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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Brenda53 on Tuesday 12 March 13 08:30 GMT (UK)
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Against a brick wall with g-grandmother Mary, dealing with common names in distant, large city! Parents were John James (b.abt 1827 London) and Elizabeth Jane Edwards (b.abt 1831). (Elizabeth had a sister Susan.)
Mary and her Aunt Susan emigrated to Australia about 1886. Mary married James McClelland, Victoria, 1889. (Her three boys, orphaned at ages 8,7 and 5, all joined army during WW1 and fought at France.)
Appreciate any help confirming details.
Thanks.
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Hi
Do you have Mary & her parents on census at all
Was Susan an Edwards or a James :-\ sorry just noticed she is Elizabeth's sister ;D
Rosie
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Nothing obvious showing on any of the usual databases.
Where did the 'London' bit come from?
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Evening,
1861 census
The only Mary James b 1859 London I could find was residing in London with her dad John (b 1822 Devon) - He was a widow at the time and occupation is given as Licenced Victualler. The the other members of the family were
James b 1850 Devon
Frank b 1853 Lambeth
and Mary b 1859 Lambeth.
and and Elizabeth Brown (Cousin) b 1839.
Maybe this is why she went to Australia with her Aunt Susan. Not sure of Susan Edwards data in any census as John was widowed and therefore his wife (Elizabeth) place of birth not evident. Neither is her surname at the time.
There are other Mary James' with parents John and Elizabeth through census data but none born London exept the above one.
Will delve a bit more. Don't give up. Please excuse my useless typing. Although a touch typist I have severe rheumatoid arthritis in both hands and they are all bent which causes me to miss-hit keys.... :) had to hyphenate that one
Kind regards
Susan
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sorry posted twice - so deleted this.
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1861 census
The only Mary James b 1859 London I could find was residing in London with her dad John (b 1822 Devon) - He was a widow at the time and occupation is given as Licenced Victualler. The the other members of the family were
James b 1859 Devon
Frank b 1853 Lambeth
and Mary b 1859 Lambeth.
and and Elizabeth Brown (Cousin) b 1839.
The John on the 1871 census may have been married to Sarah see 1861 census below
they have a son James born Devon
Piece: 1921
Folio: 692
Page Number: 6
John James 33
Sarah 5(3)4
Mary Ann 3
James 7 mths
John PURSER 29 brother in law
No middle name Jane here there's these Elizabeth & Susan Edwards together on census
1851 census
Piece: 1870
Folio: 560
Page Number: 1
James Edwards 44 Devon Butcher
Susanna 38 Bovey Tracey Devon
ELIZABETH 13 ‘
SUSAN 9 ‘
Mary Jane 7 ‘
James 2 ‘
George 8mths ‘
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I don't know how correct this info. is but there is a public tree to view on anc*y
here's some of the details perhaps this may help
Mary James Age: 25 (1861)
Arrival Date: 31 Oct 1886
Arrival Port: Adelaide, Melbourne and Sydney, Australia
Departure Port: Plymouth
Ship: Cuzco
Nationality: English
Mary McClelland age 39
Death Place: Williamstown, Victoria
Father's Name: McClelland Jno Jas
Mother Elizth Jane Edwards
1898 Victoria
Registration number: 18747
Susan Edwards age 77 (1840)
Death Place: Melbourne, Victoria
1917 Victoria Registration number:13343
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Thanks, everyone. I shall follow up on those census records. The ones I thought were of this family just weren't "exact" enough although I hadn't discovered the one of John b.1822 Devon. Re the London birthplace for Mary, this information was on her death certificate, information for which was probably provided by Aunt Susan. (Mary met a sad and early death 1898.) The information from Australia and Ancestry is correct - that is, with the exception of the English census records! (My tree on Ancestry.)
regards
Brenda
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Not sure what else to add to this one.
But, if the 1861 John (born Devon) is correct and he was a widow then.
There are a lot of "Elizabeth James" deaths in London between 1859 (when Mary was born) and 1861 (when the census was taken).
It is a shame that you don't know John's occupation (it would narrow which one was correct).
Susan
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Thanks Susan, really do appreciate your help and thoughts. Yes, it's difficult with such common names and when even the family stories are absent - my grandfather, Mary's third-born son, was barely 5 when she died and he was subsequently raised by aunts, latterly maiden aunt Susan before her death and his enlistment for WW1. Regards, Brenda.
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Brenda I wonder if Mary's parents may have died?
1871 census
Piece: 2089
Folio: 60
Page Number: 45
Mary James age 11 (1860) born London
Lots of young girls go to page 44 of this 1871 census to see the start
Priory St Mary Church Devon
Head Sophia C L Adams 39 Winchester Glouc. occ Devoted to Works of Charity
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Poor little devil.
I think you may have something there.
I noticed that plenty of Elizabeth James' died between 1859 and 1861 in Lambeth London
and also that quite a John James' died in Lambeth, London (one in particular - born abt 1818 died 1868 Lambeth).
