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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Leeroy_2 on Monday 01 April 13 05:56 BST (UK)
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Hi guys,
I'm researching my Great Great Grandfather, John William Sherden b1866. His first wife I understand to be, Annie Maria Kirby, I estimate her birth as 1870 as she lists her age at 19 for her first child, William John Sherden (below).
According to their first child, William John Sherden (b28 Apr 1889) birth certificate they married, 29 Jul 1887 in Sydney. William's death cert. in 1942 and his marriage cert. both state mother unknown. Obviously I've tried all my might to locate a marriage certificate for John/Annie 1887 marriage with many different variations with nil success.
Their second child, Alice Mavis Sherden b1890 - death certificate (d20/04/1891) lists her mother as Annie Maria Kirby. Those are the two children from her I am aware of. (John goes on to have more children with his second wife).
John William Sherden b1866 remarries on the 2nd March, 1897. On this marriage certificate he is listed as a widower.
Obviously I've search all I can for a death notice between 1890 and 1897 with all possible combinations with nil success and a marriage cert. for 1887 with nil sucess. Hopefully someone can help me here :)
Kind Regards,
Leeroy
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Looks like they lived in SIN :-[ :-[
Annie Maria KIRBY died in 1889 with the SURNAME KIRBY.
So may not have ever tied the knot.
Neil
MODIFIED. I think the right name is SHERIDEN :o
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This Marriage ::)
JOHN SHERIDAN + ANNE BRADFORD AT LEICHHARDT 1272/1897
Neil
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I'm just a little confused, she had two children post 1889, it can't be her death, 1413/1889. She is listed as the informant in at least one of those certificates and as the mother post 1889.
And the 1897 marriage is for the certificate I've attached whereby he lists himself as a widower.
I'm assuming it's an argument that possibly Annie Maria KIRBY and Annie Maria Tomah BRADFORD are the same person ? and she's lied bout her surname because they weren't married ?
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I've attached Annie Maria Tomah Bradford's birth certificate from 1878. If this Annie is the same person according to her birth certificate she would have been 11 years old when William John Sherden was born in 1889.
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Mmm are you sure it is the same Sherden/Sheriden fella that married[?] Annie Maria and Ann Bradford?
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On the 1889 birth cert. father is what appears to be aged 22 then on the 1897 marriage cert. his age appears to be 26. That doesnt add up ???
The cert. are a bit hard to read :-\
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Hi Gilbert, thanks for taking the time to have a look. I apologise about the quality of the certificates, I've had to compress the image quality to fit in with the maximum size of 500kb.
In short I am very sure, I have several documents which confirm it's the same John Sherden incl. his death certificate which I have attached. On his death certificate it states his son, Ernest Charles Sherden with a correct age according to our knowledge of a 1904 birth for Ernest.
It's on this death certificate it lists that he has married Annie Bradford.
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No probs about the certs. it still gives us a idea of whats on them.
How long does the death cert. say he was married for?
And the age of the eldest child?
Sorry cant read it properly again :-[
Scrap all the above, stupid me was thinking he died in 1904 when that is when one of his sons were born. Im known for wally moments :-[ Sorry.
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According to NSW BDM he was born to William and Alicia in 1866 making him 58 when he died 1924.
If he was married for 22 years on his DC he married in 1902. There is a fair amount of literary licence with the dates and ages of all this crew?
Neil
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Methinks the two Annies were friends and his wife Annie died 1889 and the next birth was to the second Annie 1890. It is possible she died in childbirth to the birth of William J Sherden in 1889.
Neil
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The informant to John Sherden's 1924 death certificate is the manager of the Hospital so I wouldn't hold much weight to incorrectly recorded 22 years instead of 27 years married.
Interestingly his parents are, William Sherden born circa 1831 and Alice Cookson born circa 1833. They married in 1954 in Manchester, England. I've attached their marriage certificate.
The parents details obviously is contrary to the information on the marriage certificate from 1897 (Annie Morrison & William Sheridan). I can only explain this by saying that Alice Cookson's middle name is Morris. Perhaps when verbally providing the details it's been incorrectly recorded.
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Arh the informant on death certs can have a lot to do with how they are filled out ;D
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Thanks Niel for your ideas, but the second Annie BRADFORD is born 1878. She would have been 12 in 1890. The death certificate for 10 month old Alice Mavis SHERDEN Apr 1891 (616/1891) lists her mother as Annie Maria KIRBY.
But perhaps I should order both the birth certificate for Alice Mavis SHERDEN (25572/1890) that should give me some idea who her mother is. Hopefully she'll be the informant which will eliminate the need for me to order the 1889 death certificate of, Annie M KIRBY (1413/1889) - Maybe I should order a transcription anyway.
I've just had a brain wave, perhaps Alice Mavis SHERDEN was born Dec 1889 and registered in 1890 (25572/1890) and like you said Annia Maria KIRBY may have died in child birth and her death registered in that year 1889 (1413/1889). I know it states on little Alice Mavis SHERDEN's death certificate Apr 1891 that she was 10 months. But obviously their sense of time was severely distorted back then.
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The death cert. for Annie Maria KIRBY should have kids names and would be interesting to see if Sherden was the informant. A pity we cant work the actual dates out on the NSW bmd :-\ We'd be able to see if Annie died around the same date the little one was born. But we cant :-\
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I've ordered the death cert for Annie M Kirby (1413/1889), I've also ordered a birth certificate for Alice Mavis Sherden (25572/1890) I've got in for happy hour so I can get transcripts for $16 just looks like it's a two to three week wait however.
