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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Wiggy on Tuesday 09 April 13 02:50 BST (UK)
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Hello,
IF you were looking for someone and it is believed that they may have changed their name by deed poll, how would you go about finding out/proving it - in UK?
Can't go into more detail on the board - but am very interested to hear the answer.
Wiggy
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Depends on the time frame Wiggy - I've seen some official name changes listed in the London Gazette but I don't know how recent these are.
Also seen some very early ones noted in the Parliamentary Papers at TNA
Di
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Thanks Di.
First half of last century, at least before WW2 possibly a little earlier, so not tooooo far back.
Wiggy
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I don't know if things are different now, but in the timeframe you are talking about, you could call yourself whatever you liked (unless it was for purposes of committing a crime) so most people didn't bother with a Deed Poll for a name change - just by adopting that name and using it was sufficient. I believe you could make a Statutory Declaration which said that you had adopted a new name, but this too wasn't strictly necessary. So name changes were easy for the person concerned, but not so easy for people searching for them!
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Hello,
IF you were looking for someone and it is believed that they may have changed their name by deed poll, how would you go about finding out/proving it - in UK?
Can't go into more detail on the board - but am very interested to hear the answer.
Wiggy
They could not change their name by deed poll.
That is only a form of proof that a name change has occurred. A change of name always occurs by the use of a new name.
Cheers
Guy
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The National Archives have a research guide at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/change-of-name.htm
Stan
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IF you were looking for someone and it is believed that they may have changed their name by deed poll, how would you go about finding out/proving it - in UK?
Do you know that there actually was a Deed Poll?
That is a costly, legal affair - and very few people who changed their name bothered! ;D
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Thanks for all those replies - and for the link, Stan. Very interesting!
So if, for example, someone wanted to join the armed services, wouldn't they have to provide proof of their birth etc. ??
If they'd changed their name, how would they do that? Would they have to prove they are one and the same person? :-\
I suppose the same query would apply to marriage too - regarding proof of birth age etc.
Wiggy :)
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For joining the Army, I don't think any proof of birth/name/age was required?
Certainly for marriage, it is a relatively recent requirement to provide proof.
It was assumed that if asked, people told the truth!
I am sure Stan will correct me!
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If the person has died you may be able to find the death certificate in both names. I discovered that when I sent off for one.
I grew up thinking a relative went under one name but when a few years ago I sent of for the death certificate it had her original names and surname with a.k.a and the names she had been known under for quite a long time (from the phone books at least before 1938).
Checking the GRO entries afterwards I found she was listed under both names.
I should say she never married and had added the letter E to her surname and also had an unknown surname in place of her second name. This I have taken to be a possible man who may have died during WWI so aunty never married but kept her man's memory alive by using his name
Jean
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In years gone by they weren't so preoccupied with proving facts about someone, particularly those who wanted to enlist - which is why so many under-age lads were able to get themselves across to France to die in the trenches during WW1.
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For joining the Army, I don't think any proof of birth/name/age was required?
Certainly for marriage, it is a relatively recent requirement to provide proof.
It was assumed that if asked, people told the truth!
I am sure Stan will correct me!
You did not have to produce any proof. The minister or Registrar accepted what they were told, but Banns and the marriage book in the register office were there to enable the public to raise any objections to the marriage
Today you have to provide proof of identity to get married in a Register Office, for acceptable documents see http://www.rootschat.com/links/0sdv/
As far as I can see this does not apply to a church wedding, but to prevent bogus marriages I expect that some form of identification would be required
Stan
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A summary of the law relating to the preliminaries to Anglican Marriage in England and Wales is given at http://www.facultyoffice.org.uk/Marriage.html
San
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Might be worth trying The London Gazette, Wiggy. I found one of mine with a name change in 1958. http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search
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The London Gazette of 22 March 1927 revealed the name change of one of my father's cousins.
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Thank you all very much folks - some leads to work on there!
