RootsChat.Com

Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: mergendy on Sunday 10 March 13 11:17 GMT (UK)

Title: A Mystery
Post by: mergendy on Sunday 10 March 13 11:17 GMT (UK)
Hello all, first-time caller and all that :)

I've recently got back into researching my family history after a long "break", which was partly necessitated by coming up against a brick wall on my father's side of the family. It concerns the identity of my 8th great-grandparent (which is to say I know the names of the other seven).

The problems here are many, at least to my beginner's mind:

My name is Jones, as is my father's, but he took his mother's name, as he seems to have been, in that charming Olde Worlde phrase, born on the wrong side of the blanket, just before the First World War.

I know my great-grandmother's name (Winifred Jones), my grandfather (Maxwell Jones)'s birthdate and birthplace (47 Walton Breck Road, Liverpool, 27/1/1913), but details such as father's name, mother's DOB and other such basic info seems to have been left off my grandfather's birth certificate. My grandfather never talked much about his parents, but the oral history, such as it is, is that his mother, Winifred, was a "servant in a big house in Wiltshire" (possibly Worton) and after falling pregnant (by the master of the house?) went up to Liverpool to have the baby...she then returned to Wiltshire and married Lot Ellis, and together they gave my grandad a half-brother, Edward, who I believe went on to be a big noise in the Navy or something along those lines. Thus I imagine the Ellis line is fairly easy traceable, whereas my own male lineage (my father's father's father's etc. etc. father), at least for me, remains a tricky puzzle to unravel...

Right, that's about it! Would be grateful for any tips on where to go next...Winifred's employment records? The address in Liverpool? etc. The maddening thing is that I can't even pin Winifred down with any certainty in any census, as I have no birthdate...

Advice please!
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: alpinecottage on Sunday 10 March 13 11:29 GMT (UK)
Hello.

When Winifred married Lot Ellis, her age should have been written on the wedding cert, and also her father's name and occupation.  do you have the cert?

It probably won't be easy tracing the father of Maxwell, but that's an unusual name and may provide a clue.
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: garstonite on Sunday 10 March 13 11:30 GMT (UK)
Hiya
Mawell Jones b 1913 Liverpool - mothers maiden name Jones....
on freebmd he is registered
Maxwell F Jones .....do you know what the F stands for ?
allan
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: mergendy on Sunday 10 March 13 11:33 GMT (UK)
Hello.

When Winifred married Lot Ellis, her age should have been written on the wedding cert, and also her father's name and occupation.  do you have the cert?

It probably won't be easy tracing the father of Maxwell, but that's an unusual name and may provide a clue.

Hi there, and thanks for your reply. I'm afraid Winifred's birth certificate would be on the "other side" of the family (the legitimate side!), in other words in would probably be with Edward and his branch of the family, with whom I'm not sure we've had recent, or indeed any, contact...I suppose it's something I can try to dig up in future if nothing else comes of my efforts...

The rub here is that, like many males I imagine, I'm interested in tracing back the male line as far as I can, but my brick wall appears far earlier than most people's...is there a more exact word for the concept of one's father's father's father's etc. ad infinitum?
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: mergendy on Sunday 10 March 13 11:34 GMT (UK)
Hiya
Mawell Jones b 1913 Liverpool - mothers maiden name Jones....
on freebmd he is registered
Maxwell F Jones .....do you know what the F stands for ?
allan

Ah OK...I've not really got into BMD yet, as I can't quite get the angle on its usages...this will come I'm sure...!

The F stands for Francis, and this TY stands for Thank You! :)
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: garstonite on Sunday 10 March 13 11:38 GMT (UK)
What year did Winifred Jones marry Lot Ellis ....I can`t find a marriage ?
allan
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: alpinecottage on Sunday 10 March 13 11:41 GMT (UK)
No, I meant the wedding cert for Winifred, not her birth cert.  You should find that on Freebmd - you will have to order a copy from GRO (easiest) or the local Wiltshire Register Office (Swindon, maybe).  It will cost you about £9 - £10, depending how you order it.