Also I've found a birth cert for Ann Kirby from 1871 (17125/1871) with the same listed parents Ann and Cornelius as the death cert (1413/1889). So the age matches up nicely.
Leeroy
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Can you keep us informed please, i would be interested to know how you go with it :)
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Hi
The bdm numbers change every 3 months , so if you search the year and annie and reg place you shoud see a change in numbers. much easier with a disc.
Muss
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I assume what you mean is the number is sequential within the region of the registration as in first to last.
In our case we talking about the district of 'Sydney'. Now the number is, '1413'. There were 48 people named Annie that died in 1889. The highest registered number for Annie in Sydney is, '2110'. I used the most common name I could think of in, John and search for the district of Sydney. I found a 131 people named John that died in 1889. The highest registered number for John in Sydney is, '2042'.
Now if I have understood Muss correctly this will mean that 1413 is about three quarters through the entries and assuming there was an equal flow of deaths this should mean for a September death ? However, this is an assumption and I NEVER like to make assumptions with genealogy.
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Hi
The BDM were sent every 3 months to the registry
Sydney 1889 John
17 - 978
1003 - 1967
2001-2940
3073-3430
not fool proof but as aguide works for me
Muss
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hi
Death notice of a Annie Kirby September 1889 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13744544?searchTerm=annie kirby 1889&searchLimits=
Muss
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Thanks so much for finding that !! I've saved that file. Appreciate you taking the time to look through Trove !
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Odd that no mention is made of husband and children. It was obviously placed by the Parents/Grandparents but even then without some cause or effect no mention of the others in her life ???
Estrangement perhaps ::)
Neil
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Or maybe not the right death :-\
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Off a tree on the Mundia site
"Annie was admitted into the Sydney Benevolent Asylum as she was only 18 years old, single and pregnant on 16 July 1889. Single mothers usully found themselves here if they could not fend for themselves in the last months of there pregancy. However several weeks after giving birth to her son, Joseph Francis Kirby, whom she named on 20 August 1889, Annie Died at the Asylum on 6 Sep 1889"
Annie Mabel Kirby
1871-1889
Born: Ryde, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Died: Benevolent Asylum, 55 Charles Borromeo, Ryde, New South Wales, Australia
Parents
Cornelius Kirby
Ann Ryan
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hi
Great find so not the correct mother for William and Alice
Muss
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"...William's death cert. in 1942 and his marriage cert. both state mother unknown."
I wonder who raised William if he does not know mother's name....and he is ten when father marries 1897?
On his marriage certificate, what is his occupation...might suggest how long he was with father, who is what....bootmaker, blacksmith....difficult to read.
Who are witnesses on this marriage certificate please....might be family members?
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Hi
There is a John and a William Sherden in the ophan school 1872.
William Sherden dies Newcastle 1868
Alice 1872
If these are the correct parents of John born 1866 , they were not around to look after William J
Muss
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Off a tree on the Mundia site
"Annie was admitted into the Sydney Benevolent Asylum as she was only 18 years old, single and pregnant on 16 July 1889. Single mothers usully found themselves here if they could not fend for themselves in the last months of there pregancy. However several weeks after giving birth to her son, Joseph Francis Kirby, whom she named on 20 August 1889, Annie Died at the Asylum on 6 Sep 1889"
Annie Mabel Kirby
1871-1889
Born: Ryde, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Died: Benevolent Asylum, 55 Charles Borromeo, Ryde, New South Wales, Australia
Parents
Cornelius Kirby
Ann Ryan
1 ) Looks like it's not our Annie Maria Kirby, the mystery deepens.. I appreciate you finding that information re. Benevolent Asylum. Seems very consequential. Seems quite sad set of circumstances, young Joseph dies in the same year he's born BDM death reference, '1463/1889' father unknown for both birth and death.
2 ) I only have William's second marriage certificate. I've attached that transcript. He lists his occupation as a Motor Driver right through from his 1930 AEC electoral through to his death he also lists himself as a motor driver. Documents obtained from NSW State Records from Callan Park Mental Hospital indicate William J. SHERDEN (B1889) his son was heavily involved in visiting his father John and assisting with John's health. Witnesses for William John SHERDEN 1936 wedding - D. Lombo and E. J. Lombo. Appears E. J. Lombo is Emily Jane Lombo Nee Hill (Clara Silas[BRIDE] - Mother).
3 ) I'll get back to you the orphanage. I wasn't aware of that.
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This story is one of those real mixed up one's.
Annie Maria Kirby was actually born at Dubbo, Annie Rebecca To mother Leah Kirby in 1872 no father listed. It is my firm belief Leah was a stolen generation Aboriginal who mothered at least two children to Cornelius Kirby. One being Annie the other Hannah. Leah Kirby married Thomas Hart in Dubbo in 1873. There is a death recorded for the Hannah R KIRBY father unknown mother Leah in 1873 Same time as her marriage to Thomas :o. Thomas and leah Hart went on to have seven children across the back blocks of NSW losing their first child Fanny 1875.
There seems to be a fair bit on the Kirby family (googling) one son became a Knight and war hero.
I believe Conelius Kirby probably owned property at Dubbo as well as in Ryde Sydney where he lived with his wife Ann. They had 12 children between 1861 and 1880. This gells with the TROVE Article on Annie's death.
I don't know yet what the connection is yet between Annie M Kirby and John Sherden but she was not the mother of his two children William and Alice.
