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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: Julie in Ohio on Thursday 04 April 13 21:54 BST (UK)
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I am looking for the family of Betty Irvine who married William Kerr about 1831 in the Newtown, Limavady area. She died about 1844. Her four children, b. 1832-1840/1842 (Oliver, Eliza, John, Alexander) emigrated to the U.S. as teens. Two were accompanied by a Leslie Irwine, 18, laborer, arriving in Philadelphia in 1853. They had a cousin in the city, Samuel Hazlett, b. N/L 1803, d. Philadelphia 1867.
I believe I have identified this Leslie in Philadelphia, first at the home of Irish-born Mark and Isabella Scott (1860), then married to Anna ___, with whom he had three children: Samuel, Margaret Eliza, and Sarah J. Leslie initially was a drayman and later a distiller. He died in 1872 but his widow was still at the same address in 1887.
I am continuing to investigate records in the U.S., but for other reasons I have believed Betty Irvine's siblings lived in Drumacarney and Dungiven. I have discovered that Leslie seems to be a family name among some Irwins in Dungiven. And while Leslie's surname went through just about every spelling variation in the U.S., it began as Irwine and stabilized as Irwin, a pattern I also have seen in Dungiven.
In the 1841/1851 census abstracts I find a Leslie of the right age in the family of Samuel and Margaret Irwin in Ballyness. This may be the same Irwin who is occupant in Dungiven in 1859 GV, but I thought I would toss this out to the Londonderry Irwin researchers on this list in case anyone recognizes Leslie from the Dungiven Irwins or elsewhere in Londonderry.
Thanks,
Julie
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Hi,
The 5 year old Leslie Irwin you found in the 1841 census lived in the townland of BALLYNESS
(not Ballyross) in the parish of Dungiven. As you said this seems to have been a family name and I know that Leslie was used by another Irwin family in the area in memory of a Leslie Irwin who died on 18 Nov 1883. See Proni Wills records:- http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
Regards
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Hi,
The 5 year old Leslie Irwin you found in the 1841 census lived in the townland of BALLYNESS
(not Ballyross) in the parish of Dungiven. As you said this seems to have been a family name and I know that Leslie was used by another Irwin family in the area in memory of a Leslie Irwin who died on 18 Nov 1883. See Proni Wills records:- http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
Regards
The Leslie Irwin who died 1883 was possibly a relative of the Leslie Irwin (c1882-1938) of Ballyness who married Edith Alice Collins and went to New Zealand.
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Hi,
The 5 year old Leslie Irwin you found in the 1841 census lived in the townland of BALLYNESS
(not Ballyross) in the parish of Dungiven. As you said this seems to have been a family name and I know that Leslie was used by another Irwin family in the area in memory of a Leslie Irwin who died on 18 Nov 1883. See Proni Wills records:- http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
Regards
Hi,
The 5 year old Leslie Irwin you found in the 1841 census lived in the townland of BALLYNESS
(not Ballyross) in the parish of Dungiven. As you said this seems to have been a family name and I know that Leslie was used by another Irwin family in the area in memory of a Leslie Irwin who died on 18 Nov 1883. See Proni Wills records:- http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
Regards
Thanks for the prompt response!
Not sure where Ballyross came from, as I have been looking especially at the Samuel and Margaret Irwin family of Ballyness. They had several sons who may be the same as occupants listed in GV in 1859. I have wondered whether their son Leslie might in fact have been the author of the will you cite, with his namesake nephew Leslie Irwin being the son of the will-writer's brother John. That would mean the Leslie Irwin in Philadelphia would be from another, although possibly closely related, family.
I defer to your greater knowledge of the families in this area, however. Leslie Irwin d. 1883 seemed to have sisters who married Cassidy and Ross, and I assume if I worked on this enough I might be able to rule this immediate family out as the source of the Philadelphia immigrant.
There also was a Leslie Irwin who died in 1871 (landed estates probate ) but I have no further information about him beyond the names of his executors.