It's well worth getting this certs, as it should give you her age, occupation, maiden name, address, father's name and occupation and same for the groom.  You will also see who were the witnesses to the wedding, which can sometimes help (if they were family members etc)

Freebmd is www.freebmd.org.uk ----Added: Garstonite is probably looking here right now!
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: mergendy on Sunday 10 March 13 11:43 GMT (UK)
What year did Winifred Jones marry Lot Ellis ....I can`t find a marriage ?
allan

Hi again Allan...good question! This is one of the things I lack I'm afraid...I can check with my Dad when I speak to him later today, but I rather think that the "other side" of the family records aren't known to us...my Dad has his Dad's birth certificate, but the wedding certificate for Lot and Winifred is probably (as I said above, but erroneously called it a birth certificate!) with the Ellises and / or their descendants...I'm not even 100% sure they did get married, but let's say at least 95% sure! I know this doesn't help, but welcome to my mystery!  :-\
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: confused73 on Sunday 10 March 13 11:43 GMT (UK)
Hate to put a damper on marriage certs. My grand father married 3x and each cert had a different Christian name and a different occupation so do beware our relies didnot always tell the truth.
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: mergendy on Sunday 10 March 13 11:46 GMT (UK)
No, I meant the wedding cert for Winifred, not her birth cert.  You should find that on Freebmd - you will have to order a copy from GRO (easiest) or the local Wiltshire Register Office (Swindon, maybe).  It will cost you about £9 - £10, depending how you order it.

It's well worth getting this certs, as it should give you her age, occupation, maiden name, address, father's name and occupation and same for the groom.  You will also see who were the witnesses to the wedding, which can sometimes help (if they were family members etc)

Freebmd is www.freebmd.org.uk ----Added: Garstonite is probably looking here right now!

Thanks again: I realised my mistake too late! :)

The problem here is that I don't know when, or even if although I'm 95% sure, they got married...

One intriguing thing is her connection with Liverpool though...to my knowledge the world of 1913 was very different from that which we live in 100 years on...what kind of connection could she have had with 47 Walton Breck Road which would've enabled her to go up there to give birth? To my knowledge it's only ever been a private house...could further research on this angle yield anything (occupants in 1911 census for example)? Or is it even possible?
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: mergendy on Sunday 10 March 13 11:47 GMT (UK)
Hate to put a damper on marriage certs. My grand father married 3x and each cert had a different Christian name and a different occupation so do beware our relies didnot always tell the truth.

Hmmm, there is certainly that...I've come up against one or two other discrepancies in other branches of the tree, but at least I've got somewhat further back with those than with my direct male lineage...still waiting for the proper term here!
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: garstonite on Sunday 10 March 13 11:53 GMT (UK)
I cannot find a marriage of Lot Ellis to Winifred Jones  AND there is no birth for a Lot Ellis , so I presume it was a nickname
loads of Lottie Ellis ......girls name - but no Lot ...so we need to establish the real name of LOT ??
unless I have missed something ...can someone else look for a birth or a marriage for Lot Ellis please
cheers
allan
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: alpinecottage on Sunday 10 March 13 11:54 GMT (UK)
There was a marriage between Winifred Jones and Harry L Ellis in Ormskirk (near Liverpool) in Mar Quarter of 1916.  The L could stand for Lot  :-\

You can order copy certs for anyone's birth, marriage or death (as long as it was more than 50 years ago) through the General Register Office (GRO) for £9.25.
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: mergendy on Sunday 10 March 13 11:55 GMT (UK)
I cannot find a marriage of Lot Ellis to Winifred Jones  AND there is no birth for a Lot Ellis , so I presume it was a nickname
loads of Lottie Ellis ......girls name - but no Lot ...so we need to establish the real name of LOT ??
unless I have missed something ...can someone else look for a birth or a marriage for Lot Ellis please
cheers
allan

Thanks again Allan, I think that was also one of the mysteries here, since now you mention it I do remember something about Lot being a nickname...

The only other details I've got are that he was a "council employee" and Winifred was a "domestic servant" but, slightly maddeningly, these details come from my previous, not-exhaustively-detailed research, so I don't know which census / certificate they come from...
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: mergendy on Sunday 10 March 13 11:59 GMT (UK)
There was a marriage between Winifred Jones and Harry L Ellis in Ormskirk (near Liverpool) in Mar Quarter of 1916.  The L could stand for Lot  :-\

You can order copy certs for anyone's birth, marriage or death (as long as it was more than 50 years ago) through the General Register Office (GRO) for £9.25.

Thanks again for your help...I'll pin down some more details (or try to) from my Dad later today...Harry does actually ring a bell in some way, but maybe I'm clutching at straws...