Neil
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Off a tree on the Mundia site
"Annie was admitted into the Sydney Benevolent Asylum as she was only 18 years old, single and pregnant on 16 July 1889. Single mothers usully found themselves here if they could not fend for themselves in the last months of there pregancy. However several weeks after giving birth to her son, Joseph Francis Kirby, whom she named on 20 August 1889, Annie Died at the Asylum on 6 Sep 1889"
Annie Mabel Kirby
1871-1889
Born: Ryde, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Died: Benevolent Asylum, 55 Charles Borromeo, Ryde, New South Wales, Australia
Parents
Cornelius Kirby
Ann Ryan
Neil,
Cornelius KIRBY and Ann RYAN arrived on the Mary Pleasants in 1858 from Tipperary. Their daughter Ann was born at Ryde in 1871.
Debra :)
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Hi there,
Some bits and pieces, some questions, and some links that may help.
From NSW SRO online indexes
Index to Registers of Firms :
John SHERDEN, 253 Marrickville Road, Marrickville,Sherdens boot repairs, 30 Sept 1919
Index to Deceased Estates:
William SHERDEN, Marrickville, died 24 July 1918, duty paid 11 Dec 1918
:) May I ask about the chap who died in 1918…. With such an unusual spelling for the surname, was he a relative …. His parents would likely be John and Lily, and his death was registered at Marrickville. :) :) Do you have that Probate Packet?
May I ask about the bootmaker, of Marrickville …. Was he a relative?
From the NSW Electoral Roll, 1903, LANG, polling at Marrickville.
John SHERDEN of Faversham street, was a bootmaker
William SHERDEN of Marrickville Road, was a bootmaker
NSW Electoral Roll 1870 THE BOGAN
Samuel C KIRBY of Hadden Riggs, on the Marthaguy Creek, in the Dubbo Police District
George KIRBY of Obley on the Little River, in the Dubbo Police District.
NB 1870 Electoral Rolls included Males, aged 21 years and over who were British Subjects either by birth or by naturalisation. There were some minor qualifications (you basically needed to have lived at the one location for a minimum period. May I note that ANY person born in NSW was automatically a British Subject, ie Aboriginal Persons were automatically British Subjects when born in any of the six colonies that form Australia. May I also note that it was not compulsory to enrol, and that in the 1870s the rolls were compiled by Police Officers, and the residential qualification was six months. Police officers were among those who were NOT permitted to enrol to vote. (neither were members of the armed forces, nor prisoners, nor paupers !)
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-1/short-guide-1
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/services/family_history/docs/electoral_rolls_1011.pdf
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/research_guides/indigenous/instructions/elec_rolls_1903_1989.html
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/services/family_history/
Fingers crossed I am not confusing you.
Cheers, JM
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I Think thats Ann Kirby possibly Annie Mabel. Who is this.
Ref # 9502/1872 Annie Kirby father not listed mother Leah at Dubbo ???
Neil
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Does not indicate if Ellen is sister to John and William, but John and William are probably brothers.
SHERDEN John 6 yrs 25/06/1872 - NRS - [4/10786]; Reel 3702, Page 123 Protestant Orphan School (Male)
SHERDEN William 8 yrs 25/06/1872 - NRS - [4/10786]; Reel 3702, Page 123 Protestant Orphan School (Male)
SHERDEN Ellen 11 yrs 10/02/1869 Parents: William and Elizabeth SHERDEN NRS 12266 [1]; COD 506, Page 139 Protestant Orphan School (Female)
This John Sherden sounds like your John, and the file would be useful to you. Such files that I have seen had name of person who presented the child for admission, and details of when, where and to whom they were discharged.
Your John is a bootmaker, so he has had better chances than most orphans, who would probably be labourers.
If John is orphaned, and in an institution by the age of six, I would wonder that he knows full names for both parents for his marriage certificate in 1897.
These two children, Alice and William, might appear in baptism records at Catholic church ....near Susan St...Kendall St...Surrey Hills, Leichhardt, Newtown....addresses given on certificates, with names of godparents, and they might be close family members.
On marriage certificate 1897, I can see witnesses as Catherine JAGO (sister of Annie?
4355/1893 JAGO Charles J m. BRADFORD Catherine E LEICHHARDT)
and Fred BRADFORD.
There seems to be a line of writing below Fred's name...are you able to transcribe it please?
And is John's mother Annie Morrison?
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Hi
There is a John and a William Sherden in the ophan school 1872.
William Sherden dies Newcastle 1868
Alice 1872
If these are the correct parents of John born 1866 , they were not around to look after William J
Muss
Okay, I just want to try my best to explain this to help with the confusion of several John William SHERDENs, William John SHERDEN and William SHERDEN.
Now William SHERDEN c1829 came out via boat circa, 1859. I've never found arrival papers for William, I've created a separate message board in search of his arrival, http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=641882.0
Two years later, Alice Morris SHERDEN Nee COOKSON arrived with little Ellen SHERDEN aged 2 on the 7th Jan 1861 on board the British Trident. It states on their arrival papers that her husband was already in Australia. Whilst in Australia Alice and William went onto have three more children that survived past childhood,
1) William SHERDEN b1865 (12086/1865) he never married and died 1918 (11631/1918) -His occupation was the same as his brother according to Sands records which list his occupation as Bootmaker from Marrickville Road, Marrickville.
