RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: brumby90 on Thursday 21 March 13 07:56 GMT (UK)
-
Hi everyone.
Have been trying for some years to find information on a Thomas SIMMONS who died in O'Connell, near Bathurst in 1891.
Have his death certificate but it gives little.
He married Rachael O'Neil in 1860 in Bathurst.
Have all his children etc but going back from him to his parents I have had no luck. They are listed as Thomas Simmons and Catherine HARPEY but can find nothing on them at all.
On his death cert. it says he had lived in Australia for 54 years which would have meant he came as a 2 yr old in about 1937. I can find no record of this. The best match I can find is a Thomas Simmons who came on the Plantaganet ship in 1857. Not sure if that is him however.
Cannot even find where in England Thomas came from to check.
Any help would be MUCH appreciated
Thanks
-
Hi Brumby90,
The Thomas on the Plantagenet named his parents as James and Sarah and was from Essex.
Where was your Thomas born?
Debra :)
-
Have been trying for some years to find information on a Thomas SIMMONS who died in O'Connell, near Bathurst in 1891.
Have his death certificate but it gives little.
He married Rachael O'Neil in 1860 in Bathurst.
Have all his children etc but going back from him to his parents I have had no luck. They are listed as Thomas Simmons and Catherine HARPEY but can find nothing on them at all.
What information is on his marriage certificate? I imagine that there's quite a number of blanks, however, these are not usually brickwalls, as the information was obtained by the clergy, just not forwarded to NSW BDM's head office.
Here's a thread I did up that may help you find the information that Thomas SIMMONS provided to the clergyman about himself and his parentage when he married Rachael O'NEIL.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
On NSW BDM's online index I can see Thomas SIMMONDS married Rachel O'NEIL in 1860. Ref # 1298/1860. If you don't have a copy of that document, may I suggest you order an official transcription from one of the authorised Agents....
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm#TranscriptionAgent
Cheers, JM
-
Hi there,
1867 National Directory EAST MACQUARIE
W Simmonds, Sofala
T. Simmons, Campbell’s River
J Simmons, Mitchell’s creek
T O’Neil, Turon River
NSW Electoral Roll 1870 EAST MACQUARIE
Thomas SIMMONS, leasehold, Campbell’s River.
William SIMMONS, residence, Sofala
Edward O’NEIL, residence, Redbank
Thomas O’NEIL, residence, Turon River
John O’NEIL, residence, King’s Creek
NSW ER 1878 EAST MACQUARIE
Thomas SIMMONS, leasehold, Campbell’s River
John SIMMONDS, residence, Dark Corner
Job SIMMONDS, residence, Dirty Swamp
Denis O’NEAL, leasehold, Campbell’s River
John O’NEIL, residence, Campbell’s River
Cheers, JM
-
Hi. Thanks for responses.
Debra - dont know where in England he was from. Thats the trouble. No certificates list the actual county. Just England. have both his death and marriage certs. I know the 1857 Thomas came from Essex but I could not find anything else on his family to know if it could be him.
JM - No details at all on either death or marriage certs about where he is from etc. Only parents names. Thats it. I know everything about him from when he got married but that is all. if I knew where in england he came from and parent name it might help but just cant find a thing. Have tried for years.
-
He would be early 20s at marriage, and arrived as a child, so witnesses names on marriage certificate might be family. Who are the witnesses please.
Names of children might repeat names of family, first and second sons are sometimes named for father and paternal grandfather. Can you give details of children please?
-
Do you have an occupation for Thomas SIMMONS. Labourer is not so useful, but if he has a trade it might be the same trade as father and brothers.
-
JM - No details at all on either death or marriage certs about where he is from etc. Only parents names.
Re the marriage cert, is there any notations to say that the NSW BDM reconciled the information from Church Registers? And if so, does it display HOW MANY church registers were consulted to obtain the information?
The marriage would be recorded in two different local registers if C of E, and then a summary of the information forwarded by the Rev to NSW BDM's deputy registrar at Bathurst. (the summary does not include such things as the bride/groom ages, places of birth, or much about their parentage). C of E clergy definitely recorded names of the parents of the bride and groom, occupations of their respective dads, occupations for bride and for groom, place of birth for bride and for groom etc etc etc.
Its getting to the parish registers that will help you find the elusive details that Thomas and Rachel provided first hand to the clergy when he was interviewing them prior to marriage. When you have a moment, click on the link I gave you in my earlier reply, :)
And PS, Welcome to Rootschat. I have only just realised you are new to RChat.
Cheers, JM
-
Hope its ok that I reply to everyone in the one message.:)
yes he was married at about 25 in St Michaels church in bathurst:
Witnesses: Thomas SHALLOY & Elizabeth SHALLOY (not family)
Celebrant: John GRANT
The names of first born children do match as his parents being thomas and catherine (harpey).
