournes in Staffordshire (Hugh Bourne etc)- i have constructed quite a family tree for Hugh Bourne but still have one or two question marks which could be filled by the Belper link.
Does all this make sense?
Any help really appreciated.
Caroline
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I suspect that you are so immersed in this that I will not add anything!
The 1819 of William shows that he owed businesses at Burslem, Gresley and Belper.
Do you know when he was born?
Hugh was born 1772 wasn't he? And his grandfather was John Bourne from Abbey Farm near Milton.
I suppose that if the trees meet up then it would have to be around that point?
I agree that it looks as though William Jnr was the son of William Snr, and since the rest of the brothers appear to be in the Belper area then it looks as though William Jnr had moved to Burslem to look after his father's business. William Snr was in Belper by 1782 at least http://www.belper-research.com/people/slater/thomas%20slater%20history.pdf and a bit before that. I suppose the question is, did he come from the Burslem area? He could have retained a business interest there, or inherited from someone after he moved to Belper? or do you think that the Belper Bournes had been there much earlier?
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Thank you so very much for taking the time to have a look at this with me!
Realistically, I think I am going to have to work back William Senior in some way to see if there is a crossover with the Hugh Bourne family tree. It would certainly seem that the Hugh Bourne family have been in the Staffordshire area back as far as Hugh's Gt Grandfather William Bourne who was born in Norton In the Moors c 1667. Hugh's grandfather John Bourne b 1697 Norton was hugely industrious and became a very wealthy farmer, to the point he was able to establish his 5 sons (plus he had 3 daughters) with a good education and sufficient funds for each of them to become Yeoman level by the time they married. Parts of this Bourne family certainly headed towards Manchester in the late 1700s early 1800s to open shops to sell their farming products. They were also quite involved with the mechanics of the mining industry- flint and clay for the pottery inducstry- and at the time of Hugh Bourne's birth in 1772, links were already formed in the Burslem/Tunstall area as I have read accounts of Hugh's mother Ellen going to those areas 'on business'.
I think the only way forward now id to try and trace William Snr back a couple of generations to see where we go- and I will see if any of it tallies with Hugh Bourne's tree. I will try and expand the Hugh Bourne tree sideways for a couple of generations- i have the siblings of Hugh's father but have very little regarding the siblings of Hugh's grandgater or Gt Grandfather.
If you are able to help with the William Bourne Snr in Belper that would be marvellous but I quite understand if you don't!
I wonder who put the info on the Belper Historical and Genealogical site which actually puts Hugh Bourne and William Bourne together??? Just a thought!
Many thanks
Caroline
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The last thing I want to do is drag in another county ::) but I found this
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tip/ page 725
Is that William Snr? It says that he died in 1823, does that fit? And says he was born in Eastwood.
Because of the Wesleyan connection you might get some information from Google Books. If you haven't used that search much then I can give you some guidelines for it - but it comes with a "very distracting" health warning!
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Hi - thank you- that answers a few questions too as I had found a MI to both William and his wife Edith at the Belper Central methodist- and it refers to William dying on 3rd Oct 1823 aged 76- so this must be the william Bourne that you have found which states he was born in Eastwood Notts.
At least that makes William Bourne - the Belper potter- probably NOT the link I was hoping for!
Many many thanks
Caroline
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Hi,
My understanding is:-
Richard Bourne = Rebecca Dodds and their son William Bourne, was born 1747 Eastwood, Notts he died 3rd October 1823.
William Bourne married Edith Dawes.
15th February 1770 - Marriage Licence Bonds, Nottinghamshire Archdeaconry Court gives
the following information:-
William Bourne parish of Eastwood, Potter 22 Bachelor and Edith Dawes parish of Greasley
18 spinster of Greasley.
George Dawes is Bond, and Father of Edith.
The children of William Bourne Snr & Edith Dawes:-
William Jnr
Joseph
John
Edward
Still researching this family, think that the Belper Research Site only connects Hugh Bourne &
Bourne of the Potteries because of their religious belief not that they were related by birth.
To which branch of the Bourne family are you connected ?
Spendlove
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That makes sense, Spendlove.
I did not know that there was pottery going on at Eastwood - no reason that I should have I suppose :) I used to live at Newthorpe when I was a small child. Did DH Lawrence ever mention pottery? Perhaps I should have paid more attention in English Lit class?
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Thank you so much for the information- that has helped 'remove' one of the options!
I am related to the Bournes of Weston and Wybunbury in Cheshire in the 1700s and 1800s- one of whom produced a son who married into the Potteries in Tunstall and Burslem by the mid 1800s- and produced a son a few generations later who was my grandfather- who was himself a primitive Methodist lay preacher and preached at Mow Cop in the 1920s.
His wife- my Nanna, always insisted that her husband was related to the Hugh Bourne family and it has become quite a project for me to research!
It certainly seems that my Bournes and the Hugh Bourne family - and resulting branches- were living and moving in the same neighbourhoods from around 1750 to late 1800s- they must have known each other- i have a dirct ancestor James Bourne who established the Prim methodist Church in Shavington Cum Gresty, Cheshire, following a visit from Hugh Bourne which inspired him so much.