2) John William SHERDEN b1866 (12283/1966) -d1924 (1924/017016) [He's own main interest in this story as he's the lad that is involved with Annie Maria KIRBY and later Annie Maria Tomah BRADFORD]. As stated before and the basis of this forum, we have no listing of marriage just a mention of this on his son, William John SHERDEN's birth certificate (11991/1889). He's second marriage was to, Miss BRADFORD at Leichhardt (1272/1897). According to my records he had two children with Miss KIRBY,
*1) William John SHERDEN b1889 (11991/1889) - d1942 (7918/1942)
*2) Alice Mavis SHERDEN b1890 (25572/1890) - d1891 (616/1891)
BRADFORD & John SHERDEN
*3) Jack Morris SHERDEN b1898 (13060/1898) - d1917 (5945/1917)
*4) Elizabeth Ann SHERDEN b1900 (4274/1900) - d1943 (12335/1943)
*5) Alice Mary SHERDEN b1902 (33240/1902) - d1903 (2443/1903)
*6) Ernest Charles SHERDEN b1904 (13944/1904) - d1954 (21139/1954)
*7) Elsie Mary SHERDEN b1906 (4502/1906) - d1975 (5885/1975)
*8) Frederick John SHERDEN b1910 (42489/1910) - d1967 (40158/1967)
*9) Sibina Winifred SHERDEN b1913 (41569/1913) - d1970 (14512/1970)
*10) Reginald W. SHERDEN b1920 (???) - d1920 (13147/1920)
3) Elizabeth SHERDEN b1868 (13538/1868) - d1896 (7946/1896) - 3 CHILDREN
4 ) Ellen SHERDEN - b1859 (ENGLAND) NIL INFORMATION KNOWN ABOUT HER ?
***********************************************************************
As stated William SHERDEN and Alice SHERDEN died 1868 and 1872. That did leave, Ellen SHERDEN b1859, John William SHERDEN b1866 and William SHERDEN b1865 without parents. I was unaware of them both being orphans, it simply never occurred to me that they were so young when their parents died.
I've contacted State Records re. Ellen's records, NRS 12266 and William and John's records, NRS - [4/10786]. They have told they are both open records so I'll making a trip in hopefully by the end of the week and I'll be sure to post my results.
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Hi there,
A child did NOT need to be without both parents in order for that child to be admitted to an orphanage.
From the fantastic NSW Resources Board here at RChat (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html )
Sydney Benevolent Asylum Index - Admissions and Discharges 1857-1900
http://www.sydneybenevolentasylum.com
If I am reading the Sydney Benevolent Society’s online index correctly :
Annie KIRBY was admitted 16 July 1889 at age 18.
Joseph Francis KIRBY was admitted 31 August 1889 (most likely his date of birth as his mum was already there)
Annie KIRBY was discharged 6 Sept 1889 aged 18
Joseph Francis KIRBY was discharged 12 Sept 1889 aged 3 weeks
Annie Mabel KIRBY was discharged 30 Sept 1889 aged 18
So, were there TWO lasses aged 18 in 1889, surnamed KIRBY, first name Anne/Annie ??? Well, that could be so, as per NSW SRO indexes (on other hand, Anne and Annie could be one and the same person)
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/searchform.aspx?id=74&new=1 …..
Industrial Schools
Anne KIRBY discharged 1 April 1882
Annie KIRBY, aged 14 years in 1881 (when committal was ‘heard’) …. Parents Patrick and Catherine KIRBY, (of) Dargin Street ….
Cheers, JM
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Does not indicate if Ellen is sister to John and William, but John and William are probably brothers.
SHERDEN John 6 yrs 25/06/1872 - NRS - [4/10786]; Reel 3702, Page 123 Protestant Orphan School (Male)
SHERDEN William 8 yrs 25/06/1872 - NRS - [4/10786]; Reel 3702, Page 123 Protestant Orphan School (Male)
SHERDEN Ellen 11 yrs 10/02/1869 Parents: William and Elizabeth SHERDEN NRS 12266 [1]; COD 506, Page 139 Protestant Orphan School (Female)
This John Sherden sounds like your John, and the file would be useful to you. Such files that I have seen had name of person who presented the child for admission, and details of when, where and to whom they were discharged.
Your John is a bootmaker, so he has had better chances than most orphans, who would probably be labourers.
If John is orphaned, and in an institution by the age of six, I would wonder that he knows full names for both parents for his marriage certificate in 1897.
These two children, Alice and William, might appear in baptism records at Catholic church ....near Susan St...Kendall St...Surrey Hills, Leichhardt, Newtown....addresses given on certificates, with names of godparents, and they might be close family members.
On marriage certificate 1897, I can see witnesses as Catherine JAGO (sister of Annie?
4355/1893 JAGO Charles J m. BRADFORD Catherine E LEICHHARDT)
and Fred BRADFORD.
There seems to be a line of writing below Fred's name...are you able to transcribe it please?
And is John's mother Annie Morrison?
Wivenhoe, thanks for taking the time to look over the notes.
1 ) How do you think would be the best way and possible obtaining baptism records for the Catholic Church around those areas ? Is there a searchable index ? I do think that's a great idea to possible find those baptism records.
2 ) Yes, Catherine JAGO Nee BRADFORD is confirmed sister of our Annie Maria Tomah BRADFORD. It appears there's just two witness the first name is, Fred BRADFORD and underneath Fred it states, Frederick BRADFORD [being his full name] and Catherine JAGO.
3 ) John's mother is not Annie MORRISON. I can not explain this other then his mother is, Alice Morris COOKSON b1833. Perhaps when the details were verbally given the middle name might have been recorded as her surname. I concede this is poor explanation.
