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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: jess5athome on Friday 15 March 13 15:34 GMT (UK)
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Hi, does anyone know of any good sites where I could find photographs of steamships, I have a ancestor who was a master mariner, in 1881 he is the second mate on a ship called the "SS CHINA" and in 1891 he is the Mate on another ship called "SS NAVRRA ROTHERHITHE". these are the 2 vessels I am looking for, I have done the obvious Google search etc but cannot come up with anything.
Regards always.
Frank.
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http://www.atlantictransportline.us/content/60China.htm
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I think that's a US vessel?
Another website I found suggests that the 2 vessels were based in Goole?
http://www.goole-action-group.org.uk/cms/main.php?k=122
3rd entry from the end.
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Hi jo new, many thanks for the link but it is the wrong ship, no worries tho` thankyou for your response.
Hi KGarrad, yes thats the ones, he ended up the captain of the "SS AFRICA" before it was taken over by the admiralty, it then struck a mine in the channel in september 1915, I wonder if he was still the captain or if it would have been a "military" captain.
Frank
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Hi, just to update the post, I have found a photograph of the "SS CHINA" ;)
Frank.
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Hi, does anyone know of any good sites where I could find photographs of steamships, I have a ancestor who was a master mariner, in 1881 he is the second mate on a ship called the "SS CHINA" and in 1891 he is the Mate on another ship called "SS NAVRRA ROTHERHITHE". these are the 2 vessels I am looking for, I have done the obvious Google search etc but cannot come up with anything.
Regards always.
Frank.
William Denby born Wisbeach 1855 was second mate of CHINA docked in Goole in the 1881 census. I don't know if this was your ancestor.
Regarding NAVRRA ROTHERHITHE. I cannot find a ship with this unusual name.
Do you have your mans Certificate of Sea Service or his details from Lloyds Captains register. If not, where did the information re Mate on NAVRRA ROTHERHITHE come from? It seems that it could be vessel named NAVARRA which was docked in Rotherhithe for the 1891 census. Do you think NAVRRA could be a typo?
AFRICA was owned by Bennett Steamship Co., Ltd., Goole when she was lost. It could be your man was Royal Navy Reserve or RNVR. His name would be a great help.
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Hi seaweed, many thanks for your input, the ship "Navrra Rotherhithe" came from something I found on the web, I am now wondering if it was Navrra of Rotherhithe?.
The man in question is my GG Grandfather,
William Denby, b 1885 Wisbech
d 1919 Goole.
I have a picture of his "Mates" ticket dated October 1880, and his "Masters" ticket dated July 1885.
Like yourself I cannot find anything anywhere regarding a vessel of this name.
Frank.
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Hi again seaweed, forgot to ask, how would I go about getting his record of service etc ?.
Frank.
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Apologies, William was born in 1855
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the ship " came from something I found on the web, I am now wondering if it was Navrra of Rotherhithe?.
Never take anything from the net as truth. People make mistakes, typos, etc. I have found over the years that it pays to consult as many references as possible to double or triple check, using original sources where ever possible.
I am 99/% sure that the name "Navrra Rotherhithe" is erroneous and a vessel with that name did not exist.
According to the 1891 census, William was in Goole on the night the census was taken. As he was a coastal sailor who could be at home on a regular basis, this may not be entirely true.
He has no records in Lloyds Captains register because he only held a Home Trade Certificate.
DENBY, William born. Wisbeach 1855 HTC 102298 passed Hull 1885
If his records are anywhere they will be in the British National Archive.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C408339
I understand there are records on Ancestry.com but I do not know if they cover HTC. Maybe worth a look.
If there are no records available from these two sources, then you would have to backtrack via the vessels crew agreements. But let's wait and see what you find before setting out on that course.
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Hi seaweed, many thanks for your very kind reply, yes I am sure you are correct about the "Navrra Rotherhithe" I found William on the 1891 census this morning and that set alarm bells ringing.
I will follow the leads you have so kindly given to me and see where that takes me, many thanks again for your time and advice and my best regards always.
Frank.
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Hi,
records for William Denby Masters Mates Certs are on Ancestry.co.uk.
If you send me your email address by private message I can share records with you(I think).
marysma
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That's very kind of you marysma but I think you may compromise Rootschat with copyright issues. No doubt one of the moderators will give us guidance.
If there are any names or official numbers of ships on the documents you have access to. Could you post those on this thread? This should not be a copyright problem methinks.
Thanks SW
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Hi, Thankyou very much for your kind offer marysma but I already have copys of both Williams Mates and Masters tickets and as seaweed says it could more than likely be a copyright issue.
Hi seaweed there are no numbers or vessel names on the tickets.
Regards to you both always,
Frank.
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Take a look at this thread, in particular the post by leighton.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,637412.msg4846161.html#msg4846161
When you call up his certificate on the screen, look at the adjacent pages. You should also find a list of the ships he sailed in since he first went to sea.
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Hi seaweed and Jess,
thanks for the advice,was'nt sure if I could share information.
Ancestry records for William has ships he sailed on plus address info.
Regards.
marysma
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I think the way it works is this:
The images are copyright, and you shouldn't post screenshots.
Clips are OK, if they are to be used for deciphering purposes.
But you can type out the information ;D
The information itself isn't copyright.
ADDED: Any transcripts are also copyright! ::)
That's why you have to type it out - it's then YOUR transcript! ;D
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Thanks for the advise KGarrad.
Hopefully marysma will type the information for us.It will be interesting to see if a vessel with the name NAVARRA official number 88675, is on the list.
Thanks SW
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Hi all, just to update, I have just checked Williams record between 1871 and 1885 and found a list of vessels on which he served and there was no mention of a vessel by the name of "Navarra" so it seems to be a mistake, he sailed on vessels from 1871 until getting his "Mates" ticket in 1880 and then sailed on vessels until getting his "Masters" ticket in 1885.
All time served at sea on his service record show vessels upto 1885 the year he gained his "Masters" ticket (13 in total) but do not show any service or vessels after this date.
Frank.
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Hi, just found a site on the web regarding vessels etc at Goole, it seems that William was master of SS Africa and SS Mopsa after gaining his Masters ticket, the sad thing being both vessels were struck by mines in the English channel,
getting lots of pictures anyway.
Regards, Frank.
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http://www.uboat.net/wwi/ships_hit/4241.html
http://www.uboat.net/wwi/ships_hit/76.html
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Hi seaweed, many thanks for the links you gave me about the U Boats they are great, is there any way I could find out if William was the Master of the vessels at the time of sinking? do you think it would be on the National Archives site you gave me?
William died in 1919 in Goole at the age of 64, would he still have been on vessels or do you think he would have retired?
I am sorry to ask questions, I hope you don't mind.
Frank.
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You need to look at the last crew agreements in the National Archives at Kew and search via the ships official number.
MOPSA official number 114033
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C2480559
AFRICA official number 114036
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C1732981
Be warned there were several vessels about in 1915 with the name AFRICA and at least 2 with the name MOPSA I am as sure as I can be that I have the correct O/N's
As I keep stressing.
Most of the stuff concerning ships and shipping which on the internet, needs to be double checked. The only 100% sure way of identifying a British or Empire ship, is by the ships unique official number. This number never changed no matter how many name changes took place as long as the vessel remained on the British register. If the vessel was sold foreign and she returned to the British register, even years later, she would have the same official number.
If he was master at the time of both sinkings, then no doubt there would be details of the sinkings in the series ADM137
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C1846
You can get quotes for these documents (Not cheap) but you would be best served going to Kew yourself.
Given that he was an experienced master and the war was only recently over. I imagine he would still be at sea
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Hi seaweed, many thanks again for what you have told me, its all very much appreciated.
I will most certainly do as you say, I will have a look at the cost of the documents as traveling down to London is not an option for me, hopefully it may be within my price range.
Many thanks again for all of your time and expertise in this matter and as always my very best regards.
Frank.
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The Hull Daily Mail 7/4/1919 reported his death and also commented
He went to sea as a boy of ten. Practically for Fifty years he sailed out of Goole. He was first in the service of Mr James Hudson a former Goole shipowner. About thirty years ago he joined the Bennett Steamship Co and becoming master, commanded all of their vessels. He retired a few years ago when he was commodore of the fleet.
There are photo's of all Bennetts ships here
http://www.gooleships.co.uk/shipowners/Private/bennett/abshiplist.htm
I would also try a mail to the website to see they know if he was master when AFRICA and MOPSA were lost.
shipshullATshipshull.karoo.co.uk
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Hi seaweed, many thanks for your continued input, I will indeed email the website you show to see what I can find out, you never know they may even have a photograph of him, Thankyou so much for the information in the "Hull Daily Mail", I have downloaded a copy of the page to show my mother, William was her maternal Great Grandfather.
Regards as always,
Frank.
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Hi all,
hope this is what you mean.
List of Testimonials and Statement of Service from First Going To Sea
1 Elizabeth Kilner--Official Number London 65579---Rank AS?--Commencement 29-06-71--Termination 24-08-71--Time on Ship 1 Month 26 Days.
2 London-Elizabeth Kilner--Official Number 65579--Rank AS--Commencement 31-08-71 -Termination 30-11-72--Time on Ship 3 Months.
3 Tiger--Official Number -Goole 50416--Rank AB--Commencement 06-01-72--Termination 14-04-72--Time on Ship 3 Months 9 Days.
4 Reward--Official Number Jersey 33596--Rank OS--Commencement 16-04-72--Termination 05-04-73. Time on Ship 10 Months.
5 Name of Ship Elizabeth Kiner-Official Number London 65579-Rank OS-Commencement 24-04-73-Termination 16-05-73-Time on Ship 22 Days.