From that 1861 census when John was a widow - the family were living in Lambeth
Kind regards
Susan
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1861 census
The only Mary James b 1859 London I could find was residing in London with her dad John (b 1822 Devon) - He was a widow at the time and occupation is given as Licenced Victualler. The the other members of the family were
James b 1850 Devon
Frank b 1853 Lambeth
and Mary b 1859 Lambeth.
and and Elizabeth Brown (Cousin) b 1839.
I think you can rule this Mary out mother's name MARY ANN
Frank James bapt 16 Jan 1853 St Matthew Brixton
Mary James bapt 15 Sep 1858
Father John occ Licensed Victualler mother Mary Ann abode Brixton Hill
I wonder if this is the above Mary James son ???
Frank James born 23 Feb 1880 bapt 21 Feb 1881 St Giles Camberwell
Mother Mary James (Workhouse)
I'm not seeing any baptisms on line for Mary James born c1859 London
parents John & Elizabeth Jane :(
Do you know when John & Elizabeth married?
FreeBMD has these entries
This is the only one I could see in London area
Islington Mar 1860
John James
names on same page
Elizabeth Edwards
Elizabeth Cook
This is the only one I could see with middle name but the date is far too late & it's in Wales
two earlier dates 1855 & 56 again in Wales
Lladilofawr 1876
John James
names on same page
Elizabeth Jane Edwards
Mary Davies
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Morning, Susan and Ladyhawk,
Thank you again for your responses.
I was keen on the victualler John James from Lambeth also, mainly because Mary named her first 2 boys John Edward (after father and possibly mother's maiden name) and James Francis (names of brothers on that record?) but, due to seeing John's wife Mary Ann in previous census, then I also ruled it out.
There is another census record 1871 and beyond for John and Elizabeth of Lea, Glouchester - I couldn't find their Mary after that, which indicated she possibly left home to work, or married.
As you say, maybe her parents had deceased early. Mary was a troubled person, I believe. If she had been orphaned, emigrated for a new beginning and then lost her husband to an early grave after bearing him three children, then her life was quite sad. The inquest into her death determined she had thrown herself in front of a train, following witnesses sighting her previously wandering aimlessly through a train yard. She was supposed to be visiting a friend in a suburb much further away, having left the 3 young sons with Aunt Susan for the day. Tragic. My grandfather, the youngest, was the only one to marry and have issue - there were no James family stories to pass down.
I've always wondered about the "London" birthplace - sometimes details provided for Australian records are vague. So far away, near enough was good enough, perhaps.
Thanks again, I shall now investigate your info.
Cheers.
Brenda.
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There is another census record 1871 and beyond for John and Elizabeth of Lea, Glouchester - I couldn't find their Mary after that, which indicated she possibly left home to work, or married.
Brenda - I feel this Mary James can be ruled out as father in law was staying with the James family in 1871 his surname CAUDLE, marriage John JAMES name on same page Elizabeth CAUDLE 1853 Ross
Looking at birth entries on FreeBMD for London, Middlesex & Surrey these came up, trying to see if I can tie any up with parents named John & Elizabeth Jane
Mary James
births between 1859 – 1861 (FreeBMD)
Shoreditch Mar 1859
Lambeth Jun 1859 - established from bapt. Mary's parents are John & Mary Ann
Kensington Jun 1859
Camberwell Mar 1860 (middle name JANE)
Clerkenwell Sep 1861
I'm was looking into the birth entry below born in WALES not ENGLAND :-\ only because of the name John - haven't located them on the census to check parents names though
Mary James & John James
Jun 1860 vol 11b page 105 Brecknock
There’s an asterick by district for Mary James but looking at the original entry on FreeBMD it reads
11b 105 as does John’s
looking at a possible marriage which may tie in mmn Jenkins :(
1851 Brecknock John James name on same page Elizabeth JENKINS
Have you followed Mary's Aunt Susan Edwards on any UK censuses to see if that gives you a clue?
Do you know where she was born?
As previously posted this is the only marriage I can see for London area for a John James to Elizabeth Edwards as possible parents for Mary if she was born in London
Mar 1860 Islington
John JAMES
Names on same page
Elizabeth EDWARDS
Eugene Napolean Lefort
Elizabeth Cook
Looking at the census for Eugene Napolean Lefort his wife Elizabeth born 1839 Bedfordshire
checked 1851 census there's an Elizabeth COOK born 1839 Bedfordshire
Although not 100% certain I would think that John James has married Elizabeth Edwards
a shame the marriage cert. is not on line to view :(
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Thanks, Ladyhawk
Shall look into your latest suggestions......husband has been in hospital after an operation and I'm only now getting to read your reply.
I have searched census for Susan and Elizabeth in the same household - there were a couple but not in London (which isn't a "given"). Aunt Susan's death records do not note place of birth, etc. I guess there was no-one to provide these details at the time of her death in Melbourne, Aust..
Again, thank you for your efforts. I shall let you know my thoughts when able to view.
Regards
Brenda.