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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Norfolk => England => Norfolk Lookup Requests => Topic started by: WilliamKane on Friday 12 April 13 05:00 BST (UK)
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The said Sarah was my Great Great Grandmother. The trouble being whilst doing some research into her children, I was advised that maybe, her eldest child, also called Sarah was from an earlier marriage. I can't find any record of her Roman Catholic baptism which would have taken place in C.1854, hence the confusion.
Now Sarah Hall lived in Gateshead (Co.Durham, at the time), as indeed do I. I have no idea when she moved up here but it seems to have been as a child. That dear reader, is where you come in........
Her father was called Michael and her mother Rachael, nee Todd, we think! Can you help me find any records of Sarah's birth? All I have is what I've already stated, born Diss, Norfolk C.1830.
I really would be eternally grateful for any help you can give. Thank you in anticipation.
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What is her marred name? (Assuming Hall is her maiden name)
Is she the Sarah Birch on 1861 census? Married to Leonard Birch Bn Diss, living in Coxhoe Durham.
If so, there doesn't seem to be a child Sarah bn 1854 , at least not with them.
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No, her married name was Sarah Cain/Kane. She married my GG Grandfather, William Cain/Kane. I can only guess when at this stage. Probably the early 1850s though. She was certainly married to William by the time of the 1861 census.
Thanks for your interest though. :)
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Welcome to rootschat :D
From the Norfolk Marriage Index
Michael Hall married Rachael Todd 9 Sept 1822 at Thetford St Cuthberts
yokel
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16 Sept 1831
Sarah Sophia daughter of Michael and Rachel Hall (occupation Brazier) baptised at Diss
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tgd/
Diss bapts 1813-1835 image 85 of 103
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tge/
yokel
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I'm not having any success finding them in 1861 under Cain/Kane - nor can I see a marriage for Sarah Hill to William Cain/Kane ..... (though of course if it were a second marriage then she wouldnt be Hall)
WHat is the source of your info? Have you got a birth cert of one of their children, thus confirming mothers maiden name - does it show any other previous names for her?
Can you give names and yr of births of their children?
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16 Sept 1831
Sarah Sophia daughter of Michael and Rachel Hall (occupation Brazier) baptised at Diss
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tgd/
Diss bapts 1813-1835 image 85 of 103
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tge/
Wow! Thank you so much for that and for the previous post about her mam and dad. :) It took a matter of hours for the breakthrough that had eluded me for so long! Again, wow!
yokel
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I'm not having any success finding them in 1861 under Cain/Kane - nor can I see a marriage for Sarah Hill to William Cain/Kane ..... (though of course if it were a second marriage then she wouldnt be Hall)
WHat is the source of your info? Have you got a birth cert of one of their children, thus confirming mothers maiden name - does it show any other previous names for her?
Can you give names and yr of births of their children?
Well, the best I have for 1861 is under the name "Cane". The trouble with that source is however, Sarah the mother is listed as having been born in Scotland. >:( I'm almost certain it's them though.
My source? Census records and local church records. Sarah (the child) could well have been William's daughter, the problem arose when I was looking at baptism records the other day and having estimated her birth year as 1854, I was horrified to find that the relevant volume was missing from the records!
I am currently doing an Irish family history course and we were all at the local archives, each doing our own research but the "teacher" as it were, got stuck when it came to finding Sarah (the child's) birth. I have already mentioned the missing volume but there was something else? Some other reason why she may not have been William's but for the life of me, I can't remember what that reason was! I must quiz him at my next class on Thursday.
As for dates of birth for other children -
Rachael 28.3.1859 Died as a child but no idea when.
Mary Ann 12.8.60
Margaret 28.1.63
Rachael 9.8.65 Again died with out further info.
Finally the twins
William 14.1.67
Michael Signey 14.1.67 (The baptism records show his name as Michael Sidney, however my cousin assures me that it was Signey, that being a name in Sarah's family)
There are references to Sarah in the 1841 census, (living in Gateshead with her parents and two brothers James 15 and Matthew 13.
In 1851 she's listed as living in Newcastle as a lodger with the Scott family. No idea why.
1861 As stated previously, under Cane.
!871 She's living in Gateshead with five children. The latest being 3 day old John for whom I have no baptism records as yet.
1881 In Gateshead with William and two son's, William and Michael the twins.
That's it. That's all I have.
