RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: MaggieTag on Friday 08 March 13 19:02 GMT (UK)
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Rootschatters,
This is message that was sent out to civil servants earlier this week.
Mags
General Register Office (GRO)
NI Direct has been working alongside another area of DFP – GRONI to develop a service whereby the public can search, select and purchase Genealogy records online. Previously this service was only available through a face to face visit to the office in Belfast – the ability to extend the service to users at a time and location that suits them will allow the service to become available to a worldwide customer group in an improved and convenient way. This is expected to be available from November 2013
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Good news......hopefully charges applied will be fair.
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wow cant wait, but as scotmum says hope charges are fair!
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I realise this thread has been up for some time but I thought I would post an update. I e-mailed GRONI today and got this rather swift update on the upcoming database launch online.
"The new Online system will go live in early 2014 and allow searching of historical records ( births over 100 years, marriages over 75 years and deaths over 50 years ) Online. Watch for updates for the go live date on the website www.nidirect.gov.uk. At present the fee structure has not been set but customers will register to create an account and credits will be deducted for the searches that are carried out. If certificates are required there will be the facility to order them also."
Let's hope "early 2014" really does mean earlier rather than later. Nevertheless, at lease it is definitely happening.
Cheers,
Matt.
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That's good news Matt, thanks for keeping us updated.
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As far as I am aware...this database should be going live in March.
I'm waiting with baited breath...may have to set up a special bank account to afford it ;)
Matt.
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Update and likely costs:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xzd/
According to the draft legislation, the basic index search will be free, the enhanced index search will cost 1 credit (£0.40) and viewing an actual record will cost 5 credits (£2.00).
if it goes ahead at these prices, it will unfortunately be a bit more expensive than scotlandspeople but no doubt will still prove popular with many.
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Thanks scot.
At least we're in the picture a little more. I think for those of us with Northern Irish roots this must be the most eagerly awaited database in a while, or even at all.
My first thoughts when I saw the prices were "that's not too bad" and then immediately followed by "but not quite as cheap as SP".
Nevertheless, I for one will still pay to get those images. I've waited long enough :D
Cheers,
Matt.
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Morning All
I was looking for an update on this initiative with the GRO. The speculation was that it would be like Scotlandspeople and be available in Jan.2014.I keep checking but have no new infor.
Twitter
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There's already a topic on this subject with more details on the Ireland-General board-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=638874.0
Topics merged
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Hi Twitter,
Sounds good indeed. Maybe an email to them will confirm details as I'm sure plenty will be looking forward to that ? ;D
I have used https://www.emeraldancestors.com/ in the past & I'm sure they wanted to charge me about the same price for a transcription as what I got an actual certificate for from GRONI if my mind serves me correctly ?
Annie
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Thanks folks for the update. I and I'm sure many, many others with Irish roots eagerly await the launch.
Twitter
Topics merged.
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Thought I'd just post to say I've been on to the nidirect website early this morning and have seen a message, stating that, from 9.00pm tomorrow there will be "several hours" of disruption due to essential maintenance.
A coincidence if nothing else comes of that, because Monday is rumoured to be the launch date...
This is like waiting for Santa ;D
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They may well go for a soft launch, i.e. they will put the site up with no publicity to make sure it’s OK. If you announce publicly that it’s going on-line at a specific time and date then what usually happens is that everyone tries to use it at once and it promptly crashes. If it runs OK for a few days they can then announce it with a greater likelihood that it’ll cope with the traffic.
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Thanks for the head's up on this. Hopefully it is for real and will have a go Monday to see if it's there. So many have waited so long for this as getting stuff from GRONI was very expensive, at least I thought so, but this hopefully will not be.
Thanks
Twitter
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Just to note the following message that has suddenly appeared:
Online public access to historic records will be available here soon
http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/leisure-home-and-community/history-heritage-and-museums/archive-for-family-and-local-history.htm
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Claire Santry has an update (11th March) in her blog Irish Genealogy News
http://irish-genealogy-news.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/exclusive-countdown-to-gronis-new.html (http://irish-genealogy-news.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/exclusive-countdown-to-gronis-new.html)
giving further information.
H
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Ah well, they do say patience is a virtue :).
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Thanks to Claire Santry for highlighting that its on the web already -
http://irish-genealogy-news.blogspot.co.uk/
My first impression is of slight disappointment. It's ok if you already know when and where something happened, but only allows a 5 year search period. I'm looking for the deaths of my g-grandparents John and Jane Boyd in the late 1800's. Don't know if they died in the Larne or Antrim district so it will involve a lot of searching at 40p per non-match.
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Thanks Folks for letting me know this is up and running. I have registered but will begin my searches a little later and see how it goes. The 5 year span is a bit troublesome as I don't know exact information pre 1900 for my kin but will muddle through.
Twitter
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I weep, but not with joy.
What could have been so wonderful, whilst better than the previous nothing, is, to me, a huge disappointment, as it is a mere tiny shadow of the excellent scotlandspeople website service, but costs more, seems far less flexible in how searches are done and extremely limited in the '5 year' window. It also only seems to allow viewing of previous searches/purchases for 72 hours (unless I have misunderstood - possible as I am in a hurry to go out), and I haven't yet found an option to download the full copy entry. *it seems GRONI prohibit printing, dowloading or taking screenshots*
As for 'user interface', first impressions are that it lacks a welcoming appearance. This was the chance for Northern Ireland to 'shine' on the genealogy stage, to showcase their facility and encourage both locals and the wider diaspora to delve into their genealogy. Instead, it comes across as clumsy in places and somewhat lacking in appeal. It could be somewhat confusing too, for those not familiar with the main www.nidirect.co.uk website and who initially land there ( eg this page http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ypy/ , especially as not many genealogy researchers will be interested in the local government news bulletins that appear across the top of the pages, nor the links on some pages to 'most popular' items on the whole website such as 'controlling your dog in public'). Albeit, and you would be advised to bookmark it, you can get to the sub-site directly using https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/.
I didn't expect it to be 'all bells and whistles', but I did hope for some of the well-proven style and functionality of scotlandspeople mixed with some of the warm, friendly and welcoming 'feel' that many tourists to Northern Ireland have so often experienced over the years and that makes them want to return again and again.
Will play around with the site more again this evening to see what I've missed and if things are any better than first impression.
That said, I did have success with my first search, but only because I knew exactly who/where/when. A certificate I have long waited sight of.
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Hi Again
First attempts have been at best futile! I have no idea of the registration and sub registration districts. As for exact birth date I only have a year so no luck. The thing is, if I knew all this information I wouldn't need The Records. After waiting so long this is truly frustrating.
Twitter
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Hi Twitter,
Not tried the site yet as I didn't realise it was up & running 'til now. Are you saying we need exact dates?
I was in one of the registration offices in Ireland a few yrs ago & it was done by the same (2 yrs either side) & cost me a small fortune & came away empty handed :-(
I don't think any could match our scottish records but they also have a new format which makes it a bit harder which in turn costs more.
I can't see why religion has to be separated in OPR's as some of the church names don't stipulate where in Scotland it is ???
Gripe over & may have a try for a death record which I do have a date for thankfully :-)
Annie
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Hi Ammack
Yes I found the whole business very frustrating and will be tres expensive as they only give you a 5 year window and that muddled me as I typed in an 1864 to 1869 and got stopped - they include the 1864 as 1 year. I was trying to order a death cert. but it appeared to want all the information I didn't have and never knew. It sure isn't Scotlandspeople. I really hoped they would copy that model. Unfortunately it's the only game in town and we are stuck with it.
Twitter
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Mmmmmm....teething problems too, methinks.
Have just gone back and logged on. Gone to 'stored searches' and clicked on 'view' for the purchase I made earlier and instead of opening the record again, it is taking me to an 'error page'.
No obvious 'contact' button on the sub-site to report this (scotlandspeople works well as reporting issues can be done from a 'logged on' state and so they know your account details) and 'help' button takes you back to the parent site, which again is not ideal, as parent site is multi-purpose and from a genealogy point of view, 'cluttered' with too many things that have nothing to do with research and purchasing records. Will attempt to report the 'error page' issue using the email address I finally found on the main site's 'GRONI search fees explained' page....(not the most obvious place many would think to look).
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Welllllllllllllllllll
Just tried to get my cert. with d.o.d 1896 in from & to boxes (1896 in both boxes)
It then asked for "Enter a Year from that is no earlier than 5 years before this value"
I then put from 1892 to 1897
& request was met with same "Enter a Year from that is no earlier than 5 years before this value" ??? ::) ;D
Has anyone else had the same ???
Annie
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As the saying goes "They're a long time dead"
With this site that sure is fact 'cause we won't be able to find out the length of time they've been dead.
Site a DEAD loss ::)
Annie
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yes ammack it wont let you put the same year in both boxes. On your second attempt it failed because you put in a six year range, happened to me too. I'm hoping the 5 year thing is just for starters so the servers aren't overloaded and they'll get rid of it when things settle down. Can't think of any other reason to do it.
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I then put from 1892 to 1897
Frankie, I thought that was 5? 92 from 97 = 5
I'm not sure what they mean now ??? ::) ;D
Annie
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Frankie,
Sorry, with you, just noticed count 1st date
What a palaver right enough - I'm away back for another go ::)
Annie ;D
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This is an absolute joke.
The info. I have for the death cert. I am seeking is:
Died in Aughafad, Donacavay, Tyrone, N Ireland
None of the above are options for Districts or Sub - districts.
I think they need a "Mapping" TOOL on that site ???
I need to put a request up to find out where/what district/sub dist now ;D
Annie
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An event in Aughafad, Donacleavy, should be registered in Omagh. You can use the seanruad site to find the civil registration town for any townland in Ireland. It’s normally the same as the PLU.
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An event in Aughafad, Donacleavy, should be registered in Omagh. You can use the seanruad site to find the civil registration town for any townland in Ireland. It’s normally the same as the PLU.
Thanks Elwyn buuuuuuut,
I don't know anything about Ireland so not sure what PLU means, sorry :-[
Annie
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PLU stands for Poor Law Union (ie the geographic area covered by each workhouse). The administrative areas for each civil registration area were normally the same.
Use this site to look each townland up. Where there is more than one of the same (which happens frequently) then use the parish to narrow the search. You’ll see the PLU listed next to the parish. So that’s the registration district.
http://www.thecore.com/seanruad/
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Elwyn,
Thanks for that.
I got the certificate but what a bummer, cannot save it, download it :(
I suppose on the + side it saved me £'s on the original as her dead hubby's name isn't on it.
I have to say SP is so much easier to use but heyho...better than no....site ;D
Annie
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Yes Annie the inability to save an image you just paid £2 for is another pain. There is a work around...
Take a screenshot by pressing CTRL + Prnt Scrn
Then open Paint(a Windows Accessory) (or another image editor of your choice) and Paste the image into it.
Crop the image and save it.
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Albeit their terms and conditions also apparently prohibit the taking of screen shots. ::)
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Hi again
I thought I would be able to print off an image of a death cert I just pair 2 pounds for only to find out after I closed the screen I had no image in my printer and there was nowhere I could find previously to save it. I went back in and got the basic search with all the candidates but when I went to the Full, which I had PAID for it was going to charge me another credit!!!.
This just a cash cow! No longer frustrated just angry.
Twitter
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twitter
See my earlier post. For the first 72 hours from purchase, you can view the certificates again by logging in, using the 'features' tab at top of page, then choosing 'stored searches' then scroll down to 'enhanced and full views' and click on 'view' (no additional charge) - on saying this, some of my purchases are fine and letting me view again, some are taking me to an 'error' page.
Re printing, however, GRONI terms prohibit printing, downloading or taking screenshots ::).
(methinks GRONI may get a lot of complaints soon)
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Nothing much to say really, other than I too am very underwhelmed.
What a shame :(
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Thanks Frankie-d have copied your advise and will us it when I have another try. But as for now I am 2 pounds out of pocket
Thanks for the help
Twitter
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So frustrated with the GRONI website. It won't take my card details, I have tried two different cards. It keeps telling me it has timed out, and 'error'... Could this be due to the website being too busy I wonder?