He was only a labourer/farmer.
I have no idea how many church registers were used to get info. It was a trancript from one of the agents on BDM.
I will contact the church and see if it is possible to view the records they have on Thomas. Maybe they will have more info hopefully.
-
:)
" Catholic Diocese Registers. The Historic Registers which include baptisms, burials and marriages of the Bathurst Diocese. Download the request form ......."
http://www.bathurst.nsw.gov.au/community/bathurst-library/232-family-history.html
Cheers, JM
-
This is no help in finding when he came and you may already have this.
Funeral Notice (TROVE)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/64229998
Not sure if this is the same Thomas Simmons
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/64231959
Judith
-
Yes the funeral notice is his. Not sure about the fire. I dont know where the woodlands are around bathurst. Would most probably be him though, Trouble is they have changed the names since 1891.
-
Hi,
I think Woodlands would be more over towards Oberon on the old road, not on the Great Western Highway.
NSW ER 1903 MACQUARIE, polling at O’Connell.
At that particular polling place there were 196 people enrolled. Addresses include Woodlands, Rectory, Lagoon, O’Connell, Bloom Hill, Cow Flat, Langsdale, Cox’s Hill and others. When I look at the roll for those polling at Oberon, there’s addresses like Duckmaloi, Kangaroo Grounds, Woodlands, Wattle Grove and others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O'Connell,_New_South_Wales
Bathurst is further west than O’Connell.
In the second half of the 19th Century, O’Connell, like many other localities in that area, was in the police district of Bathurst. O’Connell was in the then electorate of East Macquarie, and in the county of Westmoreland.
In the second half of the 19th Century, Bathurst was in the then electorate of Bathurst, and the county of Bathurst.
National Library of Australia has imaged 1886 Atlas that may help.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,538663.0.html
(See map MAP RaA 30. Part 82. at the naa link :) , it doesn't display Woodlands but it shows several counties and gives a 'big picture' to the districts in the era when your chap was there)
Cheers, JM
-
Googlemap shows the village of O'Connell with Beaconsfield Rd leaving O'Connell and a "Lagoon Rd" off Beaconsfield Rd. Lagoon Rd goes west and then swings northwest to meet Vale Rd which goes on toward Bathurst. So they're in the same general area but may not be the same place/person. ???
Judith
-
May I guess that the birth certs for the children show they were born at Campbell’s River?
1867 National Directory EAST MACQUARIE T. Simmons, Campbell’s River
NSW Electoral Roll 1870 EAST MACQUARIE Thomas SIMMONS, leasehold, Campbell’s River.
NSW ER 1878 EAST MACQUARIE Thomas SIMMONS, leasehold, Campbell’s River
"leaseholder" is a clue, so perhaps it is worthwhile following up on that land, as the application for the lease may (and on other hand may not) have details as to a) ship of arrival and b) native place ....
Campbell's River :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbells_River
Campbells River starts up near Oberon, runs towards Bathurst and is dammed up at Chifley Dam, off Lagoon Road.
http://www.bathurst.nsw.gov.au/environment/water/1335-ben-chifley-dam.html
Cheers, JM
-
Hi,
In case there’s a naming pattern:
NSW BDM online index births:
1861 Thomas and Rachel SIMMONDS , parents to Thomas, registered Bathurst District
1863, Thomas and Rachel SIMMONS, parents to Bridget, registered Bathurst District
1865, Thomas and Rachel SIMMONDS, parents to George, registered Bathurst District
1868, Thomas and Rachel SIMMONDS, parents to John, registered Bathurst District
1871, Thomas and Rachel SIMMONS, parents to Catherine, registered Bathurst District
1873 TWINS to Thomas and Rachel SIMMONS, William and Elizabeth, registered Bathurst District (Sadly, it seems baby William did not survive, as there’s a likely death registered 1873)
1878 Thomas and Rachel SIMMONS, parents to Richard, registered Bathurst District
1880, Thomas and Rachael SIMMONS, parents to William, registered Bathurst District
1883 Thomas and Rachael SIMMONS, parents for Rachael, registered East Macquarie District
My old notes say that East Macquarie commences as a NSW BDM district in 1880.
Cheers, JM
-
In case there's info on the applications for leasehold land .... I looked through Trove and spotted the following two cuttings from 1889....
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/62226695 29 June 1889.
Thomas Simmons, O’Connell, 100 acres, County Westmoreland, parish of Jocelyn.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/62227541 18 Dec 1889
APPLICATIONS DISALLOWED. Thomas Simmons, c p, (cp = conditional purchase) 100 acres, parish Jocelyn, county Westmoreland
Cheers, JM
-
Hi,
Thanks for the replies.
