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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: mergendy on Wednesday 20 March 13 21:31 GMT (UK)
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I believe one of my ancestors is listed in 1911 as an Inmate in an Institution...can anyone shed any light on what this is likely to mean?
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Possibly a workhouse or asylum. Are there other 'inmates' on the same page? Knowing the context might help (so might the address and name of institution). Have you actually seen the census?
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If you could let us have a bit more information, such as the name of your ancestor someone might be able to shed some light on things. We are not allowed to do look ups on the 1911 Census though. It is possible your relative could be in a hospital or workhouse.
Regards,
Lancs-lassie
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If you're looking at it on Findmypast you can view not only the census return but also the census cover sheet to get the name of the institution (not sure whether this applies to other providers).
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Hi all, and thanks for your interest.
I've ordered a marriage certificate for the lady in question, as she was married in 1916, although by then she's already given birth to my grandfather, whose father I will very probably never trace (yes, this lady is the mystery in our family)...
Her name is Winifred Jones, and I'm waiting for her marriage certificate before I go spending money to confirm what I suspect now...but I think on the 1911 census she's the Winifred Jones who appears as born ca. 1889 in Melksham, living at Semington, Trowbridge, WILTS...
Any more sleuthing very much appreciated!
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Doing a bit of sleuthing leads me to believe that Winifred is probably in the Union Workhouse as that is at Semmington.
... and some information about it:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Melksham/
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I'm not sure if this is your Winifred, but in 1901 there is a Winifred Jones of the right age living in Swindon, but she says she was born there too - a little different from Melksham. She is with father William who is a blacksmith b Crewe and mother Jane and six siblings.
RG13/1905/164//7
The marriage certificate you have ordered should confirm her father's name and occupation. :)
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Am having a bit of difficulty locating this family in 1891. :-\
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Thanks both...the Union Workhouse sounds possible...and the other Winifred in Swindon, I think, isn't mine...
In the 1901 census I think she's the Winifred Jones born at Southwick, and in 1891 the one born at Westbury, Bradley...these two places are so close to Melksham as makes no difference...course that doesn't clear up exactly where she was born, but I'm waiting for the marriage certificate to come through, so I can hopefully get birthdate, place, and father's details...
Also, I don't think imbecile is as bad as it sounds these days...my Dad knew her later in her life and he's never mentioned anything like that...
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Which 1916 marriage cert have you ordered - is it Winifred E Jones/Frederick Russell Jun qtr 1916 Swindon? Obviously a middle name/initial can be very helpful if there is one.
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No, she actually got married in Ormskirk in 1916...I'm on safe ground with that since I know her husband's name (Harry Lott Ellis), and he was posted there during the war...my granddad was also born up North, just down the road from the Kop in fact, at 47 Walton Breck Road...it's a proper riddle all in all though...the other oddity is that I've also got a record of "my" Winifred Jones as being a domestic servant, though, maddeningly, I haven't cross-referenced, so it is possible that she was a much older servant in a house who fell pregnant by the master and went up North to have the baby...but who did she know there, and how? And was it a coincidence that she and Harry were there during the war...did she stay there from my granddad's birth in 1913 and meet Harry after his posting, or return to Wiltshire and meet Harry and go up there with him? Ah, questions questions...anyway, this is something I can look at when I get the marriage certificate and actually find out when and where she was born...then I can start from SOMEthing solid!
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Does it specify that Winifred is an imbecile? Otherwise she could have been in the workhouse for any number of reasons. She or her family may have fallen on hard times - (she may have only been there on a temporary basis). She may have been ill - I think workhouses sometimes looked after the sick (though this may have been earlier than 1911 you would need to check this).
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The WJ at Semington in 1911 is listed as an Inmate, and I understand also an imbecile from birth...if she's the right one though, she's non-imbecilic enough to get married up North 5 years later...
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anyway, this is something I can look at when I get the marriage certificate and actually find out when and where she was born...then I can start from SOMEthing solid!
I trust someone will tell me if I am wrong (as I only have marriage certificates before 1916), but I think all you will get is her age, not her date of birth. You may even be unlucky and the certificate vaguely says she is of "full age" (21 or older), and even then she may have been fibbing. :)
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Hmmm, in that case I'll just have to fall back on father's details...as I don't know anything about him either!
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Looking at the births - there's Winifred Jane b Q1 1888 Highwood, Winifred Estelle b Q4 1888 HIghwood, and Winifred Mary b Q4 1889 Westbury
From then on the spellings are a bit variable so they are easy to miss
ON 1891 I can see Winefred, d of David and Catherine living in Swindon and Winnefred M, daughter of Frank and Jane born and living in Southwick
1901 both these two and the other Swindon born Winifred, daughter of William and Jane mentioned above. David and Catherine's daughter is Winnifred E
Looking at 1911, it is only William and Jane's daughter who is not at home - unless of course somone has recorded her at home as well as in the workhouse.
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Have a look at this list of infirmaties:
http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/text/chap_page.jsp?t_id=SRC_P&c_id=9&cpub_id=EW1911GEN&show=DB
Do you have any alternative Winifred Jones's in 1911 who might be yours rather than the one in the workhouse?
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There is quite a lot of info already posted about Winifred here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,639057.0.html
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Indeed, Alpine, that's how I'm so sure about the Ellis Jones marriage... :) If only all people everywhere were as helpful as rootschatters!
I'm now pretty sure she's the Winifred M from Westbury, and if so, THANKS Mabel for providing Frank and Jane Jones as my possible great-great-grandparents!
Seems a shame to retire now that I'm making more progress (at least in my mind!), but it's getting late here in Berlin...thanks all!
...and so to bed...
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Always a good idea to post the link to previous threads ( where relevant) to save other people going over the same ground.
Terms like imbecile, idiot etc can mean suffering from depression or bi-polar disorder or Aspergers etc - all conditions which we wouldn't use the word "imbecile" for these days.
Hope you've found her now.
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Very useful link to previous thread alpine - thank you. It always helps to know the background behind the 'facts' or 'assumptions' . :)
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This is only a tentative suggestion, as I have no proof, but have you considered the possibility that Winifred was not from Wiltshire at all? Her child was born in Lancashire in 1913, and she married there in 1916. Where was she living for over two years in between? If she was not near her family, who cared for her child?
I know your family story is that she was a servant in Wiltshire, but other points from that story - eg that she married in Wiltshire appear to be incorrect, and there is nothing to confirm that she was born there.
Do you know when she died? She and Harry Lot lived in the Devizes area after they married, and it looks as though Maxwell married there in 1938. Is she the Winifred Ellis who died in Devizes district in 1975 aged 86?
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Hi there Galium, and many thanks for your reply.
Winifred was indeed a Wiltshire gal, as confirmed by other members of the family. You're correct re: Maxwell's marriage to my grandmother, Violet, and my father remembers her living until a ripe old age, so I definitely think 1975 is a good fit on that score, and she was indeed Winifred Ellis living in the Devizes area by then...obviously more detective work is needed here to be 100% sure, not least because of the common surname, and if the marriage cert proves unsatisfactory I can always order the birth certificate of her second son, Harry, which presumably would be more exact about date of birth and birthplace...
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if the marriage cert proves unsatisfactory I can always order the birth certificate of her second son, Harry, which presumably would be more exact about date of birth and birthplace...
Not sure what you mean by this? The birth certificate will give Harry's date of birth and birthplace (obviously) - but not Winifred's.
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My mistake, I'm being inexact...I meant age, not date of birth...you can tell I'm a beginner...
As I know she's a Wiltshire lass, her age at marriage would help me find her for sure, and thus order her birth cert, but if her marriage certificate only says "full age" then I could order her second son's birth cert, which would (I think) give her age then?
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Winifred was indeed a Wiltshire gal, as confirmed by other members of the family.
Family information is really important in our quest, but it is definitely worth keeping an open mind until you have documentary confirmation.
