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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: teinesamoa on Wednesday 06 March 13 20:21 GMT (UK)
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Can someone help me find the parents and/or siblings of Rosalie Sophie VORNIER, my great great grandmother, please? The information I have about her is very limited but Vornier is the correct spelling of her surname, as this is how she signed her marriage certificate.
• b abt 1829 in France. In 1871 census place of birth is very unclear – looks like B Sulgier (see attached)
• father was Louis VORNIER, a surgeon
(she moved from France to England around 1849, not sure if alone or with family?)
• she may have been a cabaret singer prior to her marriage
• m William ENGLAND 25 Nov 1850, Westminster London
• d abt Jan 1873, Kensington, London
• children
o Louis William b 30 Sep 1851 Marylebone, Middlesex
o Marie b abt 1853 Marylebone, Middlesex
o Walter John b Dec 1854 Lambeth, London
o William Frank b Oct 1855 London
o John Desire b 21 Apr 1861 Notting Hill, London
Thanks
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Hi
I think maybe it might says France B Subject .. as in British Subject ??
Cheers
Karenlee
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Hi
I think maybe it might says France B Subject .. as in British Subject ??
Cheers
Karenlee
You champion - I've been scouring French placenames to try and find something that looked possible, but of course you are right - I can see it now. So I will have to find another way to find out where in France she came from.
One mystery solved, at least, thanks to you!
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What do you think of this Rosalie, she could be yours. She was born in Anoeullin (Nord Department, France). Her parents are Louis Joseph Vornier and Prevost Sophie Joseph
http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/
(Archives en Ligne - Etat civil - Actes - (*) - Commune : Anoeullin - période : 1813 - Type d’acte : Marriages - Rechercher - click on the image in front of NMD 1813-1823)
(* click on : j’accepte les conditions)
mariage: Vornier Louis Joseph - Orevost Sophie Joseph 06/04/1818 Annoeullin (image 393)
Louis Joseph Vornier, 26 years, occupation: health officer and accoucheur (is this obstetric in english?)
his parents : Vincent Vornier - Marie Josephe Leblanc
Sophie Joseph Prevost, 20 years, journalière (day laborer ?)
her parents : Jacques Joseph Prevost - Augustine Joseph Montreul (Montreuil)
childeren
- Céline Joseph Vornier ° 07/05/1818 Annoeullin (same register as above image 401)
- Marie Joseph Vornier ° 13/01/1820 Annoeullin (same register as above : image 544)
- Rosalie Sophie Joseph Vornier ° 19/05/1822 Annoeullin (same register as above : image 737)
(Commune : Anoeullin - période : 1828 - Type d’acte : Naissances - NMD 1823-1832)
- Louis César Joseph Vornier ° 09/09/1828 Annoeullin (, image 431) (fathers profession : surgeon)
- Vincent Joseph Annœullin ° 15/08/1832 Annoeullin (same register as Louis César, image 762) (fathers profession : surgeon)
(Commune : Anoeullin - période : 1853 - Type d’acte : Décès - D 1852-1885)
Louis (Fortuné) Joseph Vornier + 14/01/1853 Annoeullin (image 41)
60 years, born in Lille, health officer, husband of Sophie Joseph Prevost, 54 years,
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Merci beaucoup for this information. This looks extremely promising and I could never have found this without your help! I'm pretty sure these are my ancestors even though this Rosalie's a little older than I had calculated. But perhaps because she was on the stage she wanted to seem younger. I don't know how to thank you enough, as I have been searching for her for ages.
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Sorry if these are silly questions but this is my first venture into French bdm records.
Can someone please tell me
1 what is the significance, if any, of my gg grandmother's Rosalie's parents, siblings and all her grandparents (bar Vincent) having Joseph as their middle name - is it a naming tradition of some sort, or to do with saint's names?
2 in the death registration for Louis, the word "Fortune" appears (e acute - sorry don't know how to insert accent on my keyboard), which I understand to mean well-off or wealthy. Is that like "esquire" in English at the time, to indicate that he was a gentleman or does it mean something else?
3 Annoeuillin in early 1800s, when Louis was the health officer/obstetrician, was a small township of around 3000. Is he likely to have practised in Annoeuillin or in Lille?
Any answers/comments appreciated
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1. Yes, it is common to have a saint's name (or names). Particularly telling when girls have "Joseph" or boys have "Marie".
2. It's just his middle name, which was probably left off some of the records; I have multiple relatives whose number and arrangement of first names changes in various records.
3. I would say that if he practised in Lille, he would have lived in Lille. However, it's quite possible that he covered not just Anoeullin but the surrounding area as well - I'm not sure how large an area would be assigned to a 'health officer' of the time.
http://nicole.deker.free.fr/fiches/fiche15063.htm#f105447
- this shows the family with more children, some died quite young, death dates recorded for everyone except Rosalie who is listed with ? (indeed!).
What is Rosalie's address on her marriage certificate? (and is it different from William's - could just be a 'suitcase address'). The evidence so far suggests to me that the witnesses at marriage will probably be from William's side of the family, or are just friends of the couple, but you might want to doublecheck that. Does it state an occupation for her at marriage? (presumably not "cabaret!")