Yes I have all their children and Campbells river is around there. I used to live there so know the area very well. they tended to move the house along the river so it changes over time and there is no real town name for the area so it just went off the name of the river nearby but it was around Oberon generally. Had not heard of "woodlands" before though. Obviously some name change since the 1800's. It seems pretty obvious the fire was with Thomas. No relatives ever mentioned him being burnt etc so thats a new bit of gossip I now have.:)
I will do a search for leases online and see if can find anything at all.
I just have BIG doubts about him being here since he was 2 yrs old as have never heard any mention of his parents being here. the family passed down things about relatives (wrong and right) but never heard anything of them being in Australia. thats why I thought the thomas Simmons of 1857 might well have been him. Which would mean his parents stayed in England. However I have never been able to find out anything about the one from 1857 other then he came from Sussex and came on the plantaganet ship.
-
There's always the Forestry Commission to try too .... errr "State Forests" is their new name. Perhaps they know where Woodlands is/was ....
Oberon has one or three trees in the vicinity :) ... The road in from Hartley actually follows the old road, for quite some distance and (from memory,) on that road is the marker at Mt Blaxland where the explorers stopped and turned back to Sydney, knowing they had crossed the Blue Mountains .... and then the road out to Bathurst is O'Connell Road ....
If you have lots and lots and lots of patience, there's an UNfriendly website with parish maps
http://parishmaps.lands.nsw.gov.au/pmap.html and please if you master that search on that site, please please please tell me in non techo words "how it works" .... ;D
County WESTMORELAND :)
Cheers, JM
-
Possible marriage of Thomas SIMMONS parents:
LMA Bishop's marriage transcript:
Thomas SIMMONS bachelor, labourer of the parish of Windlesham and Kitty HARTFREE spinster, were married in this Church by Banns 3 July 1837 WINDLESHAM, SURREY. By me Henry Thomas Estridge, Curate. Witnesses: George & Anne Finch.
FreeBMD:
SIMMONS Thomas m. HARTFREE Kitty reg. Jul/Aug/Sep qtr 1837 Chertsey #4/25
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Family Search:
Thomas SIMMONS m. Kitty HARTFREE 03 Jul 1837 Windlesham, Surrey, England
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N2D8-JQC
-
;D
I phoned up several elderly rellies and using the combined grey cells I then searched online and found this :)
http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/name_search/extract?id=ujIOjzsEIt
"
Reference: 43839
Placename: O'Connell
Designation: Trig. Station
Status: Assigned 29th April 1977
Previous Name: O'Connell Bald Hill
GNB File: GNB1495
LGA: Oberon
Approx. AGD66 Lat: -33 36 00
Approx. AGD66 Long: 149 45 00
Approx. GDA94 Lat: -33 35 54
Approx. GDA94 Long: 149 45 04
Topographic Map: Tarana
1:100000 Map: Oberon 8830
Parish: Jocelyn
County: Westmoreland
Description: A trig station about 5 km W by S of Lowes Trig Station and about 8 km W by N of Lowes Mount. TS3608"
I think that's the closest I can manage .... I am stoked ! Mind you I still cannot get my grey cells around the Historic Maps section at the Lands Dept's online site. :)
The Trig Maps are on CD at NSW State Records Office, Kingswood ;D ;D ;D
Red Post. That's a grand find Merlin .... do you think I am on track at locating "Woodlands" ?
Many Cheers, JM
-
Hmm Could be. Its possible Harpey was mistaken for Hartfree (or vice versa).
Surrey was also the county I had a suspicion about.
1837 is close to date of birth for Thomas. By age it should be 1835 ish.
Kitty is a name for Catherine isnt it? Not sure.
Tried a search for children on familysearch and ancestor but no luck. You seem to have far better records then I know of online..:)
Does your search show any children to the couple?
-
Red Post. That's a grand find Merlin .... do you think I am on track at locating "Woodlands" ?
Looks good JM ;D
I have to disappear for a few hours got to finish birthday plans for our cousin who will be 106 years old on the 27th March :o :-*
-
Well you totally lost me on that Geography link..lol. What was that linked to? Cant see any Woodlands showing on the link etc. Just mentions Tarana (which is about 20 km's from O'Connell)
-
http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/name_search/extract?id=ujIOjzsEIt back to
http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/name_search NSW Geographical Names Board.... so you can be as informed as poss as to likely parishes with Westmoreland County when asking Forestry Commission for info about "Woodlands"....
GPS co-ordinates given
Cheers, JM
-
Christening for Thomas SIMONDS that would match with the parents marriage I posted in reply #19:
Thomas SIMONDS christened 13 May 1838 Saint Giles, Reading, Berkshire.
Father: Thomas Simonds
Mother: Kitty
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NKKF-BLC
-
Seems to match up but the only problem is the years are not matching the details I have,
100% facts I have:
Thomas died 1891 at age 56. Written on his headstone by his wife.