Wiggy :) :)
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I found the marriage of a great aunt where she'd falsified her age and married out of town (she'd have needed her parent's permission at the time as she was under 21) The man she married gave a false name - I reckon her parents knew he was a wrong 'un and were against him! The marriage didn't last long and he's been fun to trace through the various census returns with his changes of name!
Would the marriage have been invalid? She set up home and had a family with another chap calling herself by his name. They eventually married when they were both in their 50's presumably thinking hubby number one had died by then. He hadn't! :-[
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One person in my family tree changes his name and surname between birth 1899 and 1911 census, it appears the parent separated so perhaps the mother changed the son's name to her surname but also changed the first name. When this boy married his marriage was registered under both names, thats how we could find him, I couldn't find him registered under his new name.
In another case a man adopted a double barrel surname when he married, his mothers' surname first followed by his father's. The man's father died soon after his birth which was perhaps the reason for doing this.
In yet another case, a man who married a widow with children had her children reregistered under his Surname and this change was added on to the birth register.
I hope this is of some help, Maria
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I had someone who changed his name to his maternal grandmother's maiden name. I think this may have been a condition of his inheriting her money, presumably to keep the name alive.
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Fascinating stories you are all telling!! Makes your trees difficult to follow - but interesting to know that I'm not completely wrong in thinking it could have happened.
- I was asking the other workers in the potting shed this morning what conditions apply here in Aus - they both agreed that we have to show evidence of who you are - both to get into the forces and to marry.
Also agreed that you need to change your name by Deed Poll if you want to do it for ongoing purposes.
Wiggy :)
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Also agreed that you need to change your name by Deed Poll if you want to do it for ongoing purposes.
That's the general perception in the UK, too!
Completely wrong - but most people believe a Deed Poll is required! ;D ::)
So, I would check what the law actually says in Australia.
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- I was asking the other workers in the potting shed this morning what conditions apply here in Aus - they both agreed that we have to show evidence of who you are - both to get into the forces and to marry.
When my father joined up in WW11 (Aust) he lied about his age (making himself 2 years older). This was never checked/verified and his Army records still have the wrong year of birth on them.
It's likely that the situation is rather different today though.
My great grandfather changed his name in Oz - no official documentation. He just started using a totally different surname and was married & died using the new surname. Heck of a challenge to find him but Chatters performed the usual miracle ;D
Good luck with your search Wiggy
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Also agreed that you need to change your name by Deed Poll if you want to do it for ongoing purposes.
That's the general perception in the UK, too!
Completely wrong - but most people believe a Deed Poll is required! ;D ::)
So, I would check what the law actually says in Australia.
Right - that seems to be the next move then -though what I am asking about happened - if it did happen, in UK! But it would be interesting to know for sure what the state of play is in Australia.
Thank you! ;)
Wiggy
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I found the marriage of a great aunt where she'd falsified her age and married out of town (she'd have needed her parent's permission at the time as she was under 21) The man she married gave a false name -
Would the marriage have been invalid?
If the marriage was by banns and no objection was made then the marriage was valid. Marriages of minors, i.e. under 21, without consent after banns were valid, unless the banns had been forbidden by parents or guardians openly and publicly in church at the time of publication.
Stan
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;D ;D ;D
New South Wales ..... it is NOT a requirement that a person needs to formally change their name (by deed poll) for any ongoing permancy arrangements. It has not ever been a requirement for any formal documents to be prepared to organise a change of name in NSW. It is of course unlawful for any person to change their name with intent to deceive or defraud.