I suppose if I draw a blank here I could go to Edward's birth cert. since that should include details of Lot and Winifred, should it not?
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: garstonite on Sunday 10 March 13 12:06 GMT (UK)
My nan was Martha Ellis b 1899 in Garston,Liverpool ...so I am keeping an eye on this thread in case an Ellis I recognise appears ...
allan
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: garstonite on Sunday 10 March 13 12:12 GMT (UK)
I think I have found him
Harry Lot Ellis  in Devizes,Wiltshire in a census
could that be him ?
if so ...that Harry L Ellis marriage looks good that Alpine Cottage found in 1916 ...WW1 was on at the time and Aughton /Ormskirk did have base camps there...maybe thats why Harrie Lot Ellis was in Ormskirk ...so...can we find his birth in Wiltshire ( hopefully in Devizes )
allan
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: garstonite on Sunday 10 March 13 12:14 GMT (UK)
Someone on Genes Reunited has
Harry Lot Ellis born 1886 Worton,Wiltshire ...
I will see if I can find his baptism
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: garstonite on Sunday 10 March 13 12:18 GMT (UK)
Lott Ellis aged 15 - son in Lavington,Worton,Devizes,Wiltshire 1901 cesus
I have only been putting one T in my search ...let me check
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: mergendy on Sunday 10 March 13 12:23 GMT (UK)
Lott Ellis aged 15 - son in Lavington,Worton,Devizes,Wiltshire
I have only been putting one T in my search ...let me check

Brilliant...Worton is a keyword here...I'm pretty sure the Ellises are Wiltshire Ellises and Winifred's connection with Liverpool is simply going there to give birth to Maxwell Francis Jones...
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 10 March 13 12:28 GMT (UK)
Harry Lot Ellis appears in a 1939 Kelly's directory in Worton Wilts as a shopkeeper and post office.
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 10 March 13 12:34 GMT (UK)
There was a marriage between Winifred Jones and Harry L Ellis in Ormskirk (near Liverpool) in Mar Quarter of 1916.  The L could stand for Lot  :-\

You can order copy certs for anyone's birth, marriage or death (as long as it was more than 50 years ago) through the General Register Office (GRO) for £9.25.

According to Lancashire BMD website the marriage took place at Ormskirk Register Office  ( or Registrar Attended)
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: mergendy on Sunday 10 March 13 12:34 GMT (UK)
Harry Lot Ellis appears in a 1939 Kelly's directory in Worton Wilts as a shopkeeper and post office.

Many thanks Carol...maybe Harry is his birth name...the question now is whether he is indeed a Wiltshire boy born and bred, as I (have) always thought, or whether the marriage between Winifred and Harry in Q1 1916 mentioned by another kind soul below is indeed the right pair / marriage, and Harry is a Scouser...

I can see now how one can spend months, years or a lifetime with this kind of research!
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 10 March 13 12:35 GMT (UK)
http://www.bathbmd.org.uk/cgi/deathind.cgi

Have his death in 1960 Harry Lot Ellis age 74 in Bath North.
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: garstonite on Sunday 10 March 13 12:59 GMT (UK)
Harry Lot Ellis appears in a 1939 Kelly's directory in Worton Wilts as a shopkeeper and post office.

Many thanks Carol...maybe Harry is his birth name...the question now is whether he is indeed a Wiltshire boy born and bred, as I (have) always thought, or whether the marriage between Winifred and Harry in Q1 1916 mentioned by another kind soul below is indeed the right pair / marriage, and Harry is a Scouser...

I can see now how one can spend months, years or a lifetime with this kind of research!
IF WE BELIEVE the 1901 census  Harry Lott Ellis b 1886 Worton,Devizes ,Wiltshire ...and the census was taken 31st March 1901 in Lavington,Worton ,Wilts ...so I would be 99% certain he was born in Worton ...or even Lavington ,Worton to be precise ...can someone post that census detail in full with Harry - parents - and siblings please ??
allan
added...not allowed to publish 1911 census ...but does anyone know what this stands for
Worton Potterne S O ...is this some type of military camp ???
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: mergendy on Sunday 10 March 13 15:23 GMT (UK)
I believe Potterne is a neighbouring village to Worton...S.O. though...no idea...
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 10 March 13 15:36 GMT (UK)
I wondered if SO might just be someone's initials if a crossing out had been done on an official form?
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: wilcoxon on Sunday 10 March 13 16:42 GMT (UK)
If Walton Breck Road is in North Everton, then two years before 1913 a Davies family were there.
Daniel Davies 50 b Liverpool
Mary wife 50 b St Helens
Daniel son 19 single b Liverpool
Joseph son 14 b "

Not many clues there unfortunately.  ???
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: alpinecottage on Sunday 10 March 13 18:24 GMT (UK)
Harry Lot Ellis appears in a 1939 Kelly's directory in Worton Wilts as a shopkeeper and post office.

