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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: borewood on Monday 01 April 13 17:09 BST (UK)
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Hello -Iam related to Esther Rantzen and her equally celebrity colourful ancesters-Montague Leverson and Barney Barnato-much interesting chat on all 3. My family tree on my heritage is full of accurate but there are gaps for expansion and clarification. On Leverson there could be dutch sephardi origin to go with my northern ashkenazi roots. This will be sorted-have some clues from rootsweb chat people. My big problem is with Barnato-to whom and when was he officially married-some kimberley south africa references to a Fanny Bees or Petrus and a secret wedding-some references to another uk marriage to an Annie Butt-1892 at Strand london registry office-after a divorce possibly-woolf racing diver son born in 1895 7n a grand mayfair mansion. Any help please here. Anthony Scott-Norman from Hertfordshire UK
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It looks to me as though he married Fanny BEES in 1892 Strand.
Looking at FreeBMD only brings up one possible spouse (Annie BUTTS) but I think the page number for Fanny has been mistranscribed as 1114.
She seems to die in 1943 as Fannie Christina Barnato.
Maureen
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Thanks-Maureen-you are a star
Anthony
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Have you looked in the SA National Archives for info?
I got 192 results on a simple search for Barnato, pretty much all of which are related one way or another.
btw, it helps if you give complete info -- his name wasn't actually Barney Barnato.
Looking at one at random:
1898, motion, James Douglas Logan versus Woolf Joel, executor of estate of late Barnett Isaacs Barnato.
which seems to be a continuation of:
1897, motion, James Douglas Logan versus Barnett Isaacs Barnato.
Woolf Joel's brother was Jack Barnato Joel, a horse man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Barnato_Joel
so there's some family connection there, but the surname would be Joel rather than Woolf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_family
Ah, the wiki page links to an article about Jack Barnato Joel being Barney Barnato's nephew:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70C16FF395A17738DDDA00994DF405B888CF1D3
Indeed, very colourful! (the full article is linked to there)
It may be old news to you, but it may help sort out relationships. Woolf Joel was murdered in SA.
There is all kinds of stuff in SA archives. Another is a list of items held by the South African Jewish Board of Deputies relating to Barney Barnato, dated 1970. And photographs, memoirs, films ...
If you aren't familiar with the SA archives, start here:
http://www.national.archives.gov.za/
Select
National Automated Archival Information Retrieval System (NAAIRS)
then select
All Archives Repositories and National Registers of non-public records
and just search and browse. To see the actual records, you have to request copies from the particular archive repositories in question, which have varying policies in that regard. (I had one ask curtly why my email had not provided a postal address so they could mail me copies free of charge, and another, which held the same document, say I would have to hire a local researcher to get a copy.)
To get the names of BB's children, just do a general search at FreeBMD for the surname:
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
If you get a copy of the marriage certificate (how exceptionally sloppy for someone to have claimed he married the wrong woman in 1892!) it should say whether he had been divorced.
Ah. He was born Barnett Isaacs in 1851:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_Barnato
so I might suspect if there was a previous marriage, it was under that name. In fact, his 1892 marriage was also registered under that name. There are four Barnett Isaacs marriages in London 1876-1889, but given that he went to SA in 1873, none is likely him, unless he travelled back and forth.
edit - hang on - the wiki article says "He was married to Leah (daughter of Solomon) Harris."
But apparently not in England. (For the 1889 marriage in London, one of the possible brides is Hannah Harris.)
edit edit - and that seems seriously muddled. This looks like the actual situation:
http://www.geni.com/people/Leah-Isaacs/6000000003071284013
Leah Harris, born 1816, daughter of Solomon, married Isaac Isaacs and was the *mother* of Barnett Isaacs / Barney Barnato.
The Isaacs family is in Spitalfields in 1861, father Isaac widowed.
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In her autobiography ( "The Wind Beneath My Wings" ?) Diana Barnato Walker gives quite a lot of details of her ancestry.I would not know how accurate the imformaton in it is.She died fairly recently shortly before a TV programme about the section of the RAF for women pilots which she served in during the War was made.
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Thanks for recent informative message on barnatos-am pretty clear on uk/us/south Africa angles but am investigating a dutch link on origins/spelling of name of the related leversons.
Yes Diana BW's book is brilliant-am very proud of her achievements
Anthony
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Hello -Iam related to Esther Rantzen and her equally celebrity colourful ancesters-Montague Leverson and Barney Barnato-much interesting chat on all 3. My family tree on my heritage is full of accurate but there are gaps for expansion and clarification. On Leverson there could be dutch sephardi origin to go with my northern ashkenazi roots. This will be sorted-have some clues from rootsweb chat people. My big problem is with Barnato-to whom and when was he officially married-some kimberley south africa references to a Fanny Bees or Petrus and a secret wedding-some references to another uk marriage to an Annie Butt-1892 at Strand london registry office-after a divorce possibly-woolf racing diver son born in 1895 7n a grand mayfair mansion. Any help please here. Anthony Scott-Norman from Hertfordshire UK
Hello Anthony,
Barney Barnato was married to Fanny Bees twice, once in Johannesburg, South Africa and again in London at the Chelsea Registry office on November 19th 1892. The date of the first marriage is not known, but I have narrowed it down to 1890 or 1891. I have a photograph of Barney and Fanny's wedding taken in Johannesburg by Davies Brothers photographers. This photograph has been handed down in my family from my grandfather. We are distantly related to Barney Barnato.
I am not sure how to insert this image here so you can view it on picasaweb:
https://picasaweb.google.com/104287332002049360568/BarneyBarnatoAndFannyBeesWeddingPhotograph?authkey=Gv1sRgCI2YlrSagaaUwQE#5933203957758417010
Fanny was Barney's only wife. Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation in various books and it has been quite difficult to sort out the fact from the fiction. I am currently writing a book about Barney Barnato and I have done considerable amount of research. I am also in contact with a few of the descendants of the Barnato and Harris families.
Regarding the Leverson family, there is a Monatague Richard Leverson and his son Louis Pianciani Leverson, whose daughter Kathryn Flora married into the Rantzen family on my family tree. We may be distantly related.
Regards from California,
Anthony Davis
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Hello Anthony-thank you very much - I would like to follow up possible connections with you-my site over time is pretty comprehensive on the barnato relatives and Laurence Harris -a distant barnato relative has been helpful here too-he is also on my heritage- a big noise on this and jgs.
Ever since Esther Rantzen tv prog I have enjoyed the barnato histories and will be visiting grave stones soon in Willesden.
Please contact me again on (*) can I put your photo on my tree-don't know how to download to my system.
Regards Anthony- ps do you have a tree and or relationship to Barnato exact details?
(*)Moderator comment:email address removed in accordance with Rootschat policies. Please use the personal message system to exchange this information.
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There's a National Probate entry.
Barnett Isaacs otherwise Barnett Isaacs Barnato,of Johannesburg South Africa and of 10 and 11 Austin Friar's London,financier died on 14th June 1897 at sea.Probate London 4th oct to Woolf Joel financier.
Effects £ 963865 8s 6d
Carol
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This is an interesting topic for me , not so much about Barneys marriage status but about the family . My father in law who has died remembered getting a Green Morocco Leather copy of the Pentateuch for his Bar mitzvah in the mid 1920s . It came from an????? of his fathers who name was Sir David Harris in South Africa .My father in law also remembered a young man by the name of Wooly Harris coming out and staying with his family for a time . Wooly was there to learn about bookmaking . My grandfather in laws name was Reuben Isaacs , his father Woolf Isaacs was born in 1852 in the East End , His father was Samuel Isaacs but I have no idea of his wife or when or where he was born .I understand that Barneys mother was Leah Harris . I am wondering if there is any connection . I feel there MUST be with the Harris family as why would a very wealthy and probably busy man ( sir Davis Harris) bother to send a valuable gift to a boy he had never met in Australia ???Wondering if any of you have any thoughts on this . Marianne
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So hm ... the 1881 census shows a Reuben Isaacs born c1872 in Aldgate, Middlesex, eldest child of parents Woolf, c1850 Aldgate, and Priscilla, c1850 Spitalfields, in St Bodolph Aldgate.
They married in 1871 in London City registration district:
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
and she was Priscilla Lyons.
But in 1851, Woolf Isaacs, born 1847 Aldgate, is the son of Benjamin and Esther. Two people have been correcting Woolf's name at Ancestry, btw, one very recently: from Hoolf to Woolf and then Wolf. They don't state their connection, if any. In 1871, that Woolf is with brother Lewis and sister Elizabeth. Since the marriage was in the same registration district, in the September quarter, i.e. after the census, this could be the right Woolf Isaacs, or not.
There are other Woolfs born either side of 1850, but none has a father Samuel in censuses.
Oh, interesting, though. Reuben may have been enumerated twice in 1881 ... or there are two identical Reubens. Reuben Isaacs, c1872 Aldgate, is with grandmother Jane Isaacs in St Bodolph Aldgate. ... And in fact there were! September quarter and December quarter 1872, in London City registration districts, two Reuben Isaacs-s (not to mention one in the same reg dist in 1873). Well, we seem to have the right Reuben with father Woolf, anyway. I was just hoping that Jane would be Woolf's mother, but no such luck.
Reuben must have been the one who emigrated to Australia, if his son was a young boy there at the time of the gift? Is it possible he went to SA first? FindMyPast
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/passengerListPersonSearchStart.action
doesn't show an R Isaacs travelling to Australia at the right time, but there are voyages by R Isaacs, male with unstated dob, travelling to Durban in 1902 and 1904. But there is also an R born c1872 travelling to Melbourne in 1932 -- several years after the book gift in Australia. A visit home?
David Harris was born in the City of London in 1852:
http://angloboerwar.com/forum/7-genealogy-and-family-research/5314-col-sir-david-harris-1852-1942
Same time and place as Reuben's father Woolf Isaacs.
David Harris's parents were Woolf Harris and Phoebe Romaine, married 1848 City of London:
(and I swear this community was as bad as my stupid Hill clan in Cornwall/Devon with their Jameses and Williams)
http://www.geni.com/people/David-Harris/6000000012646217984
and of course Barney Barnato/Isaacs was born 1852 Whitechapel. And his mother was Leah Harris 1816.
The 1851-61-71 censuses have Woolf Harris born 1827-29, Aldgate, Houndsditch, Whitechapel.
In 1841 in St Bodolph Aldgate, his parents Solomon and Susan are old enough (50+, 55+) to have a child born c1816, just in case maybe David Harris's father and Barney Barnato's mother were siblings. Oh duh, they were, as the link I posted way back, in this thread, shows:
http://www.geni.com/people/Leah-Isaacs/6000000003071284013
Leah Harris's father was Solomon, a general dealer, per her marriage certificate.
Woolf Harris's father was Solomon, a dealer, per the 1841 census.
Not that there couldn't have been two of them.
That connects Col. Sir David Harris and Barney Barnato, assuming one Solomon Harris.
David's father Woolf Harris was the brother of Barney's mother Leah Harris Isaacs.
Now, do Marianne's Isaacs in-laws connect up with Barney Barnato's Isaacs-s, and thus with David Harris?? Or connect with them another way? Or not at all ...? ;)
There's a start, anyway!
Solomon Harris and Susan had children:
- Leah Harris who married Isaac Isaacs and had son Barney Barnato
- Woolf Harris who married Phoebe Romaine and had son David Harris
David Harris and Barney Barnato were first cousins.
... Of course, now we google the names together and see that David Harris was Barney Barnato's nephew:
http://www.sahistory.org.za/dated-event/col-david-harris-nephew-barney-barnato-partner-cecil-john-rhodes-and-cape-parliamentaria
but I don't thiiiink so.
Right, other sources say cousin. I should've just googled first. ;)
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Thank you Janey, some of that I knew but It was very kind of you to do all that research so quickly !! I wish I could find more records of Woolfs birth.i wonder if perhaps they all knew each other at school which was probably the Jewish Free School. They seem to have lived within a very short distance of each other . It just amazes me that David Harris was bothered to send that present given that Reuben hadn't been back to London or in touch in all that time . I wonder if Wooly Harris was a nephew of David's and maybe the acknowledgement of the Bar Mitzvah was a thank you for the time Wooly spent with the family in Melbourne. Wooly maybe was named after Woolf Harris , maybe a grandson ? Bill also said that he had family who were famous in South Africa . This was long before we knew anything about who David Harris was or anything about Barney . We only discovered that Reuben had brothers and sisters when Bill was very old !! Reuben did go to England in 1932 . I have his passport . Wish we knew who he visited.
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My question (one of them) as I was playing with that was: do you have an idea of when Wooly was born, i.e. when did he spend time in Australia / how old was he? I might think "Wooly" really was a nickname for "Woolf".
If your grfather-in-law had his bar mitzvah in the mid-20s he was born not long after 1910. Wooly would have been older than him, as I understand it. There were Woolf Harris births in 1894, 1896, 1907, 1910, 1911. There are Woolf Harris voyages to Australia in 1922 (born c1876) and 1927 (born c1907) (not counting any Ws or unstated first names, of course). I might guess that the 1927 passenger, 20 years old, sounds about right?
His father was Samuel Harris, who was aged 22 and living in 1901 with his grandfather Woolf Harris, born c1827 in Whitechapel. In his household is another grandson called Barrett Harris, born c1875 in South Africa, along with married granddaughter Alice Harris, 24, and her daughter? Phoebe, 3.
So that Woolf is David Harris's father, from my previous post (brother of Leah Harris Isaacs, Barney Barnato's mother), making that Samuel the nephew of David Harris, apparently.
In 1881 Samuel is two years old and living with grandparents Woolf and Phoebe. He and Barrett seem to be the children of Fanny Harris, daughter-in-law of Woolf and Phoebe, but her husband isn't present, aargh. And of course Samuel isn't to be found in 1891 ... but his brother Barnett was with grandfather Woolf in Whitechapel. Woolf and Phoebe also have sons Henry, Alexander, Barnett and John.
With Samuel's apparent brother (or possibly cousin) Barnett born in SA, I wonder whether they or one of them was the son of David?
Seem reasonable? The Wooly Harris who visited was Woolf Harris 1907, son of Samuel c1879, who was a grandson of Woolf (brother of Leah Harris Isaacs) and Phoebe, parents of Col. Sir David Harris.
Still leaves you out in the cold but it could explain the gift from David, if it was his grandson or brother's grandson Wooly who was in Australia.
Ah, hm, going back to where I started: Samuel Harris (father of Wooly) was married to Katie Isaacs (1903 Spitalfields). Is you connection through her possibly??
Lucky us; there were two Katie Isaacs-s born in Whitechapel in 1882. The later one would fit the last census age. But they both show in censuses as the same age. In 1891, one has parents Julius and Deborah and the other has parents Alexander and Hannah. Okay, she is the first, since the second is still with her mother when ours is married to Samuel Harris. Julius Isaacs was born in Russia. So I don't think there is an Isaacs connection with Wooly Harris (except that his great-grandfather Woolf Harris's sister married Barney Barnato/Isaacs's mother).
But we still don't know who the father of Wooly Harris's father Samuel was. And that's where we hit what happens to all of us: gotta get a certificate or three somewhere along the line. ;)
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Going back to the original posting that mentioned about being related to Esther Rantzen and her link to Barney Barnato/ Isaacs.....there is more info on that line here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/whodoyouthinkyouare/past-stories/esther-how-we-did-it_5.shtml
Maybe it will help?
Carol
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Another reason to be peeved that we get only the boring USAmerican WDYTYA here in Canada, until the CBC decides to do another season of Canadians for us. ;)
The Rantzen beginnings are shown most simply here:
http://www.geni.com/people/Leah-Isaacs/6000000003071284013
Sarah Isaacs Rantzen was a daughter of Leah Harris (aunt of David Harris) and Isaac Isaacs / sister of Barney Barnato/Isaacs, but there isn't likely a direct connection there with Marianne's in-laws her descendants weren't Harris or Isaacs.