I find it hard to get a grip on these Irwins, who seem to marry cousins and pass land on to nephews!
Why do you think that the will is from another Irwin family?
Thanks again for your helpfulness.
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Hi,
The 5 year old Leslie Irwin you found in the 1841 census lived in the townland of BALLYNESS
(not Ballyross) in the parish of Dungiven. As you said this seems to have been a family name and I know that Leslie was used by another Irwin family in the area in memory of a Leslie Irwin who died on 18 Nov 1883. See Proni Wills records:- http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
Regards
The Leslie Irwin who died 1883 was possibly a relative of the Leslie Irwin (c1882-1938) of Ballyness who married Edith Alice Collins and went to New Zealand.
I think you are correct; thank you for bringing this up. Clearly Leslie was an important name in the Ballyness Irwin line(s). I have not checked the GV revisions to see what happened to the will-writer's land. My interpretation of the will was that he was leaving it to his Cassidy niece and nephew, but there were several other Irwins in GV who could have been grandfather to Leslie b. 1882, or this Nan's land could have stayed in or returned to Irwin hands.
Thanks,
Julie
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Leslie Irwin born 1882 was the son of Joseph & Jane Irwin.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Gelvin/Ballyness/1524480/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Gelvin/Ballyress/903975/
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Leslie Irwin born 1882 was the son of Joseph & Jane Irwin.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Gelvin/Ballyness/1524480/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Gelvin/Ballyress/903975/
Hmm. So we have BallyRess in Gelvin and BallyNess in Dungiven. And Leslie Irwins in both. Gelvin is a new name to me.
I should clarify that I am connecting Leslie Irvine b. Ireland ca. 1837 to Ballyness, Dungiven only through his aunt Betty Irvine Kerr of Newtown Limavady whose siblings seem to have lived in Drumacarney and Dungiven. I have no direct link yet for this Leslie Irvine to a specific locality in Ireland.
Thanks again.
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I think you are correct; thank you for bringing this up. Clearly Leslie was an important name in the Ballyness Irwin line(s). I have not checked the GV revisions to see what happened to the will-writer's land. My interpretation of the will was that he was leaving it to his Cassidy niece and nephew, but there were several other Irwins in GV who could have been grandfather to Leslie b. 1882, or this man's land could have stayed in or returned to Irwin hands.
Thanks,
Julie
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Hmm. So we have BallyRess in Gelvin and BallyNess in Dungiven. And Leslie Irwins in both. Gelvin is a new name to me.
No, 'Ballyress' is a transcription error- it should read Ballyness. If you look at the scanned image you will see that it does actually say Ballyness-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002823084/
Gelvin is the D.E.D. (District Electoral Division) in the census.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/about19011911census.html#whatcontain
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Hmm. So we have BallyRess in Gelvin and BallyNess in Dungiven. And Leslie Irwins in both. Gelvin is a new name to me.
No, 'Ballyress' is a transcription error- it should read Ballyness. If you look at the scanned image you will see that it does actually say Ballyness-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002823084/
Gelvin is the D.E.D. (District Electoral Division) in the census.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/about19011911census.html#whatcontain
Thank you for your patience with those of us unfamiliar with these overlapping boundaries.
I now see how Ballyross came into this conversation. In the 1841/1851 typescript of young Leslie Irvine's family in Dungiven, in the place for townland "Ballyross" is followed by "(Ballyness?)", which I assumed meant Ballyross was thought to be an error in this context. I don't know how to assess from the typescript which would be in error -- the parish or the townland.
I spent some time looking at Ballyness (Dungiven) in the GV Revision Books last night. The changing ownership patterns fit neatly with the wills and other records of life events of Irwins and kin that I have been examining, but one thing surprises me if young Leslie Irwin's family was indeed in Ballyness and not Ballyross. He had four older brothers alive in 1851 (John, Sam, William, and Bob). Names corresponding to the father (Samuel Sr.) and all five sons (John, Sam. Jr., William, and Robert -- the miller, who may not be "Bob" as well as a Leslie) appear in GV, with Leslie appearing remarkably prosperous -- especially for a 5th son.