Many thanks Carol...maybe Harry is his birth name...the question now is whether he is indeed a Wiltshire boy born and bred, as I (have) always thought, or whether the marriage between Winifred and Harry in Q1 1916 mentioned by another kind soul below is indeed the right pair / marriage, and Harry is a Scouser...


There was nothing to stop a "Wiltshire lad " marrying in Ormskirk!  As you know Winifred had a connection with Liverpool, having given birth there, and the Ellis Jones marriage in 1916 is the only likely one to be found and that there was a person called Harry Lot Ellis of the correct age alive at the time, I think the circumstantial evidence is quite strong that this marriage is the correct couple. Possibly Winifred went away to have the baby in 1913 and didn't reappear in Wiltshire until she was respectably married 3 or more years later.

In any case, Maxwell doesn't seem to have been Harry Lot Ellis's son since he is not named on Maxwell's birth cert, so the only chance you have to follow your patrilineal line further is to find out more about Winifred, which you can only do with certainty by ordering her wedding cert.  As it looks like the wedding was in a Registry Office, buying the cert is the only way to check her age and father's name and occupation.
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: alpinecottage on Sunday 10 March 13 21:19 GMT (UK)

added...not allowed to publish 1911 census ...but does anyone know what this stands for
Worton Potterne S O ...is this some type of military camp ???

Think it means they live at Worton but the post goes via Potterne Sorting Office.  There are lots of Wootons, Wottons, Wortons etc, so probably to avoid confusion.
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: jan57 on Monday 11 March 13 19:03 GMT (UK)
Harry Lot Ellis appears in a 1939 Kelly's directory in Worton Wilts as a shopkeeper and post office.

Many thanks Carol...maybe Harry is his birth name...the question now is whether he is indeed a Wiltshire boy born and bred, as I (have) always thought, or whether the marriage between Winifred and Harry in Q1 1916 mentioned by another kind soul below is indeed the right pair / marriage, and Harry is a Scouser...

I can see now how one can spend months, years or a lifetime with this kind of research!
IF WE BELIEVE the 1901 census  Harry Lott Ellis b 1886 Worton,Devizes ,Wiltshire ...and the census was taken 31st March 1901 in Lavington,Worton ,Wilts ...so I would be 99% certain he was born in Worton ...or even Lavington ,Worton to be precise ...can someone post that census detail in full with Harry - parents - and siblings please ??
allan
added...not allowed to publish 1911 census ...but does anyone know what this stands for
Worton Potterne S O ...is this some type of military camp ???

 1901  census

William Ellis  54 born Marston Wiltshire
Sarah Elliss 56 born Ecklestoke Wiltshire
Albert  aged  26 Marston  Wiltshire
Lucy   21  Worton
Frederick  18 Worton
Lott  15  Worton
William Ellis aged 1    grandson  born Worton   All the men  folk are Ag Labs ( except   little William   of  course )

address  is  given as 'In the Villiage'  ie Worton
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: jan57 on Monday 11 March 13 19:15 GMT (UK)
  Harrys birth
 Dec Qtr 1885
  Harry Lot Ellis  Devizes  5a 109
Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: paul* on Sunday 21 April 19 23:08 BST (UK)
If anyone is still following this thread, I can add the following details:-
 Harry Lott Ellis born 18 Oct 1885 - Baptised 07 Feb 1886, Christ Church, Worton
 Winifred born 11 Dec 1888
 William Edward Ellis born 06 Sep 1916


Title: Re: A Mystery
Post by: carol8353 on Monday 22 April 19 07:20 BST (UK)
Hi Paul,

The original poster Mergendy hasn't been online since 10 April 15, if they still have the same email address,they will be notified that we have both posted here.