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I'm amazed at the negativity on this thread. Yes, it does look a bit bland, and yes, it isn't ScotlandsPeople. But it is an online portal to Northern Irish records, something many of us have been screaming for for years. Records cost £2, and in most searches I have used so far, I have not had to use the enhanced search at another 40p, as the basic index is detailed enough. Considering the cheapest way to get pre-1922 records before was 4 Euros from the GRO in Roscommon, and after that £15 from the GRO in Belfast, I think we should be thanking our lucky stars we have a facility like this at all. I still wait with bated breath for the English and Welsh GRO to get itself sorted, not to mention the GRO in the Republic of Ireland.
It would indeed be great to be able to download the records, and I don't understand the logic in restricting this. I can't imagine after spending £2 people are then going to request a paper copy of the cert. But I spent £60 last night on this site, and have resolved a fair few brick wall issues thanks to it. Whilst a glass can be half empty, it can also be half full. Personally, I think this is the biggest online development for Northern Irish genealogy since PRONI started to upload digitised records, and thank God for it!
I've reviewed the site at http://britishgenes.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/groni-launches-online-civil-records.html
Chris
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I'm with Chrispaton on this too. We've waited a long time for this and quite honestly if you do research nowadays, you have to be prepared to pay for it sometimes. The charges are reasonable, considering what it would cost to order a full certificate in the past. We all moaned when the GRO prices went up from £7ish to £9.25 but many are still willing to pay that high cost.
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I'm not thanking God for anything. Think I'll thank the airline that will take me to Belfast instead
;D
Matt.
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Oh dear,
I have been so spoiled with Scotlandspeople. This website is so different, so confusing and just not user-friendly. Took me a while to understand the "5 year" thingo, and I just don't understand the logic of that. The site asks me for all the information I am hoping to find!! I just keep coming up with "no records" - and as for the Townland maps... Well, either it is not working at all for me or ??? it is a farce!!! As stated - disappointing and so "unfriendly" - contrary to the NI people themselves!! "Patience" - it will have to improve.
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Will someone post the website for this as I cant find it
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Will someone post the website for this as I cant find it
Simplest way to reach it is by using:
https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/
and for more complicated route:
http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/leisure-home-and-community/history-heritage-and-museums/archive-for-family-and-local-history.htm then from there figure your way to http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/leisure-home-and-community/history-heritage-and-museums/research-family-history-at-the-general-register-office-ni-groni/gro-info and use the green coloured 'Go to GRONI online' tab part way down page.
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No doubt we will all agree to differ on our first thoughts/impressions/ongoing discoveries of the newly launched service - its style, ease/non ease of use, cost and otherwise....and that is an entirely healthy state of being and should be encouraged.
It is only by expressing these differences in thoughts/impressions etc, that a more full and clear picture can be built of what is good and what is not so good, which will perhaps be eventually a source of suggestions for the powers that be behind the new service to tweak and adjust if/as they see fit.
For my part, in genealogy matters, my glass is almost full, yet those negative thoughts that dominate my 'first impressions' assessment earlier are still there and as valid as others negative and/or positive thoughts, whether their glass/es is/are empty, quarter-full, half-full or otherwise.
After all, if mistakes weren't made, learning wouldn't occur. If healthy debate wasn't aired, we would all be in the dark as to positive points/usage tips and negative points/usage tips experienced by others. We can all learn together (and at times, praise or moan together too ;D).
Certainly, I look forward to reading further posts on this thread in the days and weeks ahead, meantime I still think that GRONI et al need to look to some well established and rounded off wheels for ideas, as theirs seems to have been re-invented a bit square (albeit with some quality aspects therein).
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I agree, and having played on the site some more have made a list of tips and thoughts about it at http://britishgenes.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/more-on-groni-northern-irish-bmd.html - there are certainly issues to be raised and discussed.
For those who wish to fly to Belfast instead, when you make your way to the GRONI centre you will find that the costs are now exactly the same as the online facility, the only difference being that there are no closure periods in Belfast for more recent records, only those available online. It's using the same system.
Certainly a visit to PRONI will allow you to access some marriage records on Anglican parish registers from 1845, and for some births and burials, but the info on the latter two will not be as detailed, and only go as far in most cases to 1900.
You could go to Dublin to look at the pre-1922 records for the north there - if you have the patience to wait for photocopies to be carried out for you! I flew over once from Glasgow and the photocopy guy was on a course - with no replacement put in his place. A hell of a journey for just one index book look up. You can order them up as photocopies at 4 Euros each. You can't make the order online, you have to fax or post the request. I made one application last week at 4 Euros, but postage was a further £1.20 (I don't have a fax). They do email the record to you now though apparently, though I'm still awaiting my order. There is also a digital site from the HSE in Dublin, which charges 20 Euros per record for a certificate.
So it should be pointed out that there is no obligation to use the new GRONI site at all. There are indeed other options, including ordering certs post-1921 from the GRONI at £15 per record, the highest rate in the United Kingdom. This new system is just now the cheapest and easiest to access from home if you don't live in NI. Does it have issues, yes it does, and no doubt it will evolve, just as ScotlandsPeople has done over 15 years (from its ScotsOrigins days). But is it going to revolutionise online research for Northern Ireland? Absolutely.
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To Frankie-d
If you were here you'd get a big hug! Had another go this morning, again paying for something I paid for yesterday but learned another valuable lesson namely if you go anywhere else for instruction or hints while your results are in view you can't go back, it disappears and you pay again. I am slowly learning to plan well before you start.
Twitter
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twitter, not sure if you saw the suggestion I posted too.....may help others as well
twitter
See my earlier post. For the first 72 hours from purchase, you can view the certificates again by logging in, using the 'features' tab at top of page, then choosing 'stored searches' then scroll down to 'enhanced and full views' and click on 'view' (no additional charge) - on saying this, some of my purchases are fine and letting me view again, some are taking me to an 'error' page.
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I had the error page notification a couple of times last night when I went to look at previous purchases early in the evening, but it seems to have been working fine since. The record magnifying facility has also been a bit glitchy. Possible gremlins upon launch, or possibly a browser issue? (I'm using Chrome just now)
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My 'error page' notification still coming up for one today (raised issue yesterday by email, when I eventually found one to use....not obvious from sub site).
Magnifying facility glitchy on Firefox too.
Also, cannot tie down a record for death of a chap whose death date is recorded on a will calendar entry at PRONI. Even allowing for PRONI date entry to be a mis-transcript, the chap is not showing under any spelling variation, for other years either (even if using only first three letters of surname).
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On the saved searches, all continue to come up "ERROR" .
Sent a note to GRONI as my 72 hours will be up soon. We'll see if they respond in time
Twitter
P.S. Thanks again Frankie-d
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DITTO - Error on page :'(
Not exactly clear where to make your complaint & I'm at 24 hrs since viewing.
Can someone please give instructions on where/how to make complaint re death download as it is asking for more £ or message is error ???
Annie.
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I had the same problem and sent an e-mail to: gro.nisra@dfpni.gov.uk
Here is the reply dated 1st April.
We have been advised that there is a technical issue with the stored search facility.
Our IT providers are working to remedy this as quickly as possible.
I will inform you when this issue has been resolved.
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GRONI forbids the download of images from the site, and has disabled ability to right click and save. However, it might be worth knowing that it is possible to save the images - though whether you do so, against the express mighty wishes of GRONI, is completely up to you!
Using Firefox, you can load the image on the screen of interest, and then in Tools, select Page Info and then Media - the image appears then (with other images from the page, logos etc), and you can simply select and save - in file format box you need to save as All images, not HTML, and you need to add a picture file extension, eg. png to the file name, instead of .htm. No idea if the same can be done on other browsers, got this as a tip from a reader on my British GENES blog.
Also, to do searches for a single year - simply type in the year of interest in the first year box only.
Chris
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Thanks for update, glensman. My email to them on Monday on same issue and to same address has had no response. A second of my saved searches is now also giving an error page, so I was about to email again. Out of interest, I don't suppose they have said if they will refund credits and/or extend the 72hrs viewing limit once fixed?
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Scotsmum - no mention of refunds or extensions. My previous post gives the full text of the reply. However I am sure that they will make an appropriate arrangement.
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Thanks. Yes, hopefully they will.
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Hi,
Received a reply this morning about my stored searches issue.
"Dear ****
We have been advised by our IT service providers that there is a problem with the stored search facility.
They expect to restore it by this Friday, 4 April.
You will certainly be entitled to view your images for a 72 hour period once this has been rectified.
Regards
GRO
Belfast"
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Hi Folks
I have had no respond to my email and all saved searches still indicate "ERROR".
Will again email them as my 72 hours will be up shortly.
I'll try your email address glensman and see if I can get a response.
Twitter
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Although I still haven't, for some reason, had a reply to my email of Monday about the stored searches issue, I have had a very prompt and helpful reply already to one sent before lunchtime today, about a probable mis-transcription I spotted:
Thank you for bringing that to our attention. I have checked the original register and can confirm that the maiden name was mis-transcribed when the entries were computerised. The correct name should be ****** as you have stated. I have passed this to our Project Team who will correct this in due course,
;D
Now if I could only find the missing 1923 death entry for another chap. Pity the search insists on a surname (or first three letters of one), as if it has been mis-transcribed, there is little chance of hitting on it, even though I have an exact date of death (if PRONI will calendar is to be trusted, that is).
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[/quote]
;D
Now if I could only find the missing 1923 death entry for another chap. Pity the search insists on a surname (or first three letters of one), as if it has been mis-transcribed, there is little chance of hitting on it, even though I have an exact date of death (if PRONI will calendar is to be trusted, that is).
[/quote]
If you know the date and exact place of death, you could e-mail GRONI and say you are surprised there’s no match. Perhaps there’s been a transcription error. Could they search the original register for you? They might do that free.
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Hi Folks (again)
Just to let you know I did get a response today re Saved Searches and Error messages. They gave me a choice to receive a refund or have my credits re-established. Again they indicated it would be Friday before the thing got fixed. I did suggest that they put up a notice when the repairs were complete as fixes often take longer than expected and it would save a lot of frustration on both sides of the Atlantic
Twitter
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If you know the date and exact place of death, you could e-mail GRONI and say you are surprised there’s no match. Perhaps there’s been a transcription error. Could they search the original register for you? They might do that free.
I have done, Elwyn, and they aren't finding it either. Just in case, I've also checked and he is not on indexes for Scotland, England, Wales or Southern Ireland, albeit I have no reason anyhow to suspect that he died anywhere other than Northern Ireland. His death fits with changes in the Valuation Revision books, and his surname was consistent throughout his life and on will (give or take a few minor spelling variations), although I have now asked if GRONI can check with only forename and date of death, in case for some odd reason he was registered under an entirely different surname. Still puzzling over this one. Have asked GRONI if they would kindly check again. He had a son that moved to Scotland, but as said, no sign that the father died there. And likewise, a daughter who moved to America, but again, no sign he had visited her there (indeed, she and her hubby and children visited him in 1922). His remaining family lived local to where I believe he died.
Anyhow, aside from above, just thought I would update the thread (in case others have experienced likewise) that whilst I am receiving emails fine from GRONI on this matter and the other mis-transcript matter I contacted them about, oddly, I have still not received any reply to my email of Monday about the 'error' page issue......just as well others here have at least explained that it is a known issue and being worked on.
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Whilst typing previous post, have had following email response from GRONI:
It is not that the death registration is missing but that it was not registered.
::)
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The PRONI probate file and on-line abstracts should both record the precise place of death. (The information appears on the estate duty form B1 which ought to be in the Probate file). So you should be able to clarify from that exactly where he died. If there’s no death certificate in the relevant registration sub district, then Sherlock Holmes would suggest that what you are left with is has to be the explanation ie that the death wasn’t registered.
I know from personal experience that today you cannot apply for probate without a death certificate but perhaps this was not always so. You could ring the Probate Office in Belfast and ask them what the procedure would have been in 1923.
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Scotsmum - if you have the date and the area, a newspaper death notice might be a possibility.
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Morning Scotmum
If you want I would be glad to check out the Belfast Newsletter for you as I have a membership on Ancestry and the BNL has been very useful over time. You could send a PM . Your call
Twitter
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Thanks for input, yes, the PRONI abstract entry has him at what was his usual address, no other address mentioned. Will cross check my notes to see if I have previously looked for a death notice for him on the newspaper microfilms I searched before - if not, will check when I next get opportunity. Was just interested to see his cause of death and who of his family, if any, was present. Again, no obvious thoughts as to why they wouldn't have registered it. No known estrangement with them and assumed it would have been needed for his burial. Maybe if anyone looking in on this thread is heading to PRONI soon, they could PM me for details and kindly check the record associated with the online abstract.Meantime, as Elwyn has suggested, I will contact probate office and ask if they needed sight of a certificate back in 1923.
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just one word - terrible!!!!
I have been waiting a long time for this .
I have dates , I have where they have died - I wanted to get all my deaths ( know where they happened and when)
I give up - it is horrible, very cold and annoying ( I get - The Email field is not a valid e-mail address -umm yes it is!!!!) I give up - I'll come back when they sort the glitches out .
What a big disappointment.
It could be so much better.
Kind Regards
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Oh dear, Cell. One thing to check, when you were putting in your email address then a password, the cursor didn't by chance 'jump' back to the email box and you inadvertently added part of your password to the email without realising, thus invalidating the email?
Another thought for those following the thread, on the 'Error Page' issue some of us have had, it would be good if GRONI would indicate on their website what their expected/aimed for response timetable is to various types of contact queries. There is nothing worse than keeping a customer in the dark as to when they should expect a reply. Given that my email to them about the 'Error' matter was sent on Monday and has had no reply as yet, whilst others emailed later in week and have had replies, there seems little sense of order as to how they are prioritising dealing with emails.
Whilst I appreciate it is their first week and with such issues as the 'Error page' they will no doubt be inundated, they do need to be seen to be dealing with queries in a proper order/priority to help instill confidence. As others have said, a message on their website to the effect that there has been a known issue would help alleviate many concerns and perhaps reduce some of the emails they are no doubt receiving, especially given the limit of 72hrs they have imposed on users and the fact that we have already paid up-front for the service. It is not ideal that some people are learning only 'by word of mouth' what is happening/going to happen.
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This is a huge step forward for anyone researching in Northern Ireland. Having said that, I can see why people are getting annoyed with it.
If you don't know the exact address the search page isn't exactly obvious the first time you look for it; they aren't exactly shouting about it from the rooftops of Belfast!
I can also understand the complaint about not being able to save the image that you have just paid for. A tip for anyone who wants to save an image- take a photo of it with your phone or camera.
I bought £10 worth of credits and used it to buy death cert images. I don't think I would have bought these certs the normal way.
If you consider the position we were in before then this is a great improvement albeit not exactly user friendly!
Cell, keep at it because it will be worth it at the end of the day.
Tony
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I think it's great to find dates of births and deaths in the index, also the mother's maiden name for all births - all under the free search. Wish the GRO had the same.....
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My version of GRONI's school report card would probably read "could do better".
Yes, a material step forward from the offline certificate service, but the online experience is ultimately redolent of 'unfulfilled potential'.
I don't wish to be churlish, so I give it a conditional 'thumbs-up', with the hope that GRONI respond to feedback.
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My version of GRONI's school report card would probably read "could do better".
...but the online experience is ultimately redolent of 'unfulfilled potential'.
;D
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Well, Friday is now here and for whatever reason, I've still had no response from GRONI to my polite x 2 emails of Monday and Wednesday enquiring about the 'Stored Searches - Error Page' issues.
The '72hrs viewing time limit' has now been and gone on my 'Website' searches and 'Full View' searches that were returning the 'Error Page' messages, and therefore they are no longer appearing on my stored searches page. So, am left wondering, should the 'Error Page' issues actually be fixed today, as indicated in responses some folks received from GRONI, will the 'Website' searches and 'Full View' searches that were affected by the problem then re-appear on my Stored Searches page for a fresh 72hrs?
Would be nice to not have to wonder and not have to keep logging in to see if there has been any development.
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Morning Scotmum
My email from GRONI was from an Alistair Butler and the return address was
You could try an email to him directly, maybe it would work.
Hope this helps
Twitter
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Morning Scotmum
My email from GRONI was from an Alistair Butler and the return address was
www.nidirect.gov.uk
You could try an email to him directly, maybe it would work.
Hope this helps
Twitter
My understanding is that Alistair Butler is in charge of the whole project, so at least you are in touch with the top man.
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Thanks twitter (ps might be best to edit your post to remove the email addy, as far as I know, rootschat don't like such posted on the threads, even if it is one that is readily available in public domain, as it can be picked up by spam bots).
Elwyn, just had reply back from Probate office:
have consulted with my colleagues in the Probate Team regarding your query.
It is not essential now for a death certificate to be lodged whenever an application is lodged by a solicitor.
The applicant swears before the solicitor that the information in the oath is correct.
I am unable to advise if that was the process in 1923.
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Interesting. I applied for probate in England a couple of months ago. The Probate Office certainly did want a copy of the death cert there. But it seems that NI is slightly different. If a death certificate isn’t mandatory today, then I doubt it was in 1923 either. So that sort of fits with the evidence you have which suggests the death was never registered. Surprising, but evidently not impossible.
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Well, after response from Probate office.....I contacted GRONI again a little while ago, said that whilst I fully appreciated now that it could be possible that relatives simply overlooked registering a death, I still thought it very unlikely.
As such, I thanked them for having already attempted to find a registration under, for whatever reason, a different spelling variation and/or entirely different name (and I too had tried online by adding a different 1st letter to the 2nd and 3rd letters of the surname and searching that way, but to no avail), but asked if that meant they could not offer any other hope of it being found by perhaps manually using the known date of death and checking again, all entries for that date, to see if any could have been 'my' chap. Anyhow.....have just opened my emails again and found the following reply:
I have eventually found the death registration which was incorrectly transcribed when the registers were computerised.
