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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Dianeduvale on Sunday 17 March 13 14:33 GMT (UK)
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Hello, I'm trying to find out Birth and 1901/11 Census for my Grandfather, Robert Valentine Walker, born 14/02/1897 but have had absolutely no luck so far. The first record that I have is his Marriage to Edith Victoria Adelaide Howe in 1919 which gives his Father as Sydney Walker, address The Promenade, Seven Kings with the occupation Physical Culturist (I think, the writing not clear but definitely Physical something) In 1919, Robert was working as a Fuse Engineer at Royal Woolwich. I have no idea who is Mother was or if he had any Siblings although there may be a Half Sister called Winifred Clements. The whole thing has been complicated because we believe there might be a Circus connection as Winifred's Father was probably a Circus Strongman, possibly Ihonart who went by the names of Richard Downs and Sydney Sewell. He opened a School of Physical Culture in Ilford in 1913. I was always told that Ihonart was my Fathers Great Uncle but not sure if the connection is through Roberts Father or Mother. Sorry if this all sounds complicated, I'm writing as I remember things! My Grandfather died in 1945 in Romford/Ilford. Feel free to ask about anything you think I've missed out! I do know that he didn't like his middle name and didn't use it. Thanks, Diane
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Hi
This looks like a possible birth reg:
Mar q, 1903, Edmonton vol 3a p 608
He'd be only 16 at marriage though. No others with that name any earlier that I can see. What age does it give on the cert?
Added - see https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XW4B-X4Y
Gadget
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Hi
This looks like a possible birth reg:
Mar q, 1903, Edmonton vol 3a p 608
He'd be only 16 at marriage though. No others with that name any earlier that I can see. What age does it give on the cert?
Added - see https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XW4B-X4Y
Gadget
Baptism entry gives parents as Herbert and Isabel Annie Walker
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Thanks but its not one :( think he died as a Child.
Ours was 22 in 1919
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That Robert Valentine Walker did live with his parents Herbert & Isabelle and is still there in 1929 at 87 Fox Lane Southgate in the Elect. rols. He died at Stoke Mandiville Hospital in 1964 according to his will.
Jennifer
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Yeah, its not him but thanks >:(
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The Redbridge Local History Libarary Ilford have had an exhibition on Sydney Sewell who set up the club at 229 Heneley Road Ilford. They also have dumbells donated by his grandchildren. There are pictures of him on the web with articles in local newspapers.
Jennifer
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Was probably given the name Valentine due to the day he was born.
Jennifer
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Yes, I've had help from Redbridge :) it didn't really help that much because the Amioy is so very complicated!
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The only Robert Valentine born March 1897 is registered with the surname Allen at West Ham.
But I think he is with his family in 1901 and his parents are Robert & Eliza with siblings Wellesley & Dorothy.
So my suggestion would be that maybe he is registered as a plain Robert Walker and the Valentine was a later addition because of the date.
Other suggestions would be that the year of his birth is not 1897 of his parents weren't married and he is registered as something else.
Dawn
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Yes,we think the Valentine was more of a Nick Name as it never appears on any official documents. Plain Robert Walker it probably is :(
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Hi again Diane
Who were the witnesses when Robert married Edith?
Also: Winifred Clements could be an important clue. What is the source of the suggestion that she was a half-sister? Was she born Clements (or Downs, or Sewell, or something else)? Did she marry? Do you have an approx DOB or any other info for her?
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Hi, witnesses at Robert and Edith's Wedding were his Father, Sydney and her Mum, Mabel so not much help really.
Regarding Winifred, I'm afraid it's a Family rumour that I'm perusing at the moment. My elderly Aunt says that she was told that Win was her Dads Half Sister and I've recently been in touch with one of her Daughters, Blanche, also elderly with a poor memory, and she refers to my Grandfather as Uncle Bob and my Dad and his Siblings as her Cousins. I do have Winifred Clements Marriage Certificate but no Father is given. She was born in 1906, possibly Slough. Her Mothers name was Clements. She may lived with Nuns at some stage I think. Richard Downs aka Ihonart left his first Wife and ran away with Edith Sewell, never marrying her but assuming her last name. There were somewhere between 7 and 13 Children but I have the feeling that if he was her Father, Winifred was the product of a 'fling' between his 2 Relationships. It's very very complicated!!
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For others following this topic, there's an article here, see page 19
http://www.at.ford.com/news/Publications/Publications/2009_FOE/116/@Ford116%20-%20July%202011%20-%20Fordnews.pdf
Seven children mentioned, 6 births seem to be registered as Sewell/mmn Jackson
but we're going sideways, maybe we can get around this somehow
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Yes, that's about Grace - she was the product of his relationship with Edith Sewell (stage name Cis*) I've had a bit of help from one of Ihonarts Grandchildren, John Sewell, son of James, the youngest born 1925 but he knows very little and says there was a big Family Rift that split the Family. I gave up trying to make sense of their Tree because I just wasn't getting anywhere and all I really wanted to do was find out about my Grandfather. I tried writing to a couple of other Grandchildren but, for whatever reason, i haven't had replies :(
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Hi Diane
I know you haven't been a member here very long but the chatters really will go round in circles and up and down every branch trying to solve these types of family mysteries. They can and do weedle out all sorts of information ;D
Dawn
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so, as far as you know, did your grandfather travel much outside of the Romford/Ilford/Essex area during his lifetime apart from a spell working at Woolwich?
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Yes, I only used it for the First time yesterday and have had some great help already ;D
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Well, this is what I can't ascertain really. He used to travel to Slough to visit Winifred and her Family but all records I have show him in Romford/Ilford/Seven Kings. In later Years he was a Watch Repairer/Maker.
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I have found out today that definitely one of Ihonart/Sydney Sewells many Children, Edith (Grace) was born in September 1920 at 36 The Promenade, Seven Kings which is EXACTLY where my Father was born earlier the same Year (Feb) and this is also the address from his Father,Roberts Marriage Certificate in Sept 1919. Edith Grace's Parents are listed as Sidney Sewell (Travelling Showman) & Edith Sewell, formerly Jackson. I now know from further research that on the 1922-25 Electoral Registers that the occupants of 36 The Promenade were Sidney and CISSIE WALKER which I believe was a stage name. On another Birth Certificate for Ruby Florence born in 1914 they are living at 229 Henley Rd, Ilford and Parents listed as JOHN Sewell (a known Alias) & CECILIA Sewell, formerly Jackson. I don't know where the name 'Walker' came from, possible anther alias? I'm going to pay a visit to Redbridge Library to try and search some more records. It's all terribly complicated!
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Thanks for the update. The birth address link with Ihonart's family is certainly compelling :)
I'm still intrigued by Winifred Clements and think she may be important in piecing things together.
Have you found her birth? And/or death (perhaps giving a date of birth)?
Whom did she marry and when/where - and did she have any given names/initials other than Winifred?
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It's the biggest mystery but feel I've made real progress today :)
Yes, I'm still convinced that Winifred was a Child of Ihonarts and that my Grandfather Robert was maybe his first Child as he was born in 1897 (still no Birth record/Mother) I've been compiling a Time Line for all his Offspring this evening and Winifred would slot in nicely in 1905, after his last Son, Alfred with Florence Jenner, born 1902, and his first with Edith/Cicilia/Cissie around 1911/4. She was Winifred Ethel and was married in 1924, aged 18 to Reginald Fish. Her address at this time was Battersea Rise. I'm told that her Mother (Clements?) had worked in a 'Nuns College' but died of Cancer in 1923/4 and that Winifreds Father (who had been very cruel) tried to 'get her back', but that her new Husbands Family took her under their Wings and looked after her after she lost her Mum. I'm I've only bought 2 birth Certificates so far but they were a revelation!
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...Richard Gardner Down, aka Sidney/Sydney/John/Sewell/Ihonart, married Florence Jenner in May 1896 and my Grandfather Robert Walker (?) was born in Feb 1897 - possible that she was his Mother but that he was brought up by someone else? Who knows?!