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Wow Janey , I am impressed. I think the theory of Wooly being related to David is likely . I recon he would have been quite young as Bill was born in 1914 , I imagine that wooly would have been about 20'. I remember Bill telling me that his father didn't want him at the track ,I suspect that Reuben is what many would call a " colourful racing identity" . Bill was brought up very respectably and wasn't allowed to ever follow his father into the racing business.Wooly made an impression on Bill so I can imagine a boy of 10 or 12 being very impressed by a twenty year old can't you ? One of Reuben's sisters was Kate . They lived in Exchange Buildings off Cutler street until about 1900 when they seem to have moved into North Block Houndsditch .
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Well I think you might have it now.
In 1881, Reuben Isaacs 1872 Aldgate is with parents Woolf and Priscilla in St Bodolph Aldgate.
In 1891, Kate Isaacs 1883 London City is with parents Woolf and Priscilla in St Bodolph Aldgate.
She wasn't born yet in 1881, and he had flown by 1891, so they don't appear together in a census.
Just for you to eyeball them:
1881
Woolf Isaacs 31
Priscilla Isaacs 31
Reuben Isaacs 9
Philip Isaacs 7
Miriam Leah Isaacs 5
Rebecca Pearl Isaacs 4
Maria Isaacs
Lousa Lucas 22
1891
Woolf Isaacs 40
Precila Isaacs 40
Philip Isaacs 17
Minnie L Isaacs 15
Rebecca P Isaacs 13
Maria Isaacs 11
Kate Isaacs 8
Samuel Isaacs 6
Sophia Isaacs 1 8/12
Anything else that confirms this is the right family for your Reuben?
There was such overlapping and repetition of names among these clans, it can't be certain that these were the Reuben and Kate in question, without some certificates -- like Kate's marriage to Samuel Harris, 1903, to confirm that her father was Woolf, and preferably birth certificates for both Kate and Reuben.
So your Reuben was the brother of Kate Isaacs, the mother of Wooly and wife of Samuel Harris, the son or nephew of David Harris. Making your Reuben the uncle of Wooly, and Wooly the first cousin of the recipient of the gift from David Haris.
Maybe. ;)
And Reuben's father wasn't Samuel. ;) Or else we've chased a few geese!
Oh, this should do it:
1881 - 10 Exchange Buildings
1891 - North Block
(Unless you were just getting the info from censuses like me!)
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No I think you have done it !!!! That is definitely the family ! .
You have an amazing brain , well done . I would love to find out what happened to all those children . Reuben only had Bill ( his real name was Woolf Allies thanks to him being born in 1914 !). As I said bill didn't even know that he had Aunts and uncles until just before he died whi ch is really quite sad I think .
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At least he wasn't born 15 years later (oops, I meant earlier) so he came out as Woolf Baden Powell or Woolf Mafeking -- but I must admit I've never heard of anyone else called Allies!
I only finished that blasted job a half hour ago and have another one due in 30 mins, but I'll see what I can do with all those other children on the wknd maybe. ;)
We've hooked Wooly Harris to David Harris, but so far we haven't got his mother Kate Isaacs tied in with the Barnato Isaacs. That would be fun if it turned out that way.
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:)Hello . I have been mulling on all this and I suspec that they all knew each other probably at school and maybe as neighbours . I supect that perhaps that is as deep as it goes given that Isaacs is SUCH a common name . It wou;ld be great to know what happened to the other children . I do Know that Samual Isaacs had a son Woolf who was born in 1910 . Sam was an Omnibus driver. How would I go about finding out what happened to young Woolf ??? It interesting that both brothers named their sons Woolf , doesnt speak of a close family does it ?