Oh by the way, I haven't been able to get any certificates of any sort, due to the fact that I'm skint! I'm hoping the situation will pick up soon! ::)
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Welcome to rootschat :D
From the Norfolk Marriage Index
Michael Hall married Rachael Todd 9 Sept 1822 at Thetford St Cuthberts
yokel
By the way, may I ask where you got that information from? I mean, the Norfolk Marriage Index, where can I find that? I can find nothing about Rachael nor Michael.
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Here is the 1871, though Sarah 1854 isn't there
Gateshead
William 42 hawker in small goods bnIreland
Sarah 39 bnNorfolk
Mary Ann 11 bn Gates head
Margaret 8 bn G
William 4 bn G
Michael 4 bn G
John 3 days bn G
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And 1861. , when she is there
RG 9 3800 62 35
Gates head
William Cane 31 cartman bn Ireland
Sarah 29 bn Scotland
Sarah 7 bn gateshead
Mary A 7 mnths bn G
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It seems Sarah's birth must have been recorded in the missing volume. ::)
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I would think it is either:
Jan/Feb/Mar 1854
Gateshead ref 10a 435
Sarah Cain
Or
Apr/May/Jun 1855
Gateshead ref 10a 474
Sarah Cain
OR, if born before the "marriage", then there are Sarah Halls born in 1853, 1854 or 1856 in Gatesead Reg district.
It is not made easy by the fact they didn't seem to actually marry. So we don't know if the big gap between Sarah and the next sibling indicates they were from separate relationships, or if Sarah senior and william were together but just didn't have a child in that time.
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Hmm? I'll get to the bottom of this! ;) I'm not sure whether Sarah was a Catholic or not. Would she be allowed to marry in a Catholic church in those days, if she were not a Catholic? The Yokel, very kindly, posted her mam and dad's marriage on here. It seems to be in an Anglican church? Oh, I'm confused!
She is the only one in the family, or so it seems, with an English name. Everyone else is Irish or of Irish extraction. That's Sarah Hall, I mean.
More to work on! ::) Thank you. :)
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So you have the marriage?
When was it?
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It's the fourth post in this thread. :)
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I meant William Cain / Sarah Halls
To see if it was before or after Sarah's birth around 1854ish
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Sorry. No. My cousin and I, are going to the archives tomorrow to try to find it. :)
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No luck. Sarah Cain B.1854 isn't in the baptism records for St. Joseph's church. They go up to January of 1854 but the next volume is missing so I'll have to go and see the priest there, whom I know, to ask whether they have anything. It seems though that they must've been destroyed or lost at some time or other.
There IS Sarah Cain in the the list of children registered in 1854 and it is probably her but how to prove it?! I'm really fed up, with looking at microfilm and computer screens all day. However, thus is the lot of a genealogist I suppose. :)
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No luck with a marriage?
If not, then we still dont know if she was likely to have been born Cain/cane etc, or if she was one of the Sarah Hills births , born before Sarah senior met Mr Cane
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Of course! You're right. After spending so much time looking for her, I forgot to look for a marriage. I'm there today (the archives) though so......... :)
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Visits to Record Ofices are like that....... they always lead on to a 'next time I'll .......' :) :)
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Nothing. The church has no records as they gave them all to the archives. At the archives, I checked and there are no marriage records for that early, for William and Sarah. It looks like that's that. :(
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You never know what might come up at a later date to help confirm if Sarah jnr was of the union with William Cane or not. Family History can be like that, you think something has reached its end, and then suddenly out the blue, something comes up that gives a lead. But even if it doesnt, I guess it is not too restrictive in your research of the famly not to konw.
It does seem though, from the lack of record in the indexes, that Cane and Sarah senior, never married. Was William Cane perhaps already married or something?
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No, I think they did marry. It's just that if it was in St.Joseph's church, they don't have the records for it. Baptisms for their other children (after Sarah) show Sarah's maiden name as Hall so I'm certain they were married. :) I mean, she was in the records as Sarah Cane or whatever spelling they used but also, under her maiden name so they MUST have been married. Mustn't they? ha ha
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As Sarah(1830) was in Newcastle in 1851, just a few years before Sarah(1854) was born, it might be worth checking the PR’s there, even though the 1861 census says that Sarah(1854) was born in Gateshead.
