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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: TQ1962 on Wednesday 27 March 13 23:28 GMT (UK)
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After a couple of years searching, I still cannot find any records of my great grandmother to her 1st husband John Quinn of Shankill....I believe around 1902/3. They had a son Michael Quinn born on 1st September 1903. By the census of 1911, she had remarried to John Butler. The census record shows they had been married under a year at the time the census was taken.
Also cannot find anything as to whether John Quinn had died and that she was widowed when she married John Butler.
Any help in locating any of these records would be greatly received.
Thank you,
Tracy.
P.S. I live in London, so cannot get to the many places that records are held just yet :(
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Have you looked here
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1408347
You would have to first look at marriages just in your grandmothers name (maiden name) then see if any match to a John Quinn in the same year/qtr and reference
She will have re-married as Quinn so use the same procedure to search for her marriage to Butler
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I will try that Carol, but the site is having technical difficulties at the moment!
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Hi
I had no problems getting in before I posted that link and can get in now using the link
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I got onto Familysearch in the end and still no matches, except for a Mary A Mason born to the same parents (my gg grandparents) 8 years earlier!
I think I may have uncovered a child that passed away.
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where is Mary on the 1901 return and Mary & John on the 1911 returns ?
Do you have a birth cert for Michael Quinn ?
The address/place of birth might help...
S.
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I struggled, and failed, last night to find a match for either marriage (Mary Mason to John Quinn and Mary Mason/Quinn to John Butler) and am wondering if there's a chance that Mary's maiden name was not Mason?
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looks like the family in 1911 at Loughlinstown, which is also entered as Mary's place of birth
Quinn/Butler household (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Killiney/Loughlinstown_Commons/98426/)
A birth registration appears on the BMD Index for a Michael Quinn in the Jul/Sept quarter of 1903 in Rathdown district, which looks like it fits.
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Michael's place of birth is listed as Shankill, so would have thought the marriage would likely have been in the general area - but no John Butler marriage in the Rathdown or Dublin South districts that I see on the BMD index between 1908 and 1911
The is a Henry John Butler marriage in Rathdown district in 1908, but the only cross-match to this seems to be a Jane. Wonder if maybe John Butler & Mary married outside the area ?
John is listed as a gardner so could have moved around for work...
(John's place of birth is given as 'Mountnalow' - doesn't ring any bells...)
Shane
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Possibly John Butler in 1901-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Bray/Newtownvevay/1811860/
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Looking for Mary in 1901 but not sure any of these are her-
Mary Quinn, age 18, born Co.Kildare, husband John Joseph Quinn:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Oakley_Road/1293594
Mary Quinn, age 18, born Co.Dublin, husband John Quinn:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_City/Little_Denmark_Street/1332996
There seems to be no Mary Mason, single, born Co. Kildare in 1901.
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based on the 1911 details, there's a birth for a possible Mary Mason on the BMD Index in the right area and timeframe...
Name: Mary Mason
Event Type: Birth
Quarter/Year : Apr-Jun 1883
Registration District: Rathdown
Volume: 2 / Page: 908
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and just two Mary Mason marriages in Rathdown district during the right sort of timeframe (1900 to 1911) - one Jul/Sep 1905 pg 839, the other Apr/Jun 1907 pg 874.
Neither have any Quinn or Butler cross-matches,
Where did the Mason clue originate ?
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(John's place of birth is given as 'Mountnalow' - doesn't ring any bells...)
Monaloe, near Carrickmines/Deansgrange??
eadaoin
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Thank you everyone for your help :)
*I know that Mary's maiden name was definately Mason as I have lots of her grandchildren still alive....my Dad being one! (My gran had 14 children).
*I know she was in service when she got married and is not at her mother's address 26 Loughlinstown Commons on the 1901 census.
*Her fathers name was Patrick Mason and he died in 1895 aged 55. Mother Catherine (nee Masterton) sister Esther and brother James. All the ladies were domestic servants.
*I will follow up www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_City/Little_Denmark_Street/1332996 as I guess there is a possibility Mary and John had a child that died prior to having Michael.
*Mary was born 16th July 1882 and died21st April 1962.
* Mary Mason, John Quinn and John Butler were all RC.
I don't understand why there are no records of these two marriages.
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either of these could be your mary mason. mary age 18 servant 14 marlborough rd glasthule. or mary age 19 servant 16 clontarf east both 1901 census.dont forget the head of household filled out the census form and could have assumed she was born in dublin. re her marriage i was looking for a great uncles marriage in 1920 for years it had me puzzled till just lately i found it registered in 1946 26 years after they married but i never got to the bottom of that one.
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Thanks for the reminder Dathai.....I know sometimes these things in geneology research are never cut and dried!
The 1901 census:
I think there may be a match between Mary Mason a servant at Marlborough Road, Glasthule, aged 18 and John Quinn aged 25 and a labourer at Sallynoggin Road, Glasthule.
The age for Mary according to her birthdate and when the census was taken would have made her 18 at the time.