It looks like photographer William did a fair bit of travelling in his time, too - they might have even met in Lille or Paris, or perhaps she found a job that took her to London. Very hard to track that for certain.
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Thanks so much for the answers to all my questions and especially for this link, which is absolutely amazing. I feel like you've saved me about a year's work in one post!
Rosalie's address at marriage is same as William's address (Star St) but I think they had been living together for a while as for the 1851 census, when William was still a shoemaker, they were living at Sherbourne Place in Marylebone. He is aged 20, she 25 in that census. No occupation stated for Rosalie at marriage - William still a cordwainer. I think there's a romantic story there!
I am extremely grateful for your assistance.
Kind regards
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A few additions to the family Vornier. Louis’ father was born in Saint-Mards-de-Fresne, departement Euse. Not in Calvados as it somewhere is stated in a cert. You can find the certs below on http://www.archivesdepartementales.cg59.fr/
Marriage of Vornier Vincent - Leblanc Marie Joseph : x Lille, parish of Saint Sauveur 06/10/1778 (image 341)
- Vornier Vincent, 25 years, ° Saint-Mards-de-Fresne, diocese of Lisieux, merchant grocer (marchand épicier), residing in this parish. Parents : Vornier Adrien and Faucon Barbe, both deceased
- Leblanc Marie Joseph, 22 years, born and residing in this parish, dressmaker. Parents : Leblanc Pierre Joseph and Freville Marie Magdelene
witnesses : - Rubruq Guillaume Joseph, merchant. Leblanc Pierre, father of the bride.
- Freville Francois Joseph and Freville Seraphin Joseph, maternal uncles of the bride.
Childeren
Baptism certificates - Lille, parish Saint-Sauveur (= : means baptized)
- Vornier Louis Vincent Joseph ° Lille 21/05/1779 / = 21/05/1779 (image 896)
father : merchant grocer (md épicier), present
godfather : Leblanc Pierre Joseph. godmother : Freville Marie Magdeleine
- Vornier Francois Joseph ° Lille 16/09/1781 / = 16/09/1781 (image 62)
father : ambulant merchant, pedlar (md forin ?), absent because of his profession
godfather : Freville Francois Joseph. godmother : Therij Elisabeth Petronille Joseph
+ 31/01/1800 in the hospital at Calais, inscribed in the register at Lille 27/03/1803 (image 389)
cannoneer of the artillery company named 2e de Lionne
- Vornier Louis Fortuné Joseph ° Lille 15/11/1792 / = 15/11/1792 (image 1155)
father : merchant grocer (md épicier), present
godfather : Cambij ? Charles Louis Joseph (signature : Ouvrij). godmother : Cabij Marie Joseph
Birth certificate - civil registration Lille (French Republican Calendar)
- Vornier Adrien Joseph ° Lille 23 pluviôse year 2 or 11/02/1794 (image 368 - 369)
father : 40 years, merchant grocer (marchand épicier) mother : 37 years, address : rue des Etaques at Lille
Witnesses : Francomme Melchior François, 29 years, cotton merchant, address : rue des Républiquains at Lille and
Demori Marie Angelique Victoire, 23 years, dressmaker, address : rue de l’Arc at Lille, wife of Noblat Balthazar Joseph
Vornier Vincent + Lille 10/08/1821 - (image 709)
72 years old, native of Saint Marcq, owner (propriétaire), husband of Leblanc Marie Joseph, son of the deceased Adrien and Faucon Barbe, died at 17:00 in the house situated in the Rue Fivel n° 43. The declarants are Eycken Louis, 45 years, merchant and Dequeker Louis, 30 years, watchmaker, both friends of the deceased.
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Vornier ‘s in Saint-Mards-de-Fresne - department Eure
Link to ‘archives départementales de l’Eure’
http://archives.cg27.fr/pleade/index.shtm
click on ‘Etat Civil'
click next to ‘Commune’ on ‘voir la liste’
click on ‘Saint-Mards-de-Fresne’ (left on the screen)
you can enter a date in the box next to ‘Année’ but that is not necessary
the box next to ‘Type de document’ must be on ‘Registre’ (the other is ‘Table’, that’s the index)
click on ‘Rechercher’ - now click on the register that you want
Vornier Adrien - Faucon Barbe
Childeren
- Vornier Marie ° Saint-Mards-de-Fresne 31/12/1749 / = 01/01/1750 / father : day laborer // image 72
godfather : Faucon Francois, son of Robert, from St-Vincent-du-Boulay
godmother : Le Gendre Marie, wife of Vornier Nicolas, from St-Germain-la-Campagne
- Vornier Vincent ° Saint-Mards-de-Fresne 27/01/1753 / = 28/01/1753 / father : day laborer // image 93
godfather : Conard Vincent, laborer, from St-Mards-de-Fresne
godmother : Simon Magdeleine, wife of Faucon Charle, from St-Vincent-du-Boulay
- