Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: MikeOz on Friday 08 March 13 02:11 GMT (UK)
Title: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: MikeOz on Friday 08 March 13 02:11 GMT (UK)
I am seeking information on my great grandparents who are buried at the Knockbreda Cemetery - James and Theresa Baillie
James Baillie was born around 1836 and was still alive in 1918
Theresa (or Teresa) was born around 1838 and was still alive in 1911.
My mother, who is 90 this year, knows very little about her family and I am hoping to piece some information together. She remembers cleaning their headstones in the 1920s when she was a little girl before leaving Ireland at a very young age. She also refers to the Cemetery as the Newtownbreda Cemetery (which I believe is the Knockbreda Cemetery – please correct me if I am mistaken). She used to live in Simpson’s Court (off Ormeau Road) near the Holy Rosary Church.
I am visiting her this coming St Patrick’s Day and would be ever so appreciative if some kind person could check this for me. Are there any photos of headstones in these cemeteries?
This is my first ever post on Rootschat. Thank you for your help :)
Mike
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: akanex2 on Friday 08 March 13 12:53 GMT (UK)
The UHF gravestone inscriptions book for Knockbreda graveyard includes only one Bailie/Baillie stone:-
"In memory of Ann Bailie who departed this life in 1806 aged 34 years. Also Robert Bailie who departed this life in 1818 aged 43 years. Likewise two sons of Robert's, viz. William who departed this life in 1819 aged 10 years and the other in infancy".
This source only lists stone with at least on pre 1900 burial so there may be a more recent one not recorded.
The Belfast City Council site doesn't include Knockbreda cemetery and I could see no likely matches on it for James and Teresa.
http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialrecords/
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: aghadowey on Friday 08 March 13 13:30 GMT (UK)
For reference, here's the family in 1911- www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Ormeau/Simpson_s_Court/217410
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: gaffy on Sunday 10 March 13 11:29 GMT (UK)
MikeOz, I hope someone posts here to sort you out in time.
In the interim, let me say that I usually pass Knockbreda Cemetery every week so called in yesterday for a few minutes to talk to the attendant in the cemetery office. All he has locally is the day book containing the owners of the plots and years of burials against them, he advised that any other records that exist would be held by Castlereagh Borough Council.
We looked through the 'B' surnames for Baillies (and variants) and could only find a William Baillie. In the event, when we went to look at the plot, the headstone was for a Dunlop. And of course, there's the problem, the plot owner won't necessarily be interred there - eg. that William Baillie could be a Dunlop inlaw.
There are some 6,500 plots in the cemetery and even taking on board the local knowledge of the attendant regarding where people in the 1910s - 1920s would be buried, you're still talking hundreds of plots. And there's the usual quotient of fallen headstones, headstones obscured by tress and bushes, weathered headstones (I noticed that some headstones as recent as 1940s were quite weathered, no doubt due to the upper part of the graveyard being on a height and facing north over Belfast City).
I can only suggest contacting Castlereagh Borough Council to see what more they can find in the way of records - ideally, if they can find James and Theresa, you need a section and grave number. If you post it here, I'm sure I or others here will endeavour to help you.
Given the time considerations, you could try emailing them, the address is at the very bottom of the page in this link.
http://www.castlereagh.gov.uk/Cemetery.asp
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: gaffy on Sunday 10 March 13 12:54 GMT (UK)
BTW, the 1911 census record suggests no children born to this couple?!? Is this a misunderstanding / mistake? The only marriage I can see is a James Bailey to a Teresa Lewis in 1860, is that the one?
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: MikeOz on Monday 11 March 13 00:26 GMT (UK)
I have been overwhelmed with the generous nature of the people here. Thanks to akanex2, aghadowey and especially to gaffy. You are amazing! I have followed up on your suggestion and have emailed Castlereagh Borough Council, so let’s see if they are in position to respond and have any further information at hand.
This line of research has taken me on many directions, and as I am sure that you would appreciate, the search can be quite convoluted at times. One of the reasons it has been difficult is that my mother’s parents both died when she was very young, her father from war injuries (he was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and ended up in Craigavon Hospital). This was the reason for leaving Belfast at a young age.
The trail that I have followed includes poorhouse records, orphanages, shipping records, naval ratings records, the census records of course (1901 and 1911 are brilliant, but I understand we have to wait to 2027 for the 1926 census!), familysearch and ancestry.com. There have been at least two adoptions in my family which explains why the lineage is not necessarily obvious in the records.
I also came across the James Bailey / Teresa Lewis record a couple of weeks ago and I have requested a copy of that film to be sent to my local LDS Family History Centre only last week. Fingers crossed. :)
Thank you again for your help and support.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: gaffy on Monday 11 March 13 04:17 GMT (UK)
... 1901 and 1911 are brilliant, but I understand we have to wait to 2027 for the 1926 census! ...
I hope Castlereagh Borough Council come back with something for you. Bad news on the impending (2016) release of the 2026 census, I'm afraid, it is for the Irish Free State, not the counties comprising Northern Ireland, this link explains the situation:
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: MikeOz on Wednesday 13 March 13 20:14 GMT (UK)
Success! The staff at Castlereagh Borough Council has been very, very helpful. For your information their records for Knockbreda Cemetery start around the 1930s and the information that they hold is limited in relation to burials before this period. Through the staff at the Cemetery office they have been able to find out the following information.
The plot, purchased under the name Theresa Bailie on 31 January 1912, is in the Old Church Yard and it is grave number 24a. There are two plots:
James Bailie, buried on 16 September 1914, aged 75
Jane Bailie, buried on 3 February 1912
Interestingly, there are no records of a burial for Theresa/Teresa Bailie.
Gaffy or others, I am humbly looking for some assistance again. I feel that I am now tantalisingly close. Thanks again for your help.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 13 March 13 20:22 GMT (UK)
Couold the Jane died 1912 be the missing Teresa? Online civil registration index should give her age. www.family.org
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: gaffy on Thursday 14 March 13 17:50 GMT (UK)
Hi MikeOz, I'm going to try and attempt to upload a few photos I took this lunchtime, bear with me if there are a few hiccups.
First of all, well done to you and Castlereagh Borough Council, for when I arrived at the cemetery, it was almost as if they were expecting me and one of the attendants took me straight to the grave. I hope no-one minds if I upload more than just the headstone inscription, in the circumstances I thought that some wider shots might add context and jog some old memories.
In the event, it turns out that the James Bailie headstone lies within the walled churchyard surrounding the church itself which has the oldest graves. Adjacent to the old churchyard is the main part of the cemetery with graves from the 1920s onwards, which accounts for most of the 6,500 graves - presumably this bit might well have been fields in your mother's time.
Anyway, photo 1 is of the front of the church, James' grave is to the left of the photo, obscured by bushes.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: gaffy on Thursday 14 March 13 17:52 GMT (UK)
This is the headstone, lovely and simply.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: gaffy on Thursday 14 March 13 17:59 GMT (UK)
The inscription is slightly at odds with the information that you were given, I reckon it says:
ERECTED BY TERESA BAILLIE IN MEMORY OF HER HUSBAND JAMES, WHO DIED JAN 31st 1912 AGED 76 YRS
ALSO OF HIS PARENTS AND BROTHER WILLIAM
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: gaffy on Thursday 14 March 13 18:03 GMT (UK)
The grave is in a nice spot, underneath a large yew tree, given how slow these grow, I wouldn't rule out it having been there as a younger tree in your mother's time.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: gaffy on Thursday 14 March 13 18:05 GMT (UK)
This shows the proximity of the grave (bottom right) to the front of the church.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: gaffy on Thursday 14 March 13 18:13 GMT (UK)
The headstone faces east. This photo from the side shows a glimpse of Belfast to the north. You can't see it, but Ormeau Road is only a mile or so away. You can see the churchyard wall. Beyond that (and out of sight because the ground drops off in height) is the main cemetery containing most of the cemetery graves from the 1920s onwards.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: gaffy on Thursday 14 March 13 18:16 GMT (UK)
Again, to show it's location in relation to the church, headstone is bottom right.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: gaffy on Thursday 14 March 13 18:19 GMT (UK)
And finally, standing on the steps of the church shown in the previous photo, here is the grave again.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: gaffy on Thursday 14 March 13 18:22 GMT (UK)
One other thing, I couldn't help but notice that the 1918 street directory on the Lennon Wylie website shows the following entries for Simpson's Court:
2. Baillie, Mrs. 4. Baillie, Jas., boiler maker
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/scomplete1918.htm
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: MikeOz on Thursday 14 March 13 23:49 GMT (UK)
Where to start? I just have to say that I simply adore my Irish ancestry! Gaffy, I cannot let you know how much this means to me. It is one thing to look up some records and discover one’s roots but it is a totally different feeling to know that my mother walked around these very grounds with her mother who is tending her mother’s grave. The photos that you have so kindly taken make me feel like I was there walking around with you, exploring and absorbing it all. I can almost smell the grass and the trees! Your kindness is beyond words.