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Winifred would slot in nicely in 1905, after his last Son, Alfred with Florence Jenner, born 1902, and his first with Edith/Cicilia/Cissie around 1911/4. She was Winifred Ethel and was married in 1924, aged 18 to Reginald Fish. Her address at this time was Battersea Rise. I'm told that her Mother (Clements?) had worked in a 'Nuns College' but died of Cancer in 1923/4 and that Winifreds Father (who had been very cruel) tried to 'get her back', but that her new Husbands Family took her under their Wings and looked after her after she lost her Mum. I'm I've only bought 2 birth Certificates so far but they were a revelation!
I see - so this looks likely to be Winifred's death:
Death, Mar qtr 1983
Winifred Ethel FISH, born 26 Oct 1905.
Ealing 12 0204
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Yes, sorry, I have a copy of her Death Certificate bit it hasn't helped :(
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She doesn't seem to have been registered at birth as Clements, as I'm sure you've discovered!
Who were the witnesses to Winifred's marriage?
Are there any family memories of where she was born?
Regarding her mother have you had a look at Ethel B Clements who died Mar qtr 1924 Wandsworth aged 38? The location is promising, as is the first name "Ethel" given Winifred's middle name.
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This may be Ethel's marriage:
Marriage, Dec qtr 1919
Harold CLEMENTS
Ethel B SMITH
Camberwell 1d 1767
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Yes, I've seen that Death and am tempted to buy the Certificate but the Marriage I'm not so sure about as its 1919 and Winifred was born in 1905? I've been told that Winifred had a Brother (name and age not remembered) that died at a 'young age' of Whooping Cough.
Winifred and Reg were married 16/04/24 and I'm pretty sure this was shortly after her Mum died. Witnesses were Lawrence Fish and Eveline Squires. Winifred's address given as 133 Battersea Rise, no Father given :-[
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Yes, I've seen that Death and am tempted to buy the Certificate but the Marriage I'm not so sure about as its 1919 and Winifred was born in 1905?
Yes, but Winifred was apparently not a Clements at birth, so there's no reason to think Mr Clements was married to her mother before her birth, is there?
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No, no reason at all. Maybe I'll get the death certificate first
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...so I should start searching for a Winifred SMITH Birth? GREAT! Haha
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..the only Family rumour I've heard (& no one seems to know much at all) is that Winifred may have spent some of her early childhood in a Children's Home and that sometimes Birth Certificated a destroyed? Your thoughts?!
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...so I should start searching for a Winifred SMITH Birth? GREAT! Haha
LOL!
Well I did notice (from electoral rolls) that after their marriage Winifred and Reginald Fish lived at the same address as a Smith family (46 Lynwood Rd, SW17 - 1927-1930). Coincidence - or not? (Probably it is - just the way it goes in multi-occupier houses).
What would be nice would be to identify who was at 133 Battersea Rise in the electoral rolls circa 1924.
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..the only Family rumour I've heard (& no one seems to know much at all) is that Winifred may have spent some of her early childhood in a Children's Home and that sometimes Birth Certificated a destroyed? Your thoughts?!
Certainly children in some institutions (such as the Foundling Hospital) had their names completely changed at the time of admission. But that scenario doesn't easily fit with Winifred having known her mother right up until mother's death.
As to destroying birth certificates I don't know - but that wouldn't destroy the underlying registration. If her birth was registered then it remains registered for all time.
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What would be nice would be to identify who was at 133 Battersea Rise in the electoral rolls circa 1924.
Answering my own point :)
1924 Electoral Roll
133 Battersea Rise, Wandsworth
Frederick CHAMBERS (voting qualification Residence)
John Muir Dalziel LINDSAY (voting qualification Business Premises/Occupation). Abode 54 Huron Rd, SW17.
Olive Mabel LINDSAY (voting qualification Husband's Occupation). Abode 54 Huron Rd, SW17.
Frank WELLS (voting qualification Residence)
Harold Augustus WELLS (voting qualification Residence)
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Hi
..... and Olive would seem to be CHURCH [ married JMDL 1913 Sep Wandsworth ]
Ray
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Presumably, this Electoral Register would be after her Marriage in April 1924? I'm not very good at this yet but would you think she just rented a room there?
One thing her Daughter (v elderly now) did mention was that she worked in a 'Nuns College?' - what do you make of that?!
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Presumably, this Electoral Register would be after her Marriage in April 1924? I'm not very good at this yet but would you think she just rented a room there?