The death is */1923/***/****/**/**, the surname was transcribed as “Se***” due to the original handwriting, I have passed this to the technical team who in due course will amend the Index.
Result! ;D
So, it was there, but with 1st and 2nd letters of surname incorrectly transcribed (think this adds credence to the need for them to allow for more variations of surname search than just 'equals', 'begins with (first three letters)' and 'variants', as even 'variants' did not pick up the name - perhaps allowing searches with no surname at all, as in this case, the forename and exact death date and area would have given me result/s that I could have then viewed and checked for possible matches).
ps
I know mis-transcriptions are always a possibility (I've done some transcribing in the past), but having only purchased 25 credits, ie enough for 5 certificates, that was the second amongst my searches that was mistranscribed. Hope the ratio doesn't continue in a similar frame.
pps
The chap handling these mis-transcription issues has said he will forward an urgent note about the lack of response thus far to my 2 x 'Error Page' emails.
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Am pleased for your success Scotmum, it pays to keep plugging away at the powers-that-be! ;)
I was struggling with their version of 'variants' too - many of my Burtons came up as Barton and Coote was Coate. (though perhaps this was due to the handwritten returns coming in from the churches each quarter) Would be nice to have the option of using * or % for missing letter/s, wouldn't it?
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Would be nice to have the option of using * or % for missing letter/s, wouldn't it?
Indeed! :) As I have always found such options elsewhere to be incredibly helpful.
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It is odd because I have searched the GRONI database using the public terminals in their offices in Belfast, and you can use wildcards and curtailed names etc there. Strange those features aren't on the on-line version.
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Have just received this from Groni regarding "the error" message which occurs for some on the stored search facility.
"We have been advised by our IT provider that they have identified the issue causing the stored search facility to malfunction.
A fix is planned to be implemented this afternoon between 3pm and 5pm (please note that the site will be unavailable during this time)."
Sio
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I've just been checking dates of birth for the 6 siblings of my husband's grandfather, using the free search not viewing the actual entries. I already had birth and baptism dates from church records on microfilm at the PRONI. I'm amazed that 4 of the 6 are different dates - i.e. church records say born 16 Jan, GRONI index states 27 Feb, 4 May/20 May, 1 Feb/13 Feb and 8 Oct/20 Oct. In all cases the baptism took place 2 or 3 months after the birth, so that means that the parents forgot the correct date by then!
Are anyone else's relatives that forgetful?
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It was often a bit of a trek into the nearest Registrar to register a birth, so people waited till they were going into town for some other reason and then killed two birds with one stone. However there was a penalty for late registration so to avoid that, what most parents did was just "adjust" the date of birth they gave the Registrar to one that incurred no penalty. That was very common in rural areas, and looks to be what happened in your case.
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Either they were indeed forgetful, the church entered the wrong date, the church records were incorrectly transcribed by you (and I am sure you/whoever viewed the microfilm for you, were probably extremely careful, so this is not the case) or the dates have been entered incorrectly in the GRONI indexes. Given my earlier experience, the latter is not beyond consideration.
Elwyn's alternative is a good possibility too, though. ;D
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Getting the correct date of birth is something that sometimes seems to agitate people researching today. It’s probably worth realizing that in the 1800s most people were supremely indifferent to their date of birth, and so errors were commonplace. In general, people in Ireland in the 1800s didn’t celebrate birthdays and often had little accurate idea of their ages. Alexander Irvine was born in 1863 in Antrim town and became a Minister living in the US. This extract from his book “The Chimney Corner revisited” perhaps explains why people often had to guess their ages:
“My mother kept a mental record of the twelve births. None of us ever knew, or cared to know, when we were born. When I heard of anybody in the more fortunate class celebrating a birthday I considered it a foolish imitation of the Queen’s birthday, which rankled in our little minds with 25th December or 12th July. In manhood there were times when I had to prove I was born somewhere, somewhen, and then it was that I discovered that I also had a birthday. The clerk of the parish informed me.”
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Thanks for the lovely quote, Elwyn. It does go some way to help me understand the whys and wherefores. I've never come across so many discrepancies in one family though, even with my own ancestors living in tiny hamlets on the North Yorkshire moors or in the depths of Cornwall, though I believe some areas had registrars who travelled around their local areas, rather than being situated in an office.
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“My mother kept a mental record of the twelve births. None of us ever knew, or cared to know, when we were born. When I heard of anybody in the more fortunate class celebrating a birthday I considered it a foolish imitation of the Queen’s birthday, which rankled in our little minds with 25th December or 12th July. In manhood there were times when I had to prove I was born somewhere, somewhen, and then it was that I discovered that I also had a birthday. The clerk of the parish informed me.”
Great quote:) It reminded be of a bit of analysis I did once on a portion of my tree that is Northern Irish Protestant. I had about 1500 exact birth dates mostly 1860s - 1890s. Far and away the most popular birth date was July 12th (Orangemen's Day) followed by May 24th (Queen Victoria's birthday) and then December 25th. I assume some people used an anchor date that was close to the actual birthday but they could actually remember. I don't have enough data to do something similar on the Catholic parts of my tree but I wouldn't be surprised if certain Saint's days were very popular.
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I know some have commented elsewhere about the new 'digital registration numbers' that seem to have been allocated to the records.
Can some kind soul assure me that my mind is not playing tricks on me and that in the days before the online GRONI, the indexes at GRONI and the local Registrar offices did include volume and page numbers? I am certain I always received notes of same in past when I commissioned research.
Why do I ask? Well, having found a few mis-transcripts last week on the new online service, I had a couple of searches today for which no results were returned, despite me using the 'begins with' option and just first three initials and then also the 'variants' option with full name. Anyhow, I emailed GRONi to say I couldn't find two entries that should be there and asking could they be perhaps be mis-transcribed? How did I know they should be there, well, unlike those of last week, because I had the Volume and Page Numbers for them. So, although the online search facility doesn't allow for inputting known volume and page numbers, I thought it would be helpful if I also included this info when I wrote to GRONI. Their reply:
Volume and page numbers were created by other organisations and bear no relationship to our references and do not assist with any search
This was in addition to them saying they did not undertake research (which is not what I asked for anyhow) and could not do a search unless I applied for a certificate or a search (I don't need a certificate and by virtue of purchasing credits to use online for searches, I assumed that I had 'applied for a search' ).
Yes, I agree, other organisations in recent years have made use of the Volume and Pages Numbers, but surely they were not created by those organisations, but rather were created when the original record was created and, in the past, were used as identifiers and/or additional identifiers at local Registrars and/or on GRONI indexes too? Or has my head gone into a spin with the various other 'teething' issues of last week and I am imagining this?
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I know some have commented elsewhere about the new 'digital registration numbers' that seem to have been allocated to the records.
Can some kind soul assure me that my mind is not playing tricks on me and that in the days before the online GRONI, the indexes at GRONI and the local Registrar offices did include volume and page numbers? I am certain I always received notes of same in past when I commissioned research.
GRO Roscommon rely on the page and volume numbers. However GRONI has never used them (and have a completely different system of indexing the records). So unfortunately the volume and page numbers don’t work with them.
I think that GRONI has the originals books (for the 6 counties of Northern Ireland) and therefore if you drew out say volume 6 and looked up page 123, it would work, but in general they don’t use the original books. They scanned all the images onto their in-house system years ago, and I think the originals are stored away and only consulted in cases where the on-line image is not very legible. Their on-line system doesn’t record the volume and page numbers so that’s why that information is not of any use to them.
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Yes, I appreciate they use different indexing, but I wanted to re-assure myself that they do hold originals that are stored and show a Volume and Page number, so if something is obviously 'missing', then those can be checked, and therefore under such circumstances, it is of use.
Anyhow, they shouldn't really have said that Volume and Page Numbers were 'created by other organisations' and that said Volume and Page numbers 'do not assist with any search', when they were created by virtue of the original records, which GRONI hold and which therefore could assist in a manual search.
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I am not an expert on the GRONI filing system and don’t want to get bogged down in trying to explain or defend their position. All I do know is GRONI has never relied on the volume & page number system. It means nothing to their staff and quoting those details when dealing with their office will get you nowhere.
Their system uses a prefix and the year and then a series of numbers and letters. So, for example, a marriage in 1880 might be indexed as M/1880/I1/267/2/210. That’s the only referencing system they are familiar with.
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Scotmum, I am in the same boat as you - again! I made a note of volume/page numbers (I think from either Ancestry or FamilySearch) a while ago and thought I might be able to 'flesh out' the info by finding the dates on Groni. Some have obviously been mistranscribed and cannot be found.
If only there was the equivalent of FreeBMD
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sorry hadn't finished!
/ where you can search district and quarter with just a first name ;)
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Apparently if using GRONI online:
You have registered to use our Online Search facility, that is not an application for a search. ::) Should you require further assistance if your search is unfruitful you can apply for a search by telephone ... or by downloading an application form from our website (something I have yet to find - anyone found it and have a link?) and applying by post.
so, if a record you believe should be there (perhaps because you already have a Volume and Page number or other proof), does not turn up on the online search, and according to GRONI, when asked, has not been mis-transcribed, they will, it would seem, not assist further by checking for it manually in the appropriate Volume and Page (if you have this information) of the appropriate original register, which they hold. However, if you apply for a search by telephone or by post, and pay separately for same, they seem to imply they would perhaps check manually (albeit it is not clear if that is indeed what they are saying).
Unrelated to the foregoing - Useful Tip
Came across this on one of the many 'info' pages on the nidirect 'parent site':
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ytc/
Illegible names
There are several reasons why names may not have been recorded for example if the name is illegible and has been impossible to capture for the index. In these cases ‘not captured’ has been inserted to enable searching.
For example, if you are searching for a George McDonald that you know was born in 1868 but cannot find the record, it may be worth replacing the forename with ‘not captured’. It is also common in the case of older records that a birth was registered before the forename of the child was agreed. In these cases ‘not captured’, combined with the surname, may help you find the record.
It might help someone, hence why I thought I would post the details. That said, I have already come across entries that have actually said 'Illegible' in the surname space on the 'enhanced results'.
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Are the "previous searches" not up and running yet? I thought and I may be remembering incorrectly, but when your logged in you got "searches" under the Features heading. So it appears today that unless I pay another credit, which I don't want to spend, I can't get to "previous searches" which may be in the next screen. If this is the case, it needs to be changed especially when you only have a 72 hour window.
Twitter
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They seem to have fixed the issue on Friday afternoon, but it also seems you need to reach agreement with them individually as to how you are 'compensated' for the 'Error Page' searches that you could not view again and have now disappeared (having passed the 72hrs) - for example, re-instatement of credits to enable those records to be searched and viewed again.
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It appears then you can't get to Previous Searches unless you pay another credit to get to that screen. If that is correct another email to GRONI is about to happen. The other thing I cant seem to find is an account of how many credits are still available to use in your account. All these features should have been field tested prior to launch.
Twitter
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When logged on, you should see, at top left hand side of page, 'my credit balance' then beside it an oval shape with a figure that shows same, eg 15. You can also check what time/date and for what purpose you have used your credits by clicking on the arrow beside your name at top of screen, and then viewing 'credit history', albeit that is a bit of a pain as it also records all the '0' credit basic searches too.
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Found yet another mis-transcription.
Attempted to report it using their 'Report Amendment' form, but getting following server error message:
corporate.nics.gov.uk/nigov-error
Have sent email to notify them instead and advise they have a server error problem.
Have also said it would be easier to find the mis-transcripts if we could have 'wildcard' search options on surnames, such as * or %, especially for ones we know exact date of event.
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Well done Scotmum - I'm not holding my breath though!
Just tried a search for one of mine - death of Phyllis. I tried Phylis and Variants and it didn't come up but Phyllis did! You would have thought Phylis would be a variant of Phyllis.... >:(
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I have written to GRONI too suggesting that they need to start responding publicly with more information than is currently available, and perhaps explain some of the mysterious limitations. If you can search for 160 years at a time on Scotlandspeople, why is it only 5 on GRONI? They need to look at the wildcard options and explain them better. And so on. If people feed back their individual frustrations (and compliments where appropriate) in sufficient numbers perhaps they may respond, and take some action.
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I have written to GRONI too suggesting that they need to start responding publicly with more information than is currently available, and perhaps explain some of the mysterious limitations. If you can search for 160 years at a time on Scotlandspeople, why is it only 5 on GRONI? They need to look at the wildcard options and explain them better. And so on. If people feed back their individual frustrations (and compliments where appropriate) in sufficient numbers perhaps they may respond, and take some action.
Think many of us are singing from the same hymn sheet. Here is part of what I said to them in emails last week:
I fully appreciate the early days of any new service can be fraught with glitches and problems, and that behind the scenes folks are no doubt working hard to resolve same. I would respectfully comment, however, the strong need to respond to emails in a timely fashion and/or (if it is an issue affecting numerous customers) keep customers aware of progress and expected outcome and/or resolution by means of a message on the website. Not responding to some customers emails on the subject whilst responding to other customers emails on the same subject, is not good PR. After all, it is important to instill confidence in a new service that will mean even at times in the future when there are glitches (and there no doubt will be), the customer can be sure that matters are in hand and have confidence that full service will be resumed in early course.
and
I don't deny that I find it has a number of issues that do not compare favourably with search methods/customer interface/accessibility/storage/etc incorporated in similar sites elsewhere, however it does have the unique selling point in its favour that the records it provides are not easily accessible otherwise - that in itself will mean it still gets plenty of custom, issues or otherwise.
Hopefully, though, it will become obvious, especially as more and more customers register and provide feedback, that changes might be needed. Ultimately, this is no bad thing, as constructive feedback can serve to highlight potential shortcomings and/or good points too and help a service provider who is open to receiving both praise and/or criticism, look towards embracing and implementing, ideas and suggestions that might ultimately improve the service for all involved.
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At least their 'Report Amendment' form seems to be working again, just used it to report another two (well, one if you take into account the births were twins) mis-transcripts. ::)
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The five year search is fixed by 40 year old legislation according to the report on the launch of the service here http://irish-genealogy-news.blogspot.co.uk
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The five year search is fixed by 40 year old legislation according to the report on the launch of the service here http://irish-genealogy-news.blogspot.co.uk
Pity they didn't think to get it altered in 2011, given that, I believe, the digitising of records and setting up of an online service was already in the pipeline at the time, when they updated various other issues from the Births and Deaths Registration (Northern Ireland) Order 1976 and Marriage (Northern Ireland) Order 2003 in the Civil Registration Act (Northern Ireland) 2011.
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The five year search is fixed by 40 year old legislation according to the report on the launch of the service here http://irish-genealogy-news.blogspot.co.uk
But when you go in person and search on GRONI's in-house system you can search for 11 years at a time. So I wonder how that reconciles with this statement? Sounds like round objects to me.
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;D
Although I feel more like :'( as I've now had to send a further three 'amendment requests' this evening, in addition to the one I posted about earlier.
Would love to know how many family history research addicts folks with a love of genealogy research, Beta tested the website and also what quality checks they applied to the new indexing.
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I have been reading through many of the posts on this thread and with one or to exceptions eg 'chrispaton' most have been about problems or complaints.
In the 10 days or so that GRONI has been online I have downloaded and printed off so much information that I now need to pause and spend time putting it into my family tree programme.
So far I have only bought 75 credits and have 35 still in my account! I think this is the best thing that has happened for family historians in NI for a long time.
Most info.I have found by using simply a surname and a 5 year age bracket search and the majority at NO Cost.
'chrispaton' has been most positive and I note he simply saves all the certificates and info to his computer so there is no need to refer to 'stored searches'. Once they are saved, they are saved!
In my case I just press 'PrintScreen' and it is saved to my photo programme. I can later crop and print off the pages or certificates. So I dont have to worry how long it stays in my stored searches.
I think of the couple of occasions I visited GRO in Belfast. £12 for sitting all day trying to find stuff till I was dizzy and getting 3 views of the records! I know what I would rather do.
The web site is far from perfect but for me its a pleasure to sit at home and research my geneology at my leisure.
fadge
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I agree that some of the comments posted here don't accurately reflect the 'balance' of what has happened.
That 'balance' is that we are definitely better off from having the online facility. Not worse off.
However, I do think there are aspects of the new online facility that GRONI could have done better (for example, the availability of wildcards), which are worth airing here and feeding back to GRONI.
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Gaffy.
Just trying to add a little weight to the positive side an express my appreciation for the new service. But of course GRONI can do better and I hope they will take on board the views expressed here.
fadge
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Hi,
I just purchased a civil death record from GRONI's online site for an individual who is recorded as "Patrick Morrow" in their index, however, the full record was actually for a "Patrick Morris". The writing on the certificate was very clear, and there was no ambiguity whatsoever as regards Patrick's surname. I was wondering if anybody else has had this trouble, and if so, how did they go about getting lost credits back. It is clearly GRONI that is at fault. I feel cheated and won't be happy until I have e-mailed someone at GRONI and at least attempted to get them back, as a matter of principle!!!
Thanks in advance,
Brendan
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Hi Brendan
At the bottom of the page of your on line registration printout there is an amendment button. I have used it to notify them of a transcription error, which they have refused to rectify, but others indicate they have had success.
Round 2 coming up!
Best of Luck
Twitter
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You can e-mail: gro.nisra@dfpni.gov.uk
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Thanks for that glensman. I sent an e-mail to the address you gave me. Hopefully they will reply in a day or two. Twitter, I sent an amendment as soon as I purchased the record. As of yet they haven't rectified their mistake.
One more thing, I now realise that before purchasing records online from GRONI it is best to double check the Irish Civil Registration Indexes on the familysearch.org website, just to make sure that both indexes match.
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I'm not thanking God for anything. Think I'll thank the airline that will take me to Belfast instead
;D
Matt.
I thank God for EVERYTHING in my life. Especially when I land safely in an airplane.