I remember being told confidently by my great-aunt that her grandmother Annie (my gg-grandmother) had been born in Scotland and had kept her Scottish accent all her life, despite living in South America. I drew a complete blank in Scottish records and it was only by a stroke of luck and a lot of perseverance that I discovered she had been born in Nebraska, USA - albeit of Scottish parents who were fresh off the boat when she was born and remained in America for the rest of their lives. So far as I know, Annie never set foot in Scotland.
Do let us know when the marriage certificate arrives :)
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then I could order her second son's birth cert, which would (I think) give her age then?
No, her children's birth certificates will not give any indication of their parents' ages.
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And my beginner's mistakes continue! Thanks for that...
Hmmm, I'll bear what you say about your great-aunt's granny in mind...I'll have to grill my old man properly next time I talk to him!
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, so I definitely think 1975 is a good fit on that score, and she was indeed Winifred Ellis living in the Devizes area by then...obviously more detective work is needed here to be 100% sure,
If she is and as Galium noted she was 86 when she died that would make her birth year 1889. Of course, her birth age may be different for various reasons, ie; forgetfulness, lying and just not sure come to mind.
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See, this is what makes me strongly suspect that she's one of the two Winifred Joneses born in 1889 in Wiltshire...and I'm tending towards the one born in Southwick (Melksham area) who is then listed as an inmate in the Union Workhouse at Semington in 1911 age 22...all the dates, and the areas, fit, and as I say the story told in the family is that Winifred "went up North" to give birth to my grandad...
Of course if anyone is able to check the 1901 census for Winifred (M) Jones (with news on parents Frank and Jane), when she's 12, that would be great...now I think back I also have a vague recollection of her middle name being May or Mary or something like that, but it's so long ago...
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Sorry, I forgot earlier that a 1970s death index entry includes the date of birth - it's 18 December 1888.
If this is the right Winifred Ellis, and the dob is correct, I would expect the birth to have been registered either in the last quarter of 1888, or the first quarter of 1889.
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That birth date only fits Winifred Estelle from Swindon, who probably married there in 1916
For what it's worth, this is the Southwick Winifred in 1901 with her family, who were all born there.
Frank Jones 40 - carter on a farm
Jane Jones 40
Winifred Jones 11
Walter Jones 8
Hilda E Jones 6
Harry H Jones 3
Reference is RG13, 1938, 35, 3.
However, she's not in an institution in 1911
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X725-SC4
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Many thanks for that...maybe the inmate is not my lady then...hmmm...
The reason I was leaning that way was that the family story was always "she was a servant in a big house in Wiltshire, fell pregnant (probably by the master) and went away to have the baby"...if this "household" she's in in 1911 is the a household where she's a domestic servant, then that could be the one...I guess I'll leave this as the last line I go down for sure, cos it seems to be the hardest to unravel...
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That birth date only fits Winifred Estelle from Swindon, who probably married there in 1916
May I ask why you say that?
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i was looking back at the marriage someone else posted up
Winifred E Jones/Frederick Russell Jun qtr 1916 Swindon
Winifred Estelle was born Swindon, and Winifred E Russell died there
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Many thanks Mabel...the search goes on...just waiting for that marriage cert...
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Well well, the certificate finally arrived, and I've learnt not to trust everything I'm told...Winifred wasn't a Wiltshire lass at all, but from Wolverhampton...
From this one marriage certificate I've been able to deduce her parents and her mother's parents based on a bit of detective work in the 1901 census (she was living with her uncle in Norwich, which then helped me find her mother's maiden name, i.e. her uncle's name)
I'd still like to find her in the 1911 census though, two years before she gave birth to my grandfather illegitimately...the search for that goes on, but now I'm two generations further back on my Dad's side, so many thanks to all those who helped me in my quest!
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can you put up all the details from the marriage cert about her father and witnesses and addresses . it may help us find her in 1911.
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can you put up all the details from the marriage cert about her father and witnesses and addresses . it may help us find her in 1911.
Thanks for your help!
Winifred Jones - 27 - Spinster - House Keeper - Red Gables, Formby - Edward Jones - Railway Labourer
Witnesses - J. Pickering, Alice Jones
Marriage was in 1916, so not sure if that'll yield much, but any help is always appreciated...