The electoral roll for 1924 would have been compiled from information gathered in the autumn of 1923.
133 Battersea Rise appears (now) to be one of a parade of shops with flats above. It may well be that the upstairs rooms were let singly.
Even if Winifred was there at the time she would not (as an unmarried female minor) have had voting rights so would not have been listed in the Electoral Roll. I was hoping that some family member might appear for you!
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One thing her Daughter (v elderly now) did mention was that she worked in a 'Nuns College?' - what do you make of that?!
This thread may be of interest?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=332447.0
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Oh, wow! That sounds as if it could be the place, thanks for this info (& everything else too!)
Now to research into it further........ I thought a 'Nuns College' sounded a bit bizarre, but maybe not!
I wonder what sort of Shop it would have been? Maybe she worked there?
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I wonder what sort of Shop it would have been? Maybe she worked there?
It may have been a drapery business, as that was the occupation of John Muir Dalziel Lindsay when he married in 1913.
Added: yes, it seems so. John M. D. Lindsay of 133 Battersea Rise is listed in the category "Retail Drapers" in the Post Office Directory of 1934.
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I'm going to email the Archivist as mentioned in that Rootschat reply and see if theres any chance she can help me, although without a confirmed name, only that of Winifred, I doubt it :(
I can't seem to reply to the comment that has been posted. Why would this be please?
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I can't seem to reply to the comment that has been posted. Why would this be please?
I think because the thread has been archived as "completed".
However, by clicking on the username of the person who has posted the relevant information you can bring up their profile and send a PM (personal message).
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Thanks.again!
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You're welcome :) Let us know what turns up.
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Hi
Lawrence Albert Victor Fish may have been Reginald John's elder brother, their father being a "clothiers assistant"
Gertrude Kate Fish [mCooper] their mother
Easily found 1901 with father John Robert
You will have to do the lookup for 1911 (Brixton) because we aren't allowed to do it for you.
Was Reginald also in drapery?
Ray
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Yes, I know the Fish Tree but it doesn't really help me with anything :(
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I think Ray was perhaps picking up the drapery link between Reginald's side and Winifred's situation immediately before marriage. It is very often worth examining and re-examining the information you have from every angle. Sometimes you can find invaluable clues for your research not just by looking at who was related to whom, but also who worked with whom, or was in the same trade, or lived at the same address/was a neighbour, etc etc.
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Of course, sorry! I really need to learn to think outside the box don't I? The Paternal Branches of my Tree are SO complicated, and proving so difficult to research, my head is crammed full of information that I need to sort out!
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Referring back to the other topic, it looks as if it was locked by Dazee the original poster, who hasn't been online here for over a year and she didn't reply to the previous post by osmposm wsho also hasn't been here for just over a year.
If you haven't sent either a personal message yet, I can unlock the topic for you so you can make a reply on the topic if you want me to.
Dawn
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Ah, thanks Dawn - I have sent her a PM, but regardless, think I'll just use the info that was posted and try emailing the Archivist by following the link. Thanks though ;D
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Hi again
[Thanks avm] Yes that's exactly what I was doing.
To see if both halves of the couple were geographically close together at any point.
It is always worth a look. [ I found a link to my gt-grandparents that way, 3 familes same address ]
The Lindsay brothers were both travellers in the clothing industry.
Ray
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Yes, Reginald was a Tailors assistant, living at 16 Fairmont Rd at the time of his Marriage to Winifred in April 1924. As I mentioned, I'm sure Winifred's Mum had already died by then, but not long before.thanks
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In 1911, The Fish Family were living at 35 Chantrey Rd, Brixton. John Fish was a Clothiers Assistant at that time.
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Hi
Yup, we know, just couldn't tell you.
;D
Ray
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Hi, I've emailed the Archivist for The Sacred Heart College, Wandsworth but appreciate its a bit of a long shot as I now understand that there're were quite a few Colleges like this 100 years ago :( I didn't realise that you weren't allowed to search 1911 Census, but are earlier ones ok?