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Presume Mary’s Mother and siblings in 1901 (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Killiney/Loughlinstown_Commons/1317999/)
James’ wife was Rosona Davis and listed at 27 Loughlinstown Commons (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Killiney/Loughlinstown_Commons/1318000/);
they possibly married in Rathdown district in 1895 as there is a record for a marriage of a
James Mason but the possible spouses are not listed and there is a marriage record for a
Rosanna Davis in Rathdown referenced: Apr-Jun V2 Page 803
This marriage record should show where they were married and help indicate where to look for Mary’s marriage as she stayed in the same area.
James and Rosanna (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmichael/Tillystown_Town/94382/) in 1911, if not already known to you this may help
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Thanks for the help MyLuck!
Seems I have a lot to learn in regards to genealogy research. Will remember the search for other relations might reveal more clues.
:) ;D :) ;D
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We are always learning and its why this site is great sometimes asking the question can get answer or idea you didn't think of and help break down the walls
In my searches I have found that moving to research a sibling can provide clues, also looking at the sponsors at their children's baptisms and if you are lucky the person who registered a birth will be a grandparent or aunt and state such!
I had a look this morning at Esther as she was not on the 1911 census as MASON
I think she may have married a Joseph LAMBERT in 1907 (Rathdown Jul-Sep V2 P853)
This is based on searching for all four possible spouses with a wife named Esther
This looks like the LAMBERT family (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmichael/Shanganagh/93124/) in 1911
Shanganagh is the the same general area of Loughlinstown
Best of luck - I will look again for Mary's marriages, there may be other reasons that the marriage is not recorded e.g. if John QUINN never existed and was created to cover a pregnancy this would explain no marriage and death record, however the lack of a second marriage record is then very co-incidental!
For the record: Some of the relatives I have looked at in that area married in Dundrum which put them into the Dublin South Civil District
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I have just entered the information into Familysearch.org and came up with two marriages for a Mary Mason in Dublin south.
One in April-June 1901, the other in Jan-Mar 1903. Unfortunately there is no spouse listed and when I enter the same info for John Quinn, there is no cross match :-(.
Yes, Mary's sister Esther married Joseph Lambert. Funnily enough, I have quite a bit on the family as I found a headstone erected in Rathmichael old cemetery by Esther and it lists parents and children that had died also!
I am starting to suspect that Mary NEVER married John Quinn, as he was known as a "bad sort" anyway!
The John Quinn living in Sallynoggin Road on the 1901, appears many times in prison on the 1911 census returns!
Maybe this is him.....
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Still haven’t found a marriage (or two) for Mary!
I did locate a brother you hadn’t mentioned Michael as listed on www.familysearch.org are:
Nov 12 1870: James; birthplace Rathmichael (F) Patrick MASON (M) Catherine MASTERSON
Oct 25 1872: Mary A. ; birthplace Dublin (F) Patrick MASON (M) Catherine MASTERSON
Mar 21 1877: Esther; birthplace Dublin (F) Patrick MASON (M) Cath. MASTERSON
Jan 07 1879: Michael; birthplace Dublin (F) Patrick MASON (M) Catherine MARTERSON
I cannot see a death or census record for Michael
edited to add There is a death in 1881 Rathdown Jan-Mar V2 P907 aged 0 that is possibly Michael
I can also see the death of the father Patrick MASON in 1895 Rathdown aged 45 V2 P847
However I cannot find a marriage for Patrick MASON and Catherine MASTERSON either!
Is there a pattern emerging or was there a church with ghastly records?
I don’t know but I seem to have created more questions than answers so far!
;D
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Cheers MyLuck for the extra info.
I never knew about the brother MICHAEL. Also to say, the daughter MARY A, must also have died as Patrick and Catherine had my Mary on 16th July 1882! Would it have been unusual to re use the same name?
I got my church marriage record for them from ROOTSIRELAND.
15th July 1868
Parish/district of BALLYBRACK.
PATRICK MASON to CATHERINE DOYLE (was she widowed)? both of LOUGHLINSTOWN
Husbands father PATRICK MASON Wife's father JAMES MASTERSON
Patrick from KILGUADE Catherine from BALLYBRACK
Both mother's are un-recorded.
Witness 1: Mary Mason
Witness 2: Simon Brian.
Also, here is the headstone erected by Esther Mason in RATHMICHAEL old cemetery
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/dublin/photos/tombstones/dublin-rathmichael-old/target26.html
As you said, it seems odd that neither marriage is listed anywhere. I know from relatives still living, she was very religious, so would expect everything to be above board!
The search continues! :)
P.S. I also have from ROOTSIRELAND a baptism cert for CATHERINE
No date of birth recorded.
Baptism 29th March 1846
Parish district of BOOTERSTOWN BLACKROCK and DUNDRUM
Father JOHN MASTERSON (on marriage cert it is JAMES)
Mother MARGARET (surname not recorded)
Sponsor 1: Patrick Tanner
Sponsor 2 : Ellen Hugues
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That's interesting as there were more births to Patrick MASON/Catherine DOYLE on familysearch.org
I didn't note them at the time but will relook
The date for Mary A may be a baptism and therefore the same Mary but reusing the name was not unusual at that time
Just heading out but will keep an eye out as I search! My OH also has Butlers but Terenure based
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I think the Catherine Doyle/ Patrick Mason marriage cert is the wrong one >:(
Many similarities.... Masterton for the father and Loughlinstown .
On the census return of 1911, JOHN BUTLER is listed as born in MOUNTRALOW. I cannot find this place in Ireland, but a suggestion was MOUNTBELLEW in GALWAY. I have found a couple of matches that come up on Familysearch, for a birth in 1879, which I believe is his birth year. On the census he was 32, so the date matches.
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This is confusing!!
I don't believe the MASON/DOYLE births have anything to do with the MASON/MASTERSON births as two of the births overlap in dates.
This is possibly the Patrick MASON and Catherine DOYLE listed on familysearch.org who had Margaret (Jul 28 1870), Maurice (Nov 13 1872) and John (May 28 1874) on the 1901 Census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Templetown/Houseland/1797290/) and on 1911 Census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Templetown/Houseland/687826/) as all the births were in Wexford.
This Catherine states that she had 9 children of which only four were still alive, three are listed at home in 1911; Andrew, Peter and Mary which could leave scope for the others to be siblings. :-\
She also states that she is 50 years married which does not tie in with the 1868 marriage but I have come across census returns that show the total number of years married if married twice! Doesn’t help researching!!!
As you are sure that Esther is correct as a relative, and she is shown as having a mother named Catherine on the 1901 census, this ties in with the birth shown on familysearch.org and Rootsireland.ie which shows her born in 1877 to Catherine Masterson, however there is a second birth at that time in Rathdown on the civil records; Esther MASON (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBQ2-SMQ) Rathdown Apr-Jun 1879 V2 P1000 which is not shown on familysearch.org or Rootsireland.ie. It would be worth investing in this certificate to see if the mother was a Catherine as well, which could mean that the MASTERSON/DOYLE connection is not correct, noting that there is an Esther MASON aged 20 living in Stillorgan in 1901 which may be this second Esther.
I had thought finding a brother Michael in light of Mary calling her son Michael QUINN was a breakthrough but maybe not!
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Hello MyLuck
The MASON?/DOYLE connection is completely wrong. I realised that today.
My MARY MASON'S sister ESTHER definitely married JOE LAMBERT. My dad talks of them and we have the photos of Mary and Essie when they were newly married with their children playing on Shankill beach. The two families were closely intertwined and were living in Shankill where my dad and his siblings were born and grew up.
Granny Butler (as known after she married Jack) even had 4 of the Quinn children live with her as the family grew larger.
Essie took in a nurse child called Peter Dean.
So I have confused things! As if they were not confusing enough! LOL.....
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I got my church marriage record for them from ROOTSIRELAND.
15th July 1868
Parish/district of BALLYBRACK.
PATRICK MASON to CATHERINE DOYLE (was she widowed)? both of LOUGHLINSTOWN
Husbands father PATRICK MASON Wife's father JAMES MASTERSON
Patrick from KILGUADE Catherine from BALLYBRACK
Both mother's are un-recorded.
Witness 1: Mary Mason
Witness 2: Simon Brian.
Don't rule out this marriage until you confirm by getting a birth cert for either Mary and/or Esther
The cert will confirm their mother's maiden name
This marriage could be correct and there was a second MASON/DOYLE marriage in Wexford
Have you looked at Michael QUINN's baptimal record in 1903?
Priests sometimes wrote notes on records referring to religion, parentage, address, etc.
This is a long shot but could possibly get further info
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ok will do that first.
Thanks for all your help ;D ;D ;D
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Granny Butler (as known after she married Jack) even had 4 of the Quinn children live with her as the family grew larger.
Is Granny Butler Mary MASON?
If so who were the QUINN children? were they John, her first husband's children, or her grandchildren through Michael, or other extended family?
The only additional information I have found is that in 1895 there are a John QUINN of Ballybrack and James MASON of Loughlinstown listed in the court sessions for what looks like the same incident on Dec 8th 1895 in Killiney. They were Drunk and Disorderly and there was damage to a "panel in the barrakcs door". James' charge was dismissed without prejudice but John was fined 5 Shillings. James seems to have had several D&D's over the years and a couple of stays in gaol when he defaulted on the fines.
Ages did go askew in those years and if John QUINN was older than Mary then he maybe the man who died in Rathdown in Apr-Jun 1905 V2 P684 aged 40; there are also a handful of options in Dublin South from 1902 to 1910 with DoB's from 1860 to 1875.
I am not sure of the churches in that area but someone local may be able to tell you if there was a convent with attached chapel or church that closed. This could account for unrecorded records; I found this with St. James' parish in the city centre.