FreeBMD has some Sarah Hall births around that time, there is also a marriage ref Newcastle T 10b 114 Sept Q 1859 which only has three names
Sarah Hall
Ann Sewell
James Smart
If Sarah married James Smart :-\ but if Ann married him who did Sarah marry ;)
I have a couple who were baptising children which also had her maiden name on the birth cert, but could never find their marriage nor what happened to his first wife. Just discovered she had been living in the lunatic asylum for 30 years :-\
Sorry I didn’t answer your post about the Norfolk Marriage Index, this is a CD sold by the Norfolk Family History Society and list marriages in Norfolk (obviously) from 1801 to 1837.
See http://www.norfolkfhs.org.uk/bookstall/
As you have the baptism for Sarah 1830, it might be worth posting a request on the Northumberland board for a lookup re Sarah 1854, put a link to this thread so people don't duplicate all lizdb's hard work
yokel
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Thank you. I've done that. Now let's wait and see! :)
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Oh sorry, what does PR's stand for? Sorry, I'm having a major brain fade! :(
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Parish Records ;)
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Oh good grief! ha ha Sorry. :-[
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Hi William,
I have just started researching my family tree on my mother's side with help from my Great Uncle in England, (I'm in Australia). I believe that we have some of the same ancestors and I would appreciate any information you could give me,I am happy to pass on any information I have that may be able to help you as well. Basically my great grandparents are Michael Hall and Sarah Barrowcloth and it goes back from there to James Hall and Mary Jones, then James Hall and Elizabeth Brown and finally Michael Hall and Rachael Todd. I think it would be the second James Hall that is a brother to the Sarah Hall that you have been researching.
Thanks
Stephanie
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Hi Stephanie,
I'm rather afraid that I can't be of any help to you because myself and my cousin Catherine, have been trying to find something about Sarah Hall for ages now but sadly, without much luck.
I'll let you know how she fits into the Kane family tomorrow.
I'll have to go to bed now though as it's 10 pm and I have to be up early. :(
Thanks for getting in touch.
William
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Hi again Stephanie,
here's what we know about Sarah. She was born around 1831 in Diss, Norfolk. We have no idea when her family moved up north or indeed why. We're guessing it was because of her dad's (Michael Hall) work though. She married William Cain/Kane in 1853/4. We can't find any record of a marriage in the church records, however, we're still looking. She might have married in another church to the one in which her kids were baptised.
The 1861 census has William listed as being 31 and Sarah 29. Their daughters Sarah and Mary A. are listed as being 7 years old and 7 months old. She had no other children at that stage. BTW, their name was spelled Cane on the census.
By 1871, Mary Ann Cain is down as being 11, Margaret 8, William and Michael both 4 and finally John 3 days. As you will have seen, Sarah appears to have died sometime during the previous 10 years. Of course she could have been living with relatives - that's quite possible too.
In 1881 we have William Cain 54 and Sarah Cain 52 along with William and Michael aged 14. William Snr is down as being born in Ireland (we don't know where!) and a hawker, while the two boys are already down as glassmakers! It was a hard life. :-(
Now then, I've just noticed on the census form that they lived in Scott's Row (which I knew already) but living there too are - George Hall 24, Mary A Hall, his wife 21, Thomas 2 their son and Sarah A 4 months, their daughter.
Now I have no idea what sort of dwelling they were but I imagine them to be very overcrowded so the two families could easily have been living in one house, with other families. Unfortunately it doesn't tell one the number of Scott's Row where they were. Just a "schedule number" (whatever that is) which in their case was 7 and in the case of the Hall family was 6.
In 1859 they had a daughter called Rachael who must have died because they had another daughter called Rachael in 1865.
One more thing, in 1851 she lived in Newcastle upon Tyne as a lodger with James Scott 40 and Jane S. Scott 39, their children Michael 9 and Susannah 3. I can only make out "North Shore"? as an address and both James and Jane were born in Gateshead, however I can't tell where there kids were born. I'll get Catherine on the case.
Anyway, we're still working on Sarah who was our great, great grandmother by the way. If there's anything I've missed I'll get back to you. If you need any details about anyone - such as birthdays for example just let me know. :-)
William
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what about this entry on familysearch
Sara Harle or Hall
Father: Michaele Harle or Hall
Mother: Rachel Todd
Christened: 16 April 1853
Birth date: 23 Nov 1830
Index No: C03187-0
System: England-EASy
Film No: 2046403
Ref ID: item 1 v 1 p 111
Residence: Gateshead, Durham
Church Register:1851-1930 - Catholic Church. St. Joseph's (Gateshead, Durham)
bendywendy
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Wendy! I think I love you! I'll "get on it" next week at the archives.