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Hi there,
Re the elusive marriage for John William SHERDEN (born 1866)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCB-9XJ Alfred DAVENPORT married Constance Alice PIPER and Constance’s mum was Sarah SHERDEN Most likely this would be NSW BDM ref 3770, please if ordering that mc, please please save your pennies and get an official transcription instead. It is likely the NSW BDM record is full of blanks….. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
But I am looking for that marriage, and pulling thinking cap down harder and harder ….. Assuming it was NSW marriage. I am very aware though that NOT ALL marriages that were registered by the clergy at their nearest court houses (or Sherrif’s office, or where-ever the deputy registrars were operating from at the time) were then recorded by the NSW BDM. I explain ….. Until about 1912, (and only from the establishment of the NSW BDM which dates ONLY from 1856), the registration of marriages conducted by clergy (ie most marriages) was a contentious issue for the Churches who were concerned that persons who were NOT clergy were to be authorised to access sacred church records. And so a long standing dispute raged across decades and decades in NSW Parliament. In rural areas, the deputy registrars were basically part time positions, often ancilliary to clerks at local court houses. The position required quarterly returns to be submitted to Sydney (by the postal service ….. which of course was fraught with issues in itself anyways)….. There was NO regulation to follow up if a district office did NOT submit a quarterly return, so if one got itself lost in the mail (or was not ever prepared, or arrived at Sydney HQ and was not legible) it could well be that the marriage was not registered at HQ. To the best of my understanding, there has not ever been a cross check to establish IF all rural marriages originally registered in local court houses ARE ALL included in the NSW BDM index. I know with certainity that there are marriages that were listed in those local court houses, BUT which are definitely NOT on the index displayed online at NSW BDM. You see, in the 1980s, as NSW BDM was changing over to EDP records, they recalled ALL the local court house ledgers. So back in the pre-internet days when family history searching was not done from an armchair, I had found various marriages registered in rural NSW court house ledgers. I can assure you that some of those marriages simply are not listed on either the CDs/fische or the online indexes. Several years ago together with an archivist at a leading Anglican church within the Sydney basin, we found that there were some 800 marriages that had been celebrated in the pre WWI era and NONE were on that online index. It is only this year (2013) that they have been uploaded to the online index (so they are not yet on Ancestry’s online index either).
Re COOKSON
Would that be the 1924 death of John SHERDEN, registered at Balmain South? The online index has William J for Father’s Given Name(s) and Cookson for Mother’s ….. Index has Cookson CAPITALISED, so it is her nee SURNAME
Some more Questions please ….. (earlier questions I asked are still waiting on answers, please :)
:) From that dc (or transcript of it) what does the “J” represent?
:) And where/when was that John born (as per the dc) (NSW BDM 17016/1924)
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
Some bits and pieces, some questions, and some links that may help.
From NSW SRO online indexes
Index to Registers of Firms :
John SHERDEN, 253 Marrickville Road, Marrickville,Sherdens boot repairs, 30 Sept 1919
Index to Deceased Estates:
William SHERDEN, Marrickville, died 24 July 1918, duty paid 11 Dec 1918
:) May I ask about the chap who died in 1918…. With such an unusual spelling for the surname, was he a relative …. His parents would likely be John and Lily, and his death was registered at Marrickville. :) :) Do you have that Probate Packet?
May I ask about the bootmaker, of Marrickville …. Was he a relative?
From the NSW Electoral Roll, 1903, LANG, polling at Marrickville.
John SHERDEN of Faversham street, was a bootmaker
William SHERDEN of Marrickville Road, was a bootmaker
NSW Electoral Roll 1870 THE BOGAN
Samuel C KIRBY of Hadden Riggs, on the Marthaguy Creek, in the Dubbo Police District
George KIRBY of Obley on the Little River, in the Dubbo Police District.
NB 1870 Electoral Rolls included Males, aged 21 years and over who were British Subjects either by birth or by naturalisation. There were some minor qualifications (you basically needed to have lived at the one location for a minimum period. May I note that ANY person born in NSW was automatically a British Subject, ie Aboriginal Persons were automatically British Subjects when born in any of the six colonies that form Australia. May I also note that it was not compulsory to enrol, and that in the 1870s the rolls were compiled by Police Officers, and the residential qualification was six months. Police officers were among those who were NOT permitted to enrol to vote. (neither were members of the armed forces, nor prisoners, nor paupers !)
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-1/short-guide-1
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/services/family_history/docs/electoral_rolls_1011.pdf
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/research_guides/indigenous/instructions/elec_rolls_1903_1989.html
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/services/family_history/
Fingers crossed I am not confusing you.
Cheers, JM
Hi JM, in response to your post 31 and might I add, I really appreciate your time amongst the other rootschat users. I'll respond to your post 35 in another message shortly.
1 ) the NSW SRO index, that is my John SHERDEN b1866 it has the same address and occupation. I've found the link on the index [2/8549] 34005.
2 ) Deceased Estates - I found that reference too, wow ! Well done looking through the NSW State Records ! I've got a planned trip to Kingswood this week so I'll be sure to pull these records, I found it as, REEL: 3027 ITEM: [19/10205]. Yes to confirm, this William SHERDEN is the brother of John William SHERDEN b1866. This William SHERDEN is born 1865. I'll post his birth and death certificate as attachments. Now what is Probate packet ? I'm unfamiliar with this term and secondly how to I obtain a copy of this ?
3) So when 'The bootmaker' I assume you mean John William SHERDEN, John and William were brothers they were both bootmakers. In reference to John William SHERDEN he was the husband/partner in question with Annie Maria KIRBY. For more information please see post 24.
4) Do you have the link for the 1903 Electoral Roll ? Is this on Ancestry ? I haven't seen this 1903 record before. I'll certainly make a note to my tree.