If only I knew the whereabouts of Richard Gardner Down c1905, I'd obviously have a better idea of Winifred's Birth location :/ I'm in touch with a fellow Ancestry Member who is also researching the Sewell Family and we will be looking at Birth Certificates of his many Children to try and get a better understanding.I was really pleased with the info the 2 I've already purchased gave me. It's a costly business :-[ all this to try and find out who my GGrandma was!
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Hi
Just to clarify the England & Wales 1911 census policy for you.
If you, the originator of a topic, start a post and have looked at the 1911 census, you can mention what you have found out. You are looking for your family and have used your subscription for your own research.
What is not allowed is the posting of look-up requests when you do not have a subscription as you are then asking people to break the terms and conditions of those subscription sites which generally do not allow look-up that are not related to your family.
Rootschatters can only mention search results that are available from the free indexes these sites have.
Unlike the previous censuses which are available in multiple formats, the 1911 census is still only available online through subscription sites who have clearly defined user policies.
Hope this helps
Dawn
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Ah, yes it does! Thank you Dawn, I understand now ;D
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Have received Death Certificate for Ethel Blanche Clements and am 95% sure that she is my Lady and so the Mother of Winifred Ethel. Her Death was 7/02/1924 at 46 Ouseley Rd Balham, which I've found out was part of St. James' Hospital and once a Workhouse so carried a stigma which is why 46 Ouseley Rd was used rather than Hospital. She died of Carcinoma Uteri (Ovarian Cancer) aged 38. Her address at the time was 89 Bennerley Rd, Battersea Rd and I'm sure ive seen this address on my searches but can't remember where! This is very close to where Winifred was living at the time of her Marriage (Battersea Rise) all too good to be coincidental! Will this help me find Birth Record for Winifred?! I hope so! Think I've found a possible sighting for Ethel on 1901 Census, but nothing on 1911 :/ onward onward...
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That does sound like a useful development - will have a look back at the thread to refresh memory.
NB Carcinoma uteri is uterine cancer rather than ovarian cancer.
Added: what was Ethel's marital status/occupation according to the death certificate?
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Yes, thanks, maybe £9.25 well spent!
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Sorry - I amended to add a question to my last post :)
Added: what was Ethel's marital status/occupation according to the death certificate?
And another question - which is the 1901 census entry you have provisionally identified for Ethel?
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She's listed as a Spinster and occupation is Canvasser for a Newspaper. On 1901 Census, address is 111 Ivydale Rd, Camberwell, Parents Harry P and Ellen S, BUT year of Birth is 1888, she was 13 so not sure if this is her. ???
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On 1901 Census, address is 111 Ivydale Rd, Camberwell, Parents Harry P and Ellen S, BUT year of Birth is 1888, she was 13 so not sure if this is her. ???
Harry and Ellen's daughter was baptised as Ethel Beatrice rather than Ethel Blanche.
In 1918 as Ethel Beatrice Clements (30) she married Charles Patrick Longman (26).
Don't think she's your girl.
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Oh boo! I wonder wether her given name was Clements? Maybe this is why I can't find her?
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..the Middle name of Blanche makes sense too as Winifred Ethel named one of her Twin Daughters Blanche ;D
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Her address at the time was 89 Bennerley Rd, Battersea Rd and I'm sure ive seen this address on my searches but can't remember where!
Registered voters at 89 Bennerley Road in 1921 & 1923 were:
Lydia GIRDLER
Rebecca Lilian LISNEY
Walter LISNEY
In 1924: same three plus a Miss Marion MEREDITH.
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No, those names don't ring a bell but I've seen that Road name in my searches, almost sure :/
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So Ethel not listed on Electoral Roll in 1923/24? That's strange?
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So Ethel not listed on Electoral Roll in 1923/24? That's strange?
It doesn't mean she wasn't living there. Even as a woman over 30, she would have had to be a householder or occupy property with an annual rental value of over £5 (or be a university graduate) in order to qualify for the vote. She wasn't married so couldn't qualify through a husband.
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A burial for Ethel:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JDMV-NPR
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Ah, thanks, and a confirmed Birth Year.
I'm suspecting that wherever Richard Gardener Down/aka Ihonart was in 1911, and possibly even 1901, Ethel was not far away! I've need told that she had another Child, a Son, not sure wether older or younger than Winifred, but died at an early age of Whooping Cough. I wonder if he would have been buried at the same Church?