6-Name of Ship-Young Hudson-Official Number London 65562-Rank AB-Commencement 23-06-73-Termination 09-12-73-Time on Ship 5 Months 17 Days.
7-Name of Ship-Ocean Spray-Official Number Goole 18256-Rank Mate-Commencement 04-01-74-Termination 15-06-74-Time on Ship 5 Months 12 Days.
8-Name of Ship- Ann and Jane-Official Number Goole 24476-Rank Mate-Commencement 13-09-74-Termination 09-06-75-Time on Ship 7 Months 26 Days.
9-Name of Ship-Ocean-Official Number Goole 4760-Commencement-15-06-75-Termination 22-12-75-Time on Ship 6 Months 3 Days.
10-Name of Ship-Eliza Blagden-Official Number Goole 15189-Commencement 14-01-76-Termination 30-06-76-Time on Ship 5 Months 17 Days.
11-Name of Ship-Caroline-Official Number -London 56893-Commencement 01-09-76-Termination 06-11-76-Time on Ship 2 Months 6 Days.
12-Name of Ship-Diamond-Official Number -Goole 369-Rank Master-Commencement 30-12-76-Termination 01-11-77-Time on Ship 10 Months 10 Days.
13-Name of Ship-Young Hudson-Official Number-London 65562-Rank Master-Commencement 03-11-77-Termination 08-11-78-Time on Ship 11 Months 8 Days.
14-Name of Ship-India-Official Number -Goole 67820-Rank (ARS X 2.M)? -Commencement 05-12-78-Termination 15-05-80.Time on Ship 1 Year 5 Months 8 Days.
15-Name of Ship-China-Official Number-Goole 67824-Rank (as above)Commencement-15-05-80-Termination 02-09-80.
Total Service at Sea 7 Years 8 Months 2 Days.
On same page.
Certificate of Examiners
Date and Place of Examination 18-10-1880--Hull--Navigation P--Seamanship P--Rank for which passed-Home Trade Mate. Dated 14-10-1880.
Hoping I've done this right :-\
marysma
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Hi,
found these for William.
Name of Ship--China--Offical Number -Goole 67824-Rank 2.M-Commencement -/10/80-Termination 02-07-83.Time on Ship 2 Years 9 Months.
Name of Ship-Whilwood/Whitwood-Official Number -Goole 68872-Rank Mate-Commencement 09-07-83-Termination 26-12-83-Time on Ship 5 Months 18 Days.
Name of Ship-Berlin-Official Number -Goole 67827-Rank Mate-Commencement 01-01 84-Termination 21-02-84-Time on Ship 1 Month 21 Days.
Name of Ship -Berlin-Official Number-Goole 67827-Rank AB-Commencement 15-04-84-Termination 07=07-84-Time on Ship 2 Months 23 Days.
Name of Ship-Berlin-Official Number -Goole 67827-Rank Mate-Commencement 08-07-84-Termination 05-01-85-Time on Ship 5 Months 28 Days.
Name of Ship-Berlin-Official Number-Goole 67827-Rank Mate-Commencement 06=01-85-Termination 06-04-85-Time on Ship 3
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Brilliant marysma!
Thank you for taking the time and trouble to type this out. I had a quick look and it ties up with the report in the Hull Daily Mail saying Denby sailed for Hudson and Co. on the sailing vessel YOUNG HUDSON
It also confirms he was second mate on CHINA in 1881
Once again thank you.
Frank, you now need to see if his Masters certificate at the National Archives gives the same kind of information from 1885.
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Hi seaweed,
glad to have helped,but my fingers are aching with all this typing ;D.
Off to make some tea and toast and watch the tv.
Goodnight.
marysma
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Quick one
William Denby Master of a Home Trade Passenger Ship -In Order of the Board of Trade--3rd July 1885.
mm
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Marysma, you are an absolute treasure!, thankyou so much for doing that, it must have taken you an eternity to do all of that, thankyou so very,very much, I will now try to sort out his Masters history as seaweed says.
seaweed another big thankyou to you also, your input, help and knowledge have been invaluable to me, I have also found a book entitled "Asleep In The Deep" which charts the history of the Bennett Steamship Company which William sailed for, this will be a treasure to me also.
Many many thanks to you both, I cannot thank you enough.
My very best regards as always.
Frank
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You are welcome Frank.Let me know if you need me to look for anything else regarding William.
Regards.
marysma
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Hi all,
Just to update, William was not the master aboard the SS Africa when it hit the mine in 1915, nor was he aboard the SS Mopsa when that vessel hit a mine in 1916, the master of both vessels on both sailings was Captain Greenwood who was senior captain in the Bennett Steamship Company at the time of both incidents.
The Hull Daily Mail of April 1919 states that William retired a few years prior to his death (so he could have retired about 1916/1917) and that at the time of his retirement he was Commodore of the fleet.
He may well not have been actively sailing when he was commodore of the fleet so once I have got my head around the National Archives site I will try to find his service record covering his time afloat once he had gained his Masters ticket.
Regards always,
Frank.