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Have just seen a performance of "Showboat" by Jerome Kern & Oscar Hammerstein at the Millenium Centre in Cardiff performed by Cape Town Opera which was really outstanding. I have previously seen them at the same venue perform Porgy and Bess and last year a new opera based on the life of Nelson Mandela both of which were very good. Looking through the programme notes for Showboat I noticed that the actor who was very good in the part of Captain Hawks, Graham Hopkins had starred in a South Africa series on the life of Barney Barnato. Presumably Barney Barnato is a legendary figure in South Africa. I am prompted to read up on his life story again as previously my only source of information was Diana Barnato Walker`s autobiography which I read a couple of years ago.
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Well I think you might have it now.
In 1881, Reuben Isaacs 1872 Aldgate is with parents Woolf and Priscilla in St Bodolph Aldgate.
In 1891, Kate Isaacs 1883 London City is with parents Woolf and Priscilla in St Bodolph Aldgate.
She wasn't born yet in 1881, and he had flown by 1891, so they don't appear together in a census.
Just for you to eyeball them:
1881
Woolf Isaacs 31
Priscilla Isaacs 31
Reuben Isaacs 9
Philip Isaacs 7
Miriam Leah Isaacs 5
Rebecca Pearl Isaacs 4
Maria Isaacs
Lousa Lucas 22
1891
Woolf Isaacs 40
Precila Isaacs 40
Philip Isaacs 17
Minnie L Isaacs 15
Rebecca P Isaacs 13
Maria Isaacs 11
Kate Isaacs 8
Samuel Isaacs 6
Sophia Isaacs 1 8/12
Anything else that confirms this is the right family for your Reuben?
There was such overlapping and repetition of names among these clans, it can't be certain that these were the Reuben and Kate in question, without some certificates -- like Kate's marriage to Samuel Harris, 1903, to confirm that her father was Woolf, and preferably birth certificates for both Kate and Reuben.
So your Reuben was the brother of Kate Isaacs, the mother of Wooly and wife of Samuel Harris, the son or nephew of David Harris. Making your Reuben the uncle of Wooly, and Wooly the first cousin of the recipient of the gift from David Haris.
Maybe. ;)
And Reuben's father wasn't Samuel. ;) Or else we've chased a few geese!
Oh, this should do it:
1881 - 10 Exchange Buildings
1891 - North Block
(Unless you were just getting the info from censuses like me!)
Well done Janey
Interesting thread this, seeing as you are all talking about my relatives! Hope you don't mind me corroborating and adding a bit of colour to it?
Colonel Sir David Harris is my Great Grand Uncle. Samuel Harris is my Grand Uncle. Samuel did indeed marry Katie Isaacs 1903. They're eldest boy was called Woolf, born 1907. It is likely that Woolf was named after his Great Grandfather Woolf who died in 1905.
I've never heard him being referred to as "Wooly", so I will ask other members of the family if they have heard of this before.
I'm of the opinion that Woolf left for Australia Abt 1927, although I have traced him living in 38 South Block, Artizans St, Houndsditch, London, 1933.
Reuben Isaacs, would indeed be Woolf's uncle.
The "Barratt" that is mentioned in an earlier post, is Barnett Harris, my Grand Uncle, who was born in Kimberely, South Africa, 1874, the son of Henry Harris and Fanny Fonseca, my Great Grandparents.
Barnett married Alice Phillips and they had one child, a daughter called Phoebe, b1898. She was more than likely named after her Great Grandmother, Phoebe Romaine, who was married to Woolf Harris 1826-1905 and not to be confused with the one you refer to as "Wooly" !!!
I believe the parents of Katie Isaacs 1883-1928 are Woolf Isaacs and Priscilla Lyons.
Regards
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Well I think you might have it now.
In 1881, Reuben Isaacs 1872 Aldgate is with parents Woolf and Priscilla in St Bodolph Aldgate.
In 1891, Kate Isaacs 1883 London City is with parents Woolf and Priscilla in St Bodolph Aldgate.
She wasn't born yet in 1881, and he had flown by 1891, so they don't appear together in a census.