Thank you sooooo very much!!!! :-*
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Do you know who the parents are for Rachel Todd ??? and where she was born ??
b.
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No. ??? She was born in Diss, Norfolk according to the census records.
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No, wait I'm wrong about that. Sarah was born there but I don't know where Rachel was born.
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It seems she may have been born there too in around 1801, however the sources aren't the most reliable. ::)
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Ok familysearch again, I have searched this way:
Rachel Todd
Birthplace, left that blank
Dates between 1790-1810
this is what I have found, so most likely is your Rachel Todd
Rachel Todd
Father: Samuel Todd
Mother: Rachel Smith
Christening: 2 entries both different dates 15 or 16 June 1802
Diss, Norfolk
Index: I04140-3
System: England-EASy
Film: 1596390
Ref ID: item 22
Diss, 1551-1915 - Church of England. Parish Church of Diss (Norfolk); Norfolk and Norwich Record Office, Norwich, England
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Wow Wendy, that's great! Especially with you finding a Smith in there. ::) Ha ha
Still, it opens up an English branch of the family, which should be easier to research than our Irish ancestors!
Thanks again Wendy. xxx
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Your welcome, pleased to have helped you ;D
Have fun with the Smiths :-\
I think they forgot to baptise Sarah and it came to light many years later or records had been destroyed/damaged/lost and they choose to have her re-baptised.
Wendy
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Ha ha, well there's the rub you see. Sarah married William Kane (a Catholic) in Gateshead. The records for the wedding are missing however. She must have been baptised as a Catholic before marrying William.
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Are you absolutely certain they married at Gateshead:
William Kean & Sarah Hall @ Marylebone Sep Q 1854 - you need to check this one out with census and births etc., to see if these are a different couple ???
Have you found William Cane/Kane etc on 1851 cen ???
On familysearch there are baptism's for children to William Kane & Sarah Hall - William Cain & Sarah Hall Cain, Gulielmi Cain & Sara Hall Cain all at St Mary, Newcastle upon Tyne and dau Sarah 1854 is baptised too along with Thomas 1855, Joannes 1871, Maria Ann 1857.
There is also listed a marriage for a Sarah Hale Kane to Thomas Hedderly at Christ Church, Newcastle upon Tyne 13 Nov 1872 her birth being 1854.
b.
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Erm, erm, I'm pretty sure. That's a lot of information you have there. I'll need to digest it properly and do some checking. My cousin found that one at Marylebone a few months back but we ruled it out simply for geographical reasons. They had to meet somewhere however and London is as good a place as any.
The "Newcastle angle" intrigues me. Sarah lived in Newcastle before she was married, as a lodger I seem to recall.
All in all, there's quite a bit to look at tomorrow. I'll "chew the fat" with my cousin and get back to you then.
Thanks for now. xx
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well if they did marry in London they could also be the same ones in Newcastle and Durham.
Off to bed now, good chewing
b.
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From Ancestry Select Marriages:
Sarah Hale Kane, 18 yrs (1854) Father William Kane
Thomas Hedderly, 24 yrs (1848) Father William Hedderly
Christ Church, Newcastle upon Tyne
13 Nov 1872
1871 cen
Sarah Cain, 14 (1857) Servant, birthplace Not Known
Civil Parish Corenside, Bellingham, Kirkwelpington, Northumberland in the home of John Nesbit.
RG10; Piece: 5159; Folio: 23; Page: 12
It could be she didn't know where she was born, or she was not asked and someone else gave the details.
b.
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That marriage in Marylebone is not the one you seek, the marriage cert is on Ancestry and the fathers name is George Hall, so this rules that one out for defo.
b.
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1871 Sarah Cain b. 1854 was living at 9 Simpson Tce, Newcastle. Mary Hall Signey, her aunt was the head of the household. Sarah was under the name of Sarah Ellen Hall.
This is info supplied by my cousin Catherine who thinks that William Cain born c.1829 was in the merchant navy 1845 - 1854 but she can't remember where she saw this info.
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Merchant Navy records are on Find My Past
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/merchant-navy-seamen
Merchant seamen serving up to 1857: further research
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/merchant-seamen-registers-1835-1857.htm
b.
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Thanks for that Wendy. I'm unsure myself about the navy thing but it's worth a look.