5) Now the NSW Electoral Roll 1870 records re. the KIRBYs I may have missed something but just to clarify the reference of Samuel C KIRBY and George KIRBY ? I know there was mention of the KIRBYs possibly being from Dubbo in post 29. I assume the suspected birth of Annie KIRBY b1872 (9502/1872). In relation this post, is there a death for Leah HART Nee KIRBY ? Is there any further follow up of this Annie KIRBY ?
JM I'll get to your post 37 tomorrow. I've hit the wall for now.
I've attached William SHERDEN's birth1865 and 1818 death certificates.
Leeroy.
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I believe this is the death you referred to in your last post leeroy.
LEAH HART, MOTHER LEAH, NO SURNAME AT BREWARRINA REF#870/1902
Neil
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Seems a minor or major discrepancy in registrations ???
The online registration for John Sherden at Honeysuckle Point Newcastle in 1866 REF # 12283/1866 disagrees with the birth certificate 1865 REF # ???
Neil
MODIFIED :o Found this ??? JOHN SHERIDAN FATHER WILLIAM MOTHER ALICE REF # 1378 VOL 162/1866
Could there be two :P
OH I GIVE UP MODIFIED AGAIN ALSO FOUND THIS
JOHN SHARDEN FATHER WILLIAM MOTHER ALICE NEWCASTLE REF # 12283/1866
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Sorry, I've attached William's 1865 birth certificate instead of John's 1866. Good pick up. I could say I was testing, seeing if there was any keen eyes out there but it was a mistake :-)
I'll post John's 1866 birth certificate shortly.
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You may want to check these as well I THINK THERE IS SOME NAME CONFUSION.
BIRTHS
William SHARDEN FATHER WILLIAM MOTHER ALICE AT NEWCASTLE REF# 12086/1865
John SHARDEN FATHER WILLIAM MOTHER ALICE AT NEWCASTLE REF# 12283/1866
Elizabeth SHARDEN FATHER WILLIAM MOTHER ALICE AT NEWCASTLE REF# 13538/1868
Eliza SHARDEN FATHER JOHN MOTHER MARY AT MARINE REF # 500661/1864 Possibly no connection.
Hmm could it be that your Mr Sherden is actually Mr Sharden ??? ??? ??? ::) :o 8)
Neil
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Here's John William SHERDEN's birth - 12283/1866 - Death - 17016/1924 (Documents attached).
Now according to William SHERDEN c1831 - d1868 5540/1868 (Document attached).
There's 4 living children (made up of 2 males and 2 females) and 2 deceased females - I believe I have accounted for the 4 living children, Ellen (No BDM as from England) c1859, William 12086/1865, John William 12283/1866, Elizabeth 13538/1868.
Now that leaves two females born and deceased pre. 1868. Obviously they could have been born and died in England between the marriage date 1854 and their arrival c1858. But I will follow up this Eliza, there's a chance it could be of their two deceased's daughters.
It appears BDM have indexed both John William SHERDEN's 12283/1866 as both SHERDEN and SHARDEN and for the other two, Elizabeth and William they were incorrectly indexed as 'SHARDEN'. I've attached Elizabeth's 13538/1868 birth.
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Another name for the files.
SHERIDAN
JOHN SHERIDAN FATHER WILLIAM MOTHER ALICE REF# V18661378 162A/1866
JOHN SHERIDAN FATHER WILLIAM MOTHER ALICE REF # 1378 VOL 162/1866
They sure have a lot of names and entries on NSW BDM
Neil
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html
scroll through and find the links to Christ Church Cathedral’s images ….. I feel you will have success there with alternative spellings ….. And I suggest you go through the images on the Family Register (covers 1820-1899) … There’s also Baptisms, Marriages, Burials from 1826. I have not yet had the spare moments to look there myself for Sherden or variations, sorry.
Cheers, JM…..
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Not sure if you already have this - my brain is full ;D 8)
Buried together at Catholic Cemetery Necropolis, Rookwood
John M SHERDEN, 19, 21/06/1917 SEC*M2*L**487 B
Reginald W SHERDEN, age unk, 18/08/1920 SEC*M2*L**487 B
http://www.catholiccemeteries.org.au/
Judith
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Just to add a little more to the mix ::) I cannot find them on any census in England but did locate their marriage in 1854 in which his name is actually John SHERIDAN. All the rest of names are what has been either mistranscribed or taken down incorrectly from accented speech. I believe as all the others I have come across are of IRISH descent, my expectation is that he is too.
He wasn't born in Manchester ::) and in fact probably wasn't in England until after the 1851 census.
Neil ;D
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RE the 1889 birth cert for William SHERDEN, born at 62 Susan Street, CAMPERDOWN to John aged 22 and a boot maker.
From the Sands 1892 Sydney Suburban Directory for CAMPERDOWN
Susan street – West side
Newtown boundary to University street
56 William PAGE, baker
68 Frederick REES,
64 Wo;;oa, REOD
60 Robert MITCHAEL, van proprietor
62 John PULLEN
66 Reviver hotel, Dougal MCDONGALL
then Brown Street
70 Magnus PHILLIP, bottle dealer
72 William COURTNEY
64 W C WEBB
76 R GARLICK, fuel merchant
Then Thomas Street
James J LESLIE, butcher
So, I then looked in same directory but for Susan St starting in NEWTOWN and although I found it, there’s NONE surnamed SHERDEN (or variations) and NONE listed as boot makers (or similar).