I also have Pointons in my direct line- and if you look at the Hugh Boirne Prim Meth info, one of the earliest meetings for conversions was held at the farm of old Joseph Pointon just on the Cheshire side of Mow Cop.
I also have steeles in my direct line- and Hugh's mother was Ellen Steele- but her father was a yeoman farmer in Cheadle Staffs and my John Steele was a yeoman farmer just across the border at weston, Cheshire.
I am tantalisingly close but just can't make the link!
So you can understand why my ears pricked up when I discovered by chance the mention of the Bournes- with Hugh Bourne- on the Belper site!
As you say- probably just a coincidence- again, the Belper chapel was built by a Bourne after a visit by Hugh Bourne- just as the Shavington Cum Gresty one in Cheshire.
Any ideas gratefully received!
Caroline
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Hello Spendlove and all
I have come across this old post whilst searching for William Bourne, I think he is the Junior you are referring to, as I have his daughter Edith marrying in 1838 to Edmund Sharp of Sharps pottery in Swadlincote
The will Gardener links to, of William Bourne Swadlincote, looks to me like that of William Junior, but not sure when he died, even if the will is dated 1819
Spendlove do you have the dates of William Jun (and brothers) births ?
I have not found a marriage for William junior, his wife on the will is Ann some of the children appear to be young at the 1819 date. Later censii of Edith suggest she was born about 1816, the nearest I have found for her baptism is 1813 Methodist in Stoke & Wolstanton so could be her
Any updates greatly received
Chris
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Thank you so very much for taking the time to have a look at this with me!
Realistically, I think I am going to have to work back William Senior in some way to see if there is a crossover with the Hugh Bourne family tree. It would certainly seem that the Hugh Bourne family have been in the Staffordshire area back as far as Hugh's Gt Grandfather William Bourne who was born in Norton In the Moors c 1667. Hugh's grandfather John Bourne b 1697 Norton was hugely industrious and became a very wealthy farmer, to the point he was able to establish his 5 sons (plus he had 3 daughters) with a good education and sufficient funds for each of them to become Yeoman level by the time they married. Parts of this Bourne family certainly headed towards Manchester in the late 1700s early 1800s to open shops to sell their farming products. They were also quite involved with the mechanics of the mining industry- flint and clay for the pottery inducstry- and at the time of Hugh Bourne's birth in 1772, links were already formed in the Burslem/Tunstall area as I have read accounts of Hugh's mother Ellen going to those areas 'on business'.
I think the only way forward now id to try and trace William Snr back a couple of generations to see where we go- and I will see if any of it tallies with Hugh Bourne's tree. I will try and expand the Hugh Bourne tree sideways for a couple of generations- i have the siblings of Hugh's father but have very little regarding the siblings of Hugh's grandgater or Gt Grandfather.
If you are able to help with the William Bourne Snr in Belper that would be marvellous but I quite understand if you don't!
I wonder who put the info on the Belper Historical and Genealogical site which actually puts Hugh Bourne and William Bourne together??? Just a thought!
Many thanks
Caroline
Hi Caroline
I think we must be related! I am a Bourne living in Australia but coming from the line of the Bourne Pottery clan. I visited Denby some years ago and rang all the local Bournes to see if any were related but none were. One actually said that he changed his name legally to Bourne!
Colin Bourne
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WILLIAM BOURNE (1)born C1748 to a Burslem family = RICHARD BOURNE + wife ANN ROWLEY.
WILLIAM (1) was a Potter in Eastwood(not the only one! There was also an 'entrepreneur' GERVASE BOURNE, who most likely was related but also a rival) on WILLIAM (1) marriage, he moved to Belper & acquired the Pottery there.
His first born son WILLIAM (2) born 1773 in Belper, but soon moved with his wife HANNAH WALKER to Burslem to manage the BOURNE'S Pottery there. This WILLIAM(2) died in 1819. See WILLIAM(2) Will,
dividing the potteries he owned by his death in 1823 (yes his son William died before him) between his surviving sons. The HUGH BOURNE'S family connection is as yet not proved ---but very likely true-----the'waters' are muddied by relations of RICHARD BOURNE having 2 or more wives...second wives often named their sons the same as the first wife! Alva
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Hi,
We have different information.
I have William Bourn Bapt. 19th April 1747 at St. Mary's Eastwood, the son of Richard Bourn (a potter) and Rebecca his wife.
Richard Bourn = Rebecca Dodd.
This couple had many children, one of whom was Gervase Bourn, 2.2.1737 entered as Burn all Bpts are in Eastwood, Notts.
Images of register on Ancestry.
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TO Spendlove
Hello,
Wow you are ahead of me in the research! I had not been able to find Gervase's father with any certainty.
That confirms my thoughts of why WILLIAM moved to Belper to build his own 'Empire' in potting.
I will take more notice of the misspelling of BOURNE in future---so misleading, with BURN--BORN--BURNE etc.
So you have all you need now?
Regards, ALVA