Just for you to eyeball them:
1881
Woolf Isaacs 31
Priscilla Isaacs 31
Reuben Isaacs 9
Philip Isaacs 7
Miriam Leah Isaacs 5
Rebecca Pearl Isaacs 4
Maria Isaacs
Lousa Lucas 22
1891
Woolf Isaacs 40
Precila Isaacs 40
Philip Isaacs 17
Minnie L Isaacs 15
Rebecca P Isaacs 13
Maria Isaacs 11
Kate Isaacs 8
Samuel Isaacs 6
Sophia Isaacs 1 8/12
Anything else that confirms this is the right family for your Reuben?
There was such overlapping and repetition of names among these clans, it can't be certain that these were the Reuben and Kate in question, without some certificates -- like Kate's marriage to Samuel Harris, 1903, to confirm that her father was Woolf, and preferably birth certificates for both Kate and Reuben.
So your Reuben was the brother of Kate Isaacs, the mother of Wooly and wife of Samuel Harris, the son or nephew of David Harris. Making your Reuben the uncle of Wooly, and Wooly the first cousin of the recipient of the gift from David Haris.
Maybe. ;)
And Reuben's father wasn't Samuel. ;) Or else we've chased a few geese!
Oh, this should do it:
1881 - 10 Exchange Buildings
1891 - North Block
(Unless you were just getting the info from censuses like me!)
Samuel Harris 1878-1946 was the nephew of David Harris 1852-1942. David's brother Henry Harris 1850-1939 was the father of Samuel.
Henry and David's father was Woolf Harris 1827-1905
The above is from various My Heritage trees, but I believe it is correct.
As for proof Kate Isaacs father was Woolf Isaacs, how about this from the Jewish Chronicle:
ISAACS. —On the 23rd of December, after a long illness, WOOLF, the dearly beloved husband of PRISCILLA ISAACS, NO. 1, North Block Houndsditch. Deeply lamented by his sorrowing wife and children, also by his daughter, Mrs. S. Harris. Shiva at the above address. May his dear soul rest in peace. African and Australian papers please copy.
The Jewish Chronicle - Dec 29 1905
Jennifer Crockett
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Samuel Harris my Grand Uncle died in 1943, not 1946. Henry Harris my Great Grandfather died in 1906 not in 1939.
Information taken from my own family tree.
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Samuel Harris my Grand Uncle died in 1943, not 1946. Henry Harris my Great Grandfather died in 1906 not in 1939.
Information taken from my own family tree.
I am very sorry.
The wrong death date for Samuel was a typo on my part. The wrong death date of Henry Harris - it is my fault for failing to see that the My Heritage member had "before 1940" for some reason and that had translated to 1939.
I am not generally in favour of My Heritage trees, and I am not a paid subscriber, but I must admit there are some good original sources available to subscribers. They have the Jewish Chronicle archives which are very pricey to have access to through the newspaper itself.
Jennifer
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I'm glad to see I did work it all out properly and hope that helped!
(Of course I recommended that certificates be obtained out of the proper excess of caution, but of course yes, material like published birth/marriage/death notices can substitute, although they might not always be reliable when it comes to things like brides' and grooms' fathers' names. But then neither are certificates. ;))
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Jennifer
No worries. Likewise, I am not in favour of public trees, there's no substitute for hours of research and paying out for documentation. One of the reasons why I keep my tree private!
Did you copy that article from the Jewish Chronicle "Verbatim?"
Kid Curry
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Jennifer
No worries. Likewise, I am not in favour of public trees, there's no substitute for hours of research and paying out for documentation. One of the reasons why I keep my tree private!
Did you copy that article from the Jewish Chronicle "Verbatim?"
Kid Curry
Not exactly verbatim as I could only get the computer generated text which had a lot of spelling mistakes - for example WOOLF was spelled WOLLBT, and PRISCILLA was spelled PRTSCILLA.
That sort of thing makes it hard to search. I knew the burial date so I knew the article was probably about Woolf Isaacs.
It would be lovely if they would open up the archives like the Trove website in Australia which has digitised images and text of many Australian newspapers. We, the public, can correct the text if there are mistakes.
Jennifer