NSW written constitution provided for a NSW Supreme Court. This dates from 1823, long before Queen Victoria granted a written constitution to the federation of the six British colonies into one Colony, "Australia". It is only as recently as 1986 that the last legal separation between those six colonies, in particular NSW was formalised, HOWEVER it was even more recent than that that the NSW BDM took on responsibilities for recording 'deed poll' name changes (previously handled by the Lands Department responsible for Title Deeds !) .... NSW Supreme Court decisions (it has authority to determine the NSW written Constitution) were able to be appealed to the UK Privy Council until that 1986 separation. That 1986 separation made Britain a 'foreign power' in respect of the Commonwealth of Australia. It gets quite tangled but laws made in Britain made after 1823 (NSW has its own Supreme Court) have had NO lawful effect on NSW Statute laws since 1823, UNLESS within the written Act as it passed through both the Houses (Commons and Lords) that Act specifically defined that its authority (realm ?? ) was (also) to have effect in New South Wales. (or any colony, or Scotland or etc.... )
Short version of above "English laws did not and do not control NSW laws re deed poll for changes of name".
It is very much lawful in NSW for any person to change their name simply through usage. This would usually take around a year. It is also possible to change your name by the equivalent of deed poll .... this takes an instant. Here's NSW BDM info
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/changeName/changeName.htm (phone for an appointment or snail mail applications !)
"A person is legally able to change his or her name. If a person alters their name or uses an additional or other name with the intention to act fraudulently or with an intention to deceive or in any other way which contravenes the law, they may be subject to criminal proceedings.
A person may use a new name without any formal steps. At common law, a person will not actually change his or her name until the person has used and become known by the new name. Under the Registry's legislation the name is changed once it is registered. "
I have absolutely no knowledge of what happened in the other five former colonies, prior to Federation (1 Jan 1901) or since then either. ::)
Cheers JM
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Well, that is very interesting JM - I will have to look into Victorian legislation now!
My original hypothetical query was brought about by something I was looking for in UK about 1925 - 55-ish - but I am learning all sorts of things - (and I did not give you any time frame in my original post! ;))
Wiggy
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;D no time frame but I covered from commencement of NSW law to the present time, and NSW was afterall the foundation colony :)
I wonder if there's differences between say Scotland and England/Wales ;D 'deed poll' arrangements .... I guess that would need a new thread ::)
But hopefully the following aside will be interesting...
One of my living first cousins (I will call him John, not his name, but for this exercise) was born in NSW (to NSW born parents) in the 1930s. His birth was registered with his father's surname (the parents had married several years before my cousin was born, but questions of legitimacy removed from requirements NSW BDM circa 1935) . His parents had more children after John, all registered in their Dad's surname. John starts school at age five, and tells his teacher his surname. The information he provides is NOT the same surname as his parents, nor his siblings, nor his own birth cert, nor his baptismal certificate (which is the document he used to enlist in the Australian Armed Forces 1RAR, and to marry in NSW). His NSW BDM marriage cert is in the public domain, as the marriage service was more than 50 years ago. Of course, unless someone knew that he had a different surname from his own parents, and from his siblings, no one would find the online index reference. ;D He was not exactly pleased when I sent him an official transcription of his marriage registration.... ::) but he did understand I was only letting him know that it can be found in official records and thus to pre-alert him ::) so all is well between us once he understood that.
Anyways, back to his primary school days.... The surname he told his teacher has not any resemblence to his birth surname at all. The teacher took the word of the child and that has been the surname my first cousin has used ALL his life since then (ie since aged 5 years). Some of the items in his 'new' surname from that time that he still has include :
Public Library Cards, letters and their envelopes sent to him "Master .... ................" School reports, letter from his Parish C of E Rector around the time of First Communion (this has both surnames as opposed to his baptismal cert with just the original) his apprenticeships papers, his enlistment, his marriage etc.
It is only this century that he has come across difficulties with questions about his surname. He blames computerisation and the lack of understanding of the current crop of bureaucrats of the fundamental purposes of collecting information on this century's follies re ID and 100 points .... (in Australia one basically needs to have specific documentation from a number of 'independent' official sources to the value of 100 points to open a new bank account in a particular name).
I also have aunt that changed her surname in an unusual way ....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,620288.msg4691449.html#msg4691449
Cheers, JM