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The burial is unlikely to be at a church - much more likely (given the Battersea connection) that it was at the municipal cemetery:
www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/200032/deaths_funerals_and_cremations/86/cemeteries_and_crematorium/3
The indexed date of birth will simply have been calculated from the age at death (38) which we already knew from the death registration. If she was correctly recorded as aged 38 when she died on 7 February 1924, that would put her date of birth between 8 February 1885 and 7 February 1886.
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As an experienced researcher, what are your thoughts on Edith Blanche Clements and why I can't find her Birth or on 1901/11 Census', or find her Daughters Birth record? Could it be that she wasnt using the name Clements? I don't know the way forward :(
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At the moment I am stumped by Ethel too, I'm afraid. Yes, it's entirely possible she's using a different name in 1901 and/or 1911. Without a birth registration and therefore a birthplace, it's very hard indeed to identify possible candidates.
It's also possible she wasn't English - perhaps Irish or Scottish or from further afield. Are there any family memories of her being from elsewhere?
I'm wondering whether the "nuns' college" clue might help you make progress. Did you have any luck contacting the archivist for the convent? Do you know whether Winifred was of the Catholic faith - I'm wondering whether she might even have been baptised at Sacred Heart?
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Yes, they are my last hope! I'm waiting for one of the Sisters who deals with the Training College Archives to get back to me. I think I'll email with My findings on Ethel, see if it helps. Thanks for your efforts. :D
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Great - do let us know when you hear from them :)
It may be worth asking specifically about baptisms at Sacred Heart while you are liaising with them if you've not done so already.
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Yes, I will!
Do you think a visit to Kew would help me? Perhaps not with Ethel but maybe trying to find out the whereabouts of Richard Gardener Down and ultimately, try to find Birth and Census record of my Grandfather, Robert Walker?
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Kew is wonderful but in terms of relevant English birth and census records doesn't have anything more than can be found online. I'm not sure at the moment how a visit would help.
When I mentioned baptisms I should also have mentioned first communions and confirmations - really anything they can find would no doubt be invaluable for you. Bear in mind that Winifred does not seem to have an English birth registration in the name Winifred Ethel Clements, so you may have to keep an open mind as to names. The birthdate of 26 Oct 1905 (from her death registration) may or may not help.
I did find a newspaper report dated 14 Dec 1906 saying that the "large school" at Trott St, Battersea attached to the Roman Catholic Church of the Sacred Heart of Jesus in Battersea had been destroyed by fire "yesterday". I don't know whether this would have affected the "Training College" part or whether they were separate.
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I've been thinking about my Grandfather Robert and pretty sure his Registered Birth name wasn't Walker ( given what I've found out) I'm thinking that in 1901 he may have been with Richard Gardner Down, his Wife Florence and Children,Florence Charlotte and Edward (wherever they were!) there don't seem to be any Birth records for any of the Children ::) strange
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Unfortunately, there were no records for Winifred Ethel Clements in the Cavendish Square Training College from 1914-1924. The Archivist, a very kind Sister Helen searched the records for me and I also had help from The Archivist of The Sacred Heart College as per the earlier post :P back to the drawing board again!
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That Marriage for Ethel B Smith to Harold Clements was not our Girl :( she was Ethel Beatrice, not Blanche. I'm stuck >:(
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Still no further forward with finding Birth record for my Grandfather, Robert (Valentine?) Walker or solving the mystery of his Father(?) Richard Gardner Down aka Sydney or John Sewell;Sydney Walker, or who his Mother was.
Completely stumped >:(
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Have finally had a result (with the help of a professional researcher)
It transpires that my Grandfather was NOT born Robert Valentine Walker in 1898, but Valentine Henry Down in 1897, eldest of Richard Gardner Downs (13+) Children. I now have his Birth Certificate and 1901 Census entry where they were already using an assumed name of 'BRITTON'. Unfortunately, no sighting of him, or Richard Gardner Down on 1911 Census, despite extensive research. Also no Birth or Census info for his half Sister, Winifred Ethel Clements so possibly not her Birth name.
Still, happy with what I've found out😀
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It is so nice when we get an update on old posts, thank you and happy New Year.
Jennifer