I have poured over the photos since I woke up this morning. James’ details line up with what I know so far, in particular the 1911 census. His brother William will be another line of research that I will undertake.
The information from the Cemetery office does pose a puzzle or two. My first inkling is that the ‘Jane Bailie’, buried on 3 Feb 1912 is in fact James Baillie who died three days prior. Either the records have been mixed up or this is just a coincidence. If one follows that argument though, the ‘James Bailie’ listed in the office’s information may in fact be Teresa, passing away a couple of years later (the ages appear to line up). Again just a little surmising at this stage.
Finally I am aware of Lennon Wylie's website. A simply amazing amount of work! Apparently the Baillie's left No. 4 Simpson's Court in James' name after he passed away 6 years before. I guess that could be normal practice. And they appeared to have had a second residence. More avenues to explore.
I am well prepared to now catch up with my mum this weekend, thanks to the kindness of you all. She will be surprised (hopefully not too surprised) and I will let you know what transpires.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: MikeOz on Sunday 17 March 13 13:00 GMT (UK)
When the Knockbreda church photo came out, after getting into the moment with some census and naval service records, there was a small gasp and the words “the grave is there”, pointing to bushes on the left. When looking at the photos, the memories came flooding back, “I scrubbed that headstone so many times”. The graveyard looked much better kept than during her time. There was no sign of a yew back then and beyond the churchyard it was just countryside. She now wishes that she had learnt more about her family earlier on but was enjoying the nostalgic trip that this information took her on. :)
A couple of questions if I may.
We talked a lot about Simpson’s Court, which is no longer there now. I have seen it listed as early as 1880 in the Belfast Directory, and as late as 1959. The OSI historical maps do show some detail but they are too early. Does anyone have access to a Belfast map that shows Simpson’s Court, off Ormeau Road, near the Holy Rosary Church, just up from the roundabout with Ravenhill Road?
Also we spoke of my mother’s natural parents, who died while she was young. They are both buried at Milltown Cemetery. I have copies of their vital records (I understand that there isn’t a grave marker). My mother’s father was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers during WW1. He was injured and ended up back in Belfast after the war. He eventually died in Craigavon Hospital in 1924, possibly brought upon by his wounds. I have had a peak around (with little direction) with regards to Milltown, Craigavon and the Fusiliers but without much success. Probably not the right forum to ask but if anyone can give me some leads, I would be grateful.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: ards g on Saturday 23 March 13 19:34 GMT (UK)
The craigavon is probably what was called the UVF hospital in the belmont area of east belfast which is now derlict
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: aghadowey on Saturday 23 March 13 21:29 GMT (UK)
See here for UVF Hospital- http://www.belfastsomme.com/hospital.html
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: MikeOz on Thursday 04 April 13 00:49 BST (UK)
Thanks ards g and aghadowey. A very good lead. It is interesting that the UVF hospital, where my grandfather was assumed to be admitted as a WW1 injured solder and cared for, was in the Exhibition Hall (next to the Queen's University), which is but a short distance from where my grandmother grew up in Ormeau Rd. It is tempting to surmise that this proximity lead to their meeting and eventually marrying. Some of the pieces of the puzzle are starting to slot together. :)
I have order a copy of a map of South Belfast 1920 from mapsworldwide.com which includes Exhibition Hall and have just been informed that it is on its way. That should be enlightening.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: gaffy on Friday 05 April 13 05:55 BST (UK)
Both the Ormeau Road and the University Road were served from the City Centre by main tramways in the 1920s. Whether by tram or by foot, it wouldn't have been a long journey by various routes back then, for example, cutting across west from the Ormeau Road to the Kings Bridge / Ridgeway Street then north down the Stranmillis Road, or north down the Ormeau Road to just after the Ormeau bridge, then west across Agincourt Avenue and through Botanic Gardens (lovely walk).
