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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: peterstarling on Friday 22 March 13 07:57 GMT (UK)
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I am researching Robert Wilkinson who was killed in Belgium during World War One. I have a post card which suggests his rank was Colour Sgt Major. I also have a photograph of him in uniform but the uniform does not seem to have the appearance of a Colour Sgt Major? Can anyone identify his regiment from the cap and sleeve badge? There is a regiment name on the post card but I don't understand all the abbreviations.
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I think this reads:
C Sgt Major Robert Wilkinson
A Coy 8st Yorks
23 Division BEF
Coy = Company
BEF = British Expeditionary Forces
Cheers, JM
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Not Colour Sergeant Major but Company Sergeant Major, The crown on his sleeve is the rank of Company Sergeant Major
James
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This is all very helpful :) Can you tell me the army unit that the cap badge relates to?
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http://www.1914-1918.net/23div.htm This is a link to info about 23rd Division.
Cheers, JM
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His regiment is the Yorkshire Regiment - 8th battalion
James
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So it appears that this man Robert Wilkinson was a Company Sgt Major with the Yorkshire Regiment, 8th Bn. (A company). I know he died in Belgium and I've searched the CWG site and the nearest I can find is a Lance Serjeant Charles Robert Wilkinson with the Yorkshire Regiment, 2nd Bn. (C Company) http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1 :(
Any suggestions where I might look next please?
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Is it absolutely certain he died??
I've identified a CSM Robert Wilkinson in 8th Yorks, but he survived...
There's a medal card for a Robert Wilkinson, who started the war as Private 13765 in the Yorkshire regiment, and finished as 2nd Lieutenant in the Royal Air Force.
The card shows he landed in France on 26/8/15, which is the correct date for 8th Yorks. It also shows the address for medals to be sent to as 70 Milbank St, South Bank, Yorks.
Then there's an MID (Mention in Dispatches) card for 13765 R Wilkinson, which shows his rank to be Company Serjeant Major in 1917.
The relevant London Gazette entry is here http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30434/supplements/13233
The next thing I can find is http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31072/supplements/14882
"York.R. Temp. 2nd Lt. R. Wilkinson resigns his commission on appointment to RAF, 31 Nov 1918."
And then... http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31669/pages/14925
"Royal Air Force.
The undermentioned are transferred to the unemployed list:
2nd Lt. Robert Wilkinson. 13 Apr 1919."
I must say it's highly likely these are all the same man, and certain that he was still alive in April 1919.
Adrian
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http://www.ww1-yorkshires.org.uk/html-files/introduction.htm
These guys may help?
If you have a date of birth these RAF records may help
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?discoveryCustomSearch=true&_fn=Robert&_ln=Wilkinson&_sd=&_ed=&_ser=AIR+76&_col=online&_dt=RO&image1.x=57&image1.y=13&image1=GO
Ady
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Wow, this is a revelation. The family story has always been that Robert never survived the war. It appears that this may not be the case! I’ll follow up these leads and see what emerges. Thank you so much everyone.
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His address of Milbank St. South Bank, Yorkshire is highly likely to be Milbank St. South Bank, MIDDLESBROUGH, YORKSHIRE.
There may be some help from the Yorkshire Board, if he moved back to the North Riding after the RAF
James
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THANK YOU everyone. I have found my man :)
He was not killed in the war and returned to England as an RAF observer. I now have all the associated family detail including this new family photograph. Thank you so very much for all your help.
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He is not in RAF uniform in that photo. The RAF were formed on 1 Apr 1918 so it may pre-date that. Int hat photo he has been commissioned and is a 2Lt but still wears the uniform of the Green Howards, The Yorkshire Regt. He may well be serving,attached to rather than transferred into, the RoyalFlying Corps. His observer badge is clearly shown as is one medal ribbon. If this photo was post war he would have had at least 2. I cannot make out which award it is but it is probably a 1914-15 start awarded for being in France (or another area of conflict) before 31 Dec 1915.
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Thank you Alan for the info on the uniform. I have a copy of his certificate from when he was Mentioned in Despatches dated 7 Nov 1917. His rank then was Co. Sgt. Major. His RAF records start on the 7 Aug 1918 so does this place the photo somewhere between Nov 1917 and Aug 1918?
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He looks older in this last photo's then the first one
Margp
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I don't know how long it took Army officers with the RFC to buy their new uniforms on the formation of the RAF but I suspect it was not instantaneous and may well have not been before the war ended especially if they were in France.
London Gazette 18 Dec 1918 shows the date he stopped being in Yorkshire regt.
York. JR.
Temp. Lt. T. C. W. Sandland resigns hiscommission
on appt. to R.A.F. 7 Nov.
1918. . ' -
Temp. 2nd Lt. J. Bevan resigns his commission
on appt. to R.A.F. 25 Oct. 1918.
Temp. 2nd Lt. R. Wilkinson resigns his
commission on appt. to R.A.F.
Now you just need to find the date of his commissioning into the Yorkshire regt and you ahve a bracket on the date of the photo.
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Good morning,
He's not wearing a 1914 star as that would have a rosette on the ribbon. The 1914/1915 star was authorised in dec 1918 and ribbons I believe were issued soon after. The actual medals plus war medal and victory medal were not issued until 1920 onwards.
John915
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I don't know exactly when he moved from Co. Sgt. Maj. to 2nd Lt. with the Yorks Regiment but it was after Nov 1917 when he was mentioned in despatches as CSM and before Nov 1918 when he resigns his commission with the Yorks Regiment (on appointment to the RAF). Am I correct in saying therefore, that this photo was taken at some point during that 12 month period?
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Probably but if he was slow buying a RAF uniform it could well be in 1919. It is possible that he had this portrait phot taken of himself upon commissioning but that is speculation on my part. A trawl through the London gazette on line should find that date.
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How long was observer training? He has completed that so depending on exactly when he left the Yorks plus the course length would give you a not-before date.
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I've just had another look at his RAF record which has a note saying that he was promoted to Temp. 2nd Lt on 29 Oct 1918.
It also records his Observer training from the 7 - 24 Aug 1918 and then working as an observer at Eastchurch from 24 Aug 1918.
He left the RAF on 13 Apr 1919.
So what can we conclude from all of this about the date of the photo? :-\
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It now looks to me that this photo was taken after the 29 Oct 1918 but before the 13 Apr 1919 (possibly in Nov 1918, just after he was commissioned).
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That appears correct to me.
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Good evening,
If that is the 1914/1915 star ribbon he has, then it has to be after Dec 1918. This narrows it down to early 1919.
John915
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John,
While the medals were not made until post war the ribbons were worn in 1918. There is a very moving account in the book 1918 about the sight of 2 soldiers lying dead in the autumn of 1918 both with the 1914 Star medal ribbons on their tunics.
Alan
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Good evening,
Alan,
That was the 1914 star which had a rosette on it's ribbon. He wasn't eligible for that as he landed in france in 1915.
The 1914/1915 star wasn't authorised until Dec 1918 so the ribbon would not have been available before then.
John915
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This is my Great Grandfather (my Father's maternal Grandfather)! Robert Wilkinson moved to New Zealand with his wife Henrietta and their two children. They had two more children in New Zealand including my grandmother (passed away in 1997). Thank you to all who have posted information as I knew very little about his career in the Army (although other family members may know more). We received correspondence this weekend of new family connections which is incredible!
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Another photograph of Robert Wilkinson. Two very basic question here but I want to be sure; his rank here appears to be sergeant but there is also a crown or something above his chevrons? :-\Could someone please confirm his rank in this photo.
Also, in November 1917 he was mentioned in despatches as Company Sgt Major so presumably this photo is before then?
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He would be a colour sgt with a crown above the chevrons.
It is one rank below Warrant Officer 2 so would predate his MID.
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Thank you Alan
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This postcard was sent to Robert Wilkinson in 1917 whilst he was serving in Flanders. We have no idea who this soldier is. Any information on the uniform and rank would be a great help. We don't even know if he is British army!
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The head and shoulders photo of Robert Wilkinson (my grandfather) showing him with 'wings' was pulled from a larger photograph of several men in uniform so was not a separate portrait. I'm not sure where the original is, but this reproduction was restored by my mother, Robert's daughter, sometime around 1980. The original is probably still in the family ...
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Hello dearest cousin Vivis! I wonder if, from this, we could find out what happened to the lost Wilkinson brother, Frederick? There were four Wilkinson brothers. The three surviving brothers emigrated to New Zealand together in the early 1920's, and remained close throughout the rest of their lives. There was a strong feeling of kinship between all their children, and that feeling of kinship continued into the generation which Vivis and I belong to. The four brothers were George, Robert, James and Frederick. Frederick was a couple of years older than Uncle Bob and I was told by my father (Great Uncle Bob's nephew Bill Wilkinson) that Frederick died on the Western Front. Dad did not know where he was buried. Can we find him? I am new at this and I really would like to track down any information I can about him. I am assuming he would have been in the same regiment as Robert. We do not have a photograph of him, and nothing much is known about him apart from his date of birth which was 1 July 1887 in Salford and his date of death which was 19 April 1918 in France.
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Hello cousin P - Paula? Phil ? ??
I'm not the expert on the Wilkinson history but have followed recent developments about Robert quite avidly and am thrilled to have found a Belgian cousin.
Your question may be better answered by cousin Peter who has done a wonderful job on the Wilkinson line on Ancestry.com. I do suspect that Fred was also part of the Yorkshire Regiment which during WWI was known as Alexandra, Princess of Wales Own Regiment (the Green Howards post 1920). Robert was a Company Sergeant Major in the 8th Battalion. There is quite a lot of information on the web about the Regiment and its war activity. I would imagine it would be possible to obtain Fred's record through the right channels. Naturally, what fascinates me, is what become of his widow.
Hope that gives you a starting point.
All the best to you and yours ...
Viv