That would have meant he was born in 1835. three years might be a bit much of a gap.
If...and i mean IF the Thomas simmons who came to Australia in 1857 was him it too would make his birth year as 1835 as this Thomas was 22 yrs old on the trip. Thats why I have wondered if that was him and he did not come to oz when he was 2 as his death certificate says.
IF he came when he was 2 yrs old then should be records of his parents but cannot find any.
This guy is the only one along my live I have trouble finding and he is the main one. Arrrrrr
Do records you have show any Thomas coming in 1837-1840? Or the one who came in 1857...have you any record of him leaving England etc? I cant find a thing to match
-
Hi brumby90,
Came across this post in my hunt for family history info.... I know it's an old thread but hoping you can help me...
My GG Grandfather was William Simmons born 1880 in Bathurst.
Wondering how you went with your search for Thomas' parents and if you have any information specifically on William?
Thanks
-
I think this describes the family of your Thomas SIMMONS and wife Catherine HARPEY -
Bathurst Free Press and Mining Journal 6 Mar 1896 p2
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/63934085?
...court matter ...." Thomas Simmons, of Lagoon, deposed that Draper was his uncle ".......George Draper...
DRAPER - SIMMONS connection -
National Advocate 24 Nov 1904 p2
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/157216440?
..obit for Catherine LAMBERT...of Macquarie Plains, interred O'Connell cemetery.....nearly 90, born in England...married four times...
first husband SIMMONS, one child, killed in quarry in England
second husband DRAPER, two children, died kicked by a horse Campbells River
third husband Harry GEORGE run over by a bullock team Blue Mountains
fourth husband LAMBERT died fourteen years ago
of the three children, only one, Mr George DRAPER of the Lagoon survives
resident of Macquarie Plains over sixty years
FreeBDM SepQ 1837 Chertsey 4 / 25
HARTFREE Kitty m. SIMMONS Thomas
DecQ 1839 Windsor 6 / 525
HARTFREE Catherine m. DRAPER George
BDM NSW
2095/1842 V18422095 26A DRAPER George parents George / Catherine
1562/1842 V18421562 27A DRAPER Elizabeth parents George / Catherine
marriage
1562/1842 V18421562 27A DRAPER Elizabeth m. SHALLERY Thomas @ Bathurst
(they are the witnesses on the marriage record 1860)
death
4124/1879 SHALLVY Elizabeth parents George / Catherine @ Bathurst
marriage
135 / 1851 DRAPER Cathrin m. GEORGE Henry
1220 / 1860 GEORGE Catherine m. LAMBERT James @ Bathurst
Bathurst Free Press 19 Oct 1850 p5
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62216135?
death of George DRAPER....three children..
Empire 27 Feb 1858 p4
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60423093?
death Henry GEORGE...35 years...
-
Looks like Wivenhoe may have solved your mystery. There was a George and Catherine Draper with son Thomas arriving on the Earl Grey in June 1841. The age fits for your Thomas.
Source are the Assisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1828-1896 from State Records NSW.
-
Thank you for those extremely helpful comments!!
We do have Drapers as relatives around that time and as you know it was common for 3-4 groups to marry each other.
'Hartfree' sounds very much like 'Harpey' so it could well have been written down incorrectly on death certs of Thomas Simmons in 1891.
It also states he came to NSW 54 years ago meaning it would have been around 1837 so 1841 is very close which could make it correct as well. It did say he was born around 1835 so 2 years off could also be fine. However his marriage cert said he was 22 yrs old in 1860 thus making the ship of 1841 correct and his age of 3 yrs old correct.!! He was then 54 yrs old at his death making the death cert incorrect.
It would explain why she and the father Thomas Simmons 'disappeared' with one dead in England and Catherine re-marrying.
She is buried in the same section in O'Connell cemetery that all my relatives are.
It sure sounds like it is her but Ill try to get some death certs etc and see if can link and be certain.
Either way she was not a woman you would want to marry it sounds..lol
All in all there are far too many 'coincidences' for your evidence not to be correct. Thomas lived in Campbells River/Macquarie Plains etc
Thanks for all your work people!!!. Amazing.
-
Skyjaded:
The two people below you have solved the problem most likely. This has given me much more detail now. I do have quite a bit of stuff on Williams parents and siblings if you need any?
-
Hi Brumby90,
Would love any information you have on William and his siblings.
Sadly, very little is known about William and his family. William's wife Emily left when their son (Cyril) was young. She disappeared for many years (lots of family rumours as to where she went) and we believe Cyril could have been raised by a family member in Perthville.
Unfortunately my Simmons line were not happy to talk about the past so not much is known.......
Thank you so much for any info you may have.
Skye