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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: baltibluebird on Friday 12 April 13 17:51 BST (UK)

Title: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: baltibluebird on Friday 12 April 13 17:51 BST (UK)
Hi

I have hit a huge brickwall in my tree.

How do you find a man's baptism in about 1811 when in the 1841 census he is "born out of county" (the census County being Warwickshire at the 1841 census) and he died sometime between the 1841 and 1851 census?

Basically, I am looking for a birth/bapism of a John (H)orton abt 1811 +/- 5 years - in the 1841 census he is a brewer in Salop Street, Birmingham.

I have details of his marriage in 1831 Edgbaston from a fellow RC and no father's name, of course, is given due to the date: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,434716.msg2988454.html#msg2988454

The only pointer is that John Horton's witness was a William Horton (possibly a brother?)

So, how do I go about this now please does anyone have any ideas or is this an end to this particular branch in my tree?

Thanks in anticipation ...
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: g eli on Friday 12 April 13 19:50 BST (UK)
I have had a couple of these in my family tree, one I solved by tracing the witnesses. See if you can find a William Horton with an age about 5 years on either side in the census. Look on IGI for
John Horton anywhere in England does he have a father or brother William,any other siblings, try tracing them forward to see if you can find a connection.
It is time consuming and you need to take careful notes but sometimes it is rewarding.
 Also try looking in newspapers of the time, all sorts of people got their name in the paper for all sorts of reasons and sometimes they are helpful.
Liz
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: baltibluebird on Friday 12 April 13 20:26 BST (UK)
Thank you for your suggestions.  I had made a start this afternoon looking for a William Horton in the censuses and will keep on looking.

I wonder whether that William Horton was also involved in brewing trade.
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: [Ray] on Saturday 13 April 13 17:14 BST (UK)
Hi

He appears to have died around 1848-1851, assuming the 1851 census details are "correct".
ie William is 1 yo.

As the children were born "Aston" then one of the 2x Aston deaths (1848+1850) could be added to your list of potentials?

Ray
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: chenet on Saturday 13 April 13 17:21 BST (UK)
Names of children can help too as often they are the names of parents.  If you can eliminate his wife's family names you might try looking for the other names as his parents.
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: baltibluebird on Saturday 13 April 13 18:28 BST (UK)
Ray - thanks for these 2 death date suggestions. 

Chenet - Thanks for that suggestion, I do have his wife's family names already.
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: alpinecottage on Saturday 13 April 13 18:47 BST (UK)
I looked in www.historicaldirectories.org

There is a John Horton, brewer in Tonk Street, B'ham in 1840-ish and some William Hortons in directories of similar dates (various occupations).  You could try chasing these Williams through the censuses and establish their birth dates and see where they came from - that might give you a lead.
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: baltibluebird on Saturday 13 April 13 18:57 BST (UK)
Thanks alpinecottage, I had found him in Tonk Street Birmingham directory.

I think its becoming clear that I need to try and track William Horton in the censuses. 
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: MargP on Saturday 13 April 13 19:12 BST (UK)
Hi Westwood

The Horton name is a nightmare to research, I just been trying to sort my Hortons out, they are from the Staffordshire area, Darlaston, Wednesbury, West Bromwich, but I not gone that far back on them yet, and it does not help, when all the sibling name there children the same names, does it state on the Marriage which parish he was living in.

Margp
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: baltibluebird on Saturday 13 April 13 19:30 BST (UK)
Hi Margp

Yes I have come to learn that its a very common name and sometimes is known as Orton too.

My gut feeling says that he came from Staffordshire having looked at loads of Horton/Orton families.

I haven't actually seen the Parish Register entry as it was kindly provided to me from a fellow RC from a CD they had and they did not mention a parish, just the witness names of William Horton and Eliza Smith and that the bride and groom signed with a X.

Further down the line in my tree there is another Orton from Birmingham who is stated as "nephew" to the Head of household.  The wife's maiden name was Horton, Maria Horton, John Horton's daughter.

I would be really interested to see the original PR but Birmingham Archives are closed.  I am also not well enough to travel upto Birmingham at the moment.  I wondered whether the copy on the LDS microfilm would shed any further light?

Thanks in anticipation ...
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: MargP on Saturday 13 April 13 20:11 BST (UK)
You can check the marriage record out, at your local LDS Centre
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: baltibluebird on Saturday 13 April 13 20:30 BST (UK)
Have just tried to order it but been advised online that the film is not avaiable. :(
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: MargP on Saturday 13 April 13 20:42 BST (UK)
Have just tried to order it but been advised online that the film is not avaiable. :(
I would ring them
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: MargP on Saturday 13 April 13 20:56 BST (UK)
The only Baptism Record I can find for a John Horton is the following, but this in the county of Warwick

John Horton or Orton
b 29 Jan 1809 Southam Warwickshire
Father John, occupation Hatter
Mother Ann

Source FindMyPast
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: baltibluebird on Saturday 13 April 13 21:11 BST (UK)
Thanks I will ring them when they are next open.

I dont think that the FindMyPast entry is relevant as he was not born in county in the 1841 census.  There are a few possibilities on Familysearch which I will look into but I need to find a brother William to a John born abt 1811 +/- 5 years ...
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: MargP on Saturday 13 April 13 21:51 BST (UK)
Elizabeth is born out of the county on the census, but she was baptized in Edgbaston
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: baltibluebird on Saturday 13 April 13 22:00 BST (UK)
Yes Ive just checked my tree, census and LDS baptism record and yes she was baptised Oct 1812 Edgbaston.

Perhaps I should look for William Hortons in Warwickshire too.

Oh Goodness this is all so confusing so Im glad of any help please!

Will PM the RC who gave me the marriage details just to check if the parishes were noted.

Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: MargP on Saturday 13 April 13 22:12 BST (UK)
William, may not have been a brother, he may have been a cousin, uncle or even a father
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: baltibluebird on Saturday 13 April 13 22:25 BST (UK)
Yes I take your point thank you that he might have not been his brother.

I dont think I can go any further with the other witness, Eliza Smith as it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.  I could check marriages between Horton and Smith and vice versa and also Swinnerton and Smith and vice versa but I doubt that will be fruitful.
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: pinefamily on Wednesday 17 April 13 02:39 BST (UK)
Checking the original PR for the marriage might give up his original parish; it might also pay to check if there are any banns records available. Mind you, it still might be a case of "of this parish", which could mean he was there for a couple of weeks at least.
Title: Re: How to find a birth with little info - huge brickwall
Post by: baltibluebird on Wednesday 17 April 13 08:03 BST (UK)
Unfortunately Birmingham Archives is closed until September so the original is unable to be checked.  I have confirmed with the fellow RC who advised of the details from a cd that the Parish wasnt given on the cd.  I had also wondered whether there were any banns but due to the closure I dont think I can progress any further at the moment,  I will ring the local LDS later and ask them whether the film referred to is available and when it might be available.  Thanks for your assistance.