I am inclined to believe this Leslie Irwin (who died in 1884 with his land disposed of per his will) was not the 15 year old in 1851. (But perhaps he received a windfall inheritance for being the namesake of an earlier Leslie!) I have not yet looked for earlier mentions of a Leslie Irwin in Ballyness, nor have I tried to see when Robert Irwin was first listed as a miller. Robert interests me as I understand he later was at Roe Mills and I am looking for Irwin / Irvine connections among Ballyness and the Limavady and Ballykelly areas.
I have been meaning to ask what "office" or "offices" might be in the brief land descriptions, and now I find "herds" along with home, office, and land. Can anyone enlighten me?
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Hi
"offices" in the Ballyness area would be farmyard buildings, i.e. barn, stable, piggery, byre etc.
"Herds " would refer to a herdsmans house, usually built in an isolated ares where sheep would be grazed.
Regards
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Thank you so much. So someone who had herd(s) but not home or offices or land might have been a young man living at home who grazed sheep on someone else's property? This might explain why at least some of Samuel and Margaret's sons could have stayed in Ballyness, at least for a while.
I believe I have just established a link between the Leslie Irwin who went to Philadelphia and Irwins and Morrisons (and Stewarts?) in Commerce, Oakland, Michigan. It is through Jane Kearns / Carnes b. Ireland 1799/1800 living with Leslie Irwin's widow and children in 1880 and a William Kerns b. Ireland 1858 living with Leslie and family in 1870. Jane Carnes was living in a household of Andrew Carnes in Commerce, Michigan in 1860, with a Morrison daughter in the household. James (age 56)?and Martha Morrison b. Ireland are living next door.
The Kearns name is unfamiliar to me (unless it's a variant of Kerr), but I do know that Irwin researchers who have ties to Morrison and Stewart will be interested in this, and it makes the origin of Leslie Irwin of Philadelphia of more general interest. I will consult with Barb (radnor37) and start a new thread if this holds up.
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Julie,
I have connections to Stewarts of Ballyness and the neighbouring townland of Derryork as well as Irwins and Morrisons of Derryork. The only connection I can find with these families and the United States is three Morrison brothers who emigrated but they lived in New Jersey and they went in the late 1800s. Their father emigrated as well, married a Dungiven lady in Philadelphia and returned home after the marriage.
The herdsman would more likely have been employed by a farmer or a group of farmers and he would have lived in the herd's house with his family. There is the remains of a herds house in Derryork which had two rooms, a kitchen and a bedroom. It lies on the lower slopes of the mountainn called Benbredagh.
Regards
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The herdsman would more likely have been employed by a farmer or a group of farmers and he would have lived in the herd's house with his family. There is the remains of a herds house in Derryork which had two rooms, a kitchen and a bedroom. It lies on the lower slopes of the mountainn called Benbredagh.
This is very helpful. I wondered how tenants who had "herds" but no land supported themselves. It also gives me a picture of a terrain that is different from that of the Roe Valley. The only other townland that I have examined since the revision books came on line did not have herds (or mills) and perhaps was more intensively cultivated by the tenants (leaseholders) and their families without outside help.
I began this quest looking for relatives of Betty Irvine who married into a family of Kerrs who by family lore had owned corn and linen mills in the Limavady area. In looking at the fragments of information that seem to link Betty to townlands, I am seeing a pattern of mills linking Irwins. While this was after her time, Robert Irwin who had corn and flax mills in Dungiven seems to have been at Roe Mills in the mid 1860s and also Drummond at some point. I don't think it is possible for the family lore to have confused Irwin millers with the Kerrs (Betty died in Ireland but her husband and brother-in-law came to the U.S. so would have been the source of the story) but I wonder if she met her husband (son of a Kerr millowner) through an Irwin miller connection.