NEXT I tried Sands 1891 TRADE directory for Sydney
BOOT and SHOE manufacturers, AND ALAS ….. (need a smilie face at RChat with a foot stamping thingy) …. From Sanderson to Swyny, not a ripple of a Sherden or variation ….
The Sands directories were closed for entries each October, so the 1892 one closed for entries in Oct 1891, and of course the 1891 directory closed for entries in Oct 1890.
So, I am still searching, and fingers crossed that I will find something tangible soon, and that Irish suggestion from Neil makes a lot of good sense to me ..... ::)
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM, sorry about the delay getting back to you with your two questions from reply #37.
From that dc (or transcript of it) what does the “J” represent?
And where/when was that John born (as per the dc) (NSW BDM 17016/1924)
1) The 17016/1924 death cert. indicates his father as, William John SHERDEN. Now this is the first time I've seen his father's middle name as John, this is not on his marriage cert to Alice COOKSON in 1854 or any of the census records from 1841 and 1851 nor his death cert. I can't explain this further keeping in mind it was certified what appears predominantly by the Hospital Manager which may limit full knowledge of these details. Although it appears his son, William John SHERDEN b1889 assisted.
2) Unusually it lists his birth place as, Leichhardt, inconsistent with his birth certificate. This is also his place of marriage and I could only assume that's it a mix up. It doesn't have his date of birth but lists his age as 59. Appears to be one year out as he would have been 58.
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Just to add a little more to the mix ::) I cannot find them on any census in England but did locate their marriage in 1854 in which his name is actually John SHERIDAN. All the rest of names are what has been either mistranscribed or taken down incorrectly from accented speech. I believe as all the others I have come across are of IRISH descent, my expectation is that he is too.
He wasn't born in Manchester ::) and in fact probably wasn't in England until after the 1851 census.
Neil ;D
Thanks Neil, the marriage is for John William SHERDEN b1866 Newcastle, NSW parents, William SHERDEN circa 1829 with Alice Morris COOKSON circa 1831.
There are two census relating to William SHERDEN from 1841 with name spelt, 'SHIRDON' [sic] and 1851 name spelt, 'SHENTON' [sic].
Not sure if you already have this - my brain is full ;D 8)
Buried together at Catholic Cemetery Necropolis, Rookwood
John M SHERDEN, 19, 21/06/1917 SEC*M2*L**487 B
Reginald W SHERDEN, age unk, 18/08/1920 SEC*M2*L**487 B
http://www.catholiccemeteries.org.au/
Judith
Thanks Judith, the John Morris SHERDEN burial is another sibling, his birth name appears to be Jack. I've attached both his birth and death certificate.
I haven't ordered any certificates for Reginald W. SHERDEN but I believe that to a sibling of John Morris SHERDEN. Both these two brothers are sons of John William SHERDEN b1866 and his second wife, Annie Maria Tomah SHERDEN Nee BRADFORD.
Lee
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RE the 1889 birth cert for William SHERDEN, born at 62 Susan Street, CAMPERDOWN to John aged 22 and a boot maker.
From the Sands 1892 Sydney Suburban Directory for CAMPERDOWN
Susan street – West side
Newtown boundary to University street
56 William PAGE, baker
68 Frederick REES,
64 Wo;;oa, REOD
60 Robert MITCHAEL, van proprietor
62 John PULLEN
66 Reviver hotel, Dougal MCDONGALL
then Brown Street
70 Magnus PHILLIP, bottle dealer
72 William COURTNEY
64 W C WEBB
76 R GARLICK, fuel merchant
Then Thomas Street
James J LESLIE, butcher
So, I then looked in same directory but for Susan St starting in NEWTOWN and although I found it, there’s NONE surnamed SHERDEN (or variations) and NONE listed as boot makers (or similar).
NEXT I tried Sands 1891 TRADE directory for Sydney
BOOT and SHOE manufacturers, AND ALAS ….. (need a smilie face at RChat with a foot stamping thingy) …. From Sanderson to Swyny, not a ripple of a Sherden or variation ….
The Sands directories were closed for entries each October, so the 1892 one closed for entries in Oct 1891, and of course the 1891 directory closed for entries in Oct 1890.
So, I am still searching, and fingers crossed that I will find something tangible soon, and that Irish suggestion from Neil makes a lot of good sense to me ..... ::)
Cheers, JM
Thanks JM, that's great work going over those records ! Amazing.. Is there a link to look through the sands records ? I've seen them through Ancestry but only for relatives names not the ability to search streets.
Secondly, the links you've added for me are great re. 'Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle', unfortunately our family is born, William - 1865, John William -1866 and Elizabeth 1868. It appears the baptism records finish 1861,
1826 – 1837 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605008173551/
1837 – 1838 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157604433014652/
1839 – 1861 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605132739200/
Although the family records appear they may assist,
1820 – 1899 Family Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
I'll work my way through that family register in search of some documents that may help :)
Lee
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Just to add a little more to the mix ::) I cannot find them on any census in England but did locate their marriage in 1854 in which his name is actually John SHERIDAN. All the rest of names are what has been either mistranscribed or taken down incorrectly from accented speech. I believe as all the others I have come across are of IRISH descent, my expectation is that he is too.
He wasn't born in Manchester ::) and in fact probably wasn't in England until after the 1851 census.
Neil ;D
Neil you are correct that the SHERDEN line comes from Ireland. I'll attach the 1841 census where it's listed as, 'SHIRTON'. This document indicates James SHERDEN circa 1791 and Catherine SHERDEN Nee DONOGHUE circa 1791 (these two people [James, Catherine] are John William SHERDEN b1866 Newcastle, NSW paternal grandparents).