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: MikeOz on Wednesday 17 April 13 14:44 BST (UK)
I have just received my ordered copy of the Old Ordnance Survey Maps of South Belfast 1920. Clear as day is Queens College (see attached extract) and the U.V.F Hospital in its grounds but unfortunately the map only covers a few square kilometres west of the River Lagan. So one question has been answered but Ormeau Rd and Simpsons Court still remain out of my grasp.
I have asked mapsworldwide.com but they cannot help any further as their source has not published this particular area of Belfast.
I would be grateful if anyone can let me know if they have a historical map of Belfast (late C19 to early C20) showing the area where Ormeau Rd and Ravenhill Rd meet. Simpsons Court would be just north of this intersection.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: geri_hill on Friday 19 April 13 17:47 BST (UK)
Mike
Just wanted to let you know that I have the name Baillie in my family tree also. My grandfather was Thomas Baillie Dugan. His Aunt was married to a Thomas Baillie who passed in 1917. Thomas Baillie's father was Hugh.
I don't know if there is a connection or not, but maybe....
I being from Canada, know how you feel about the generosity of these people on the genealogy websites in the UK. They have been so helpful and it is so appreciated.
Reading about your mom's reaction to the pictures brought tears to my eyes. What a beautiful gift you were given by these wonderful, caring people!
Kudos! Geri Hill
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: therave on Friday 27 March 20 19:02 GMT (UK)
Simpson's Court was located between Haywood Ave and Sunnyside St. It had a barber shop in it when my mother was growing up.
Curious about your Teresa, was she formerly Lewis? If so, my ggm's sister Margaret Maxwell was witness at her marriage, and her father Roger lived next door to my gggm Teresa Maxwell born Magee in Ballynafeigh, leased from Abraham Mcgee (suspect should read Ephraim Magee as is often recorded that way, who I believe was either Teresa Magee Maxwell's father or brother).
Believe this family connected to 1851 census Magee family in Lurgill, basketmakers. Teresa Baillie indicated she came from Lisburn, near Lurgill.
A Roger Lewis m Catherine Magee. Possibly Teresa Magee Maxwell's sister?
I've seen a record for progeny of Ephraim Magee living Simpson's Court, just can't find it again.
Will keep trying.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: HughC on Saturday 28 March 20 13:56 GMT (UK)
Has the original query been answered, or do you want me to pop up to Knockbreda cemetery and take a look? Not today because I'm feeling under the weather, but I don't have the patience to be ill so am determined to get better.
I imagine the attendant's office will be closed, but in any case I don't think they keep the books on the premises any more.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: aghadowey on Saturday 28 March 20 21:25 GMT (UK)
Can't find the link now but remember reading something this past week about people being discouraged from walking in cemeteries at the moment...
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: HughC on Sunday 29 March 20 14:51 BST (UK)
Can't find the link now but remember reading something this past week about people being discouraged from walking in cemeteries at the moment...
I can understand that if there have been recent burials. I thought Knockbreda has had no new burials for quite a while, but may be wrong. Presumably there'll be notices on the gates if they want to discourage us from going in.
Title: Re: Knockbreda Cemetery lookup - Baillie
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 31 March 20 09:38 BST (UK)
It's nothing to do with burials. The other day Derry City Cemetery said walkers but no cars then they said no walkers. Belfast Cemeteries are closed to public at the moment- here's their page for Knockbreda- https://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/community/cemeteries/knockbredacemetery.aspx
Coronavirus update In line with emergency legislation, our cemeteries are closed to the public, sculptors and contractors. Access is only allowed for funeral corteges.