Unfortunately although the 1851 census has been located by a member on another forum in reply 3, 'http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=641882.new%3btopicseen#new' I do not have a physical copy of it as I have recently cancelled my paid membership with Ancestry.
Attached 1841 census
Lee
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Good evening researchers, I'm back again, and still researching this mystery. Which remains unsolved. There was some excellent discussion back in 2016 & I really appreciate the efforts of all users. To refresh my story, I'm writing about Annie Maria KIRBY. She was first identified in my family tree as the wife to my G G Grandfather, John SHERDEN b.1866 in Newcastle, NSW. She is identified on the birth certificates of, William John SHERDEN (b.1889 (11991/1889)) & then Alice Morris SHERDEN (b. 1890 (25572/1890)). Alice passed away in 1891, so there's another mention of her then (616/1891). On the BC of Wm. SHERDEN, there is listed marriage of, 29/07/1887 in Sydney (aged 19 YO, born in Sydney) & the BC of Alice SHERDEN lists the marriage of, 27/07/1886 in Sydney (aged 21 YO, born in Sydney).
There was no further mention of Annia Maria KIRBY, until John SHERDEN, remarries in 1897 (1272/1987), where he lists his conjugal status as widower.
Possible updates (I'm keen for your thoughts ?)
- I have located an Annia Maria KIRBY marrying a William Henry READ in 19 Jul. 1886 (1239/1886). I have located the Sydney, Anglican Parish Register record, which lists her birth as NSW, her father as Edward KIRBY and mother as Mary Ann ROBINSON and her age as 21 years of age (I have not been able to locate Edward and Mary's marriage certificate, or any further details involving Edward and Mary.
- I have located a number of criminal records, which may assist with Annie Maria KIRBY, firstly a Australia, Gaol Description and Entrance Book record, which lists a Annie KIRBY (ALIAS READ) with an offence listed of, Prostitute & Riotous on the 26 October 1885. Which appears to have been 'disposed of 10 November 1885.
- I then locate a NSW Police Gazette record, dated 11/08/1886, which lists her wanted, in relation to 'deserting her infant male child, aged 6 months'. She is described as, about 20 YO, red cheeks, fair complexion, light sandy hair, one front tooth deficient, dressed in dark clothes and hat.
- I searched for any records connected to approx. Feb. 1886 (which is about six months before the wanted gazette post) via NSW BDM, I have located a birth registration of a William H Sheridan from the 29/02/1886 (which I have confirmed was a leap year). This child's parent's names are, William & Annie, with a Glebe registration (7595/1886).
- I then located another NSW Police Gazette (which pre-dated their wedding) from the 30/06/1886, where Annie READ, was charged, on warrant, with deserting her infant male child, by Detectives CLOUGH and ROCHLAX. Ordered to be taken to the Benevolent Asylum.
I wonder if this marriage to William Henry READ could be connected ?
Lee
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RE the 1889 birth cert for William SHERDEN, born at 62 Susan Street, CAMPERDOWN to John aged 22 and a boot maker.
From the Sands 1892 Sydney Suburban Directory for CAMPERDOWN
Susan street – West side
Newtown boundary to University street
56 William PAGE, baker
68 Frederick REES,
64 Wo;;oa, REOD
60 Robert MITCHAEL, van proprietor
62 John PULLEN
66 Reviver hotel, Dougal MCDONGALL
then Brown Street
70 Magnus PHILLIP, bottle dealer
72 William COURTNEY
64 W C WEBB
76 R GARLICK, fuel merchant
Then Thomas Street
James J LESLIE, butcher
So, I then looked in same directory but for Susan St starting in NEWTOWN and although I found it, there’s NONE surnamed SHERDEN (or variations) and NONE listed as boot makers (or similar).
NEXT I tried Sands 1891 TRADE directory for Sydney
BOOT and SHOE manufacturers, AND ALAS ….. (need a smilie face at RChat with a foot stamping thingy) …. From Sanderson to Swyny, not a ripple of a Sherden or variation ….
The Sands directories were closed for entries each October, so the 1892 one closed for entries in Oct 1891, and of course the 1891 directory closed for entries in Oct 1890.
So, I am still searching, and fingers crossed that I will find something tangible soon, and that Irish suggestion from Neil makes a lot of good sense to me ..... ::)
Cheers, JM
Morning JM,
I hope you’re well. You were a great help before. My search for KIRBY continues. I recall some assistance you offered for the 62 Susan St, Camperdown. Which gave us an unusual result. I thought I might list some other addresses I located on the certificates beneath if time allowed for you to assist ?
1) Residence: Stanley St, Woolloomooloo (KIRBY’s 19/7/1886 MC to READ);
2) Residence: 62 Susan Street, Camperdown (Wm. SHERDEN 28/4/1889 BC);
3) Location of birth: 4 Devonshire St, Sydney (Daughter Alice Morris SHERDEN 4/07/1890 BC);
4) Residence: 3 Yaralla St, Newtown (Daughter Alice Morris SHERDEN 4/07/1890 BC);
5) Residence: 10 Kendall St, Surry Hills (Daughter Alice Morris SHERDEN 20/04/1891 DC).
6) John SHERDEN residence: 24 Pearle St, Newtown (Sands 1892 record).
7) John SHERDEN residence: Leichhardt (1897 marriage certificate to 2nd wife Annie BRADFORD).
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Hello Leeroy_2, unfortunately majm has not been active on here since June 2022.
The Sydney Sands Directory is free to search:
https://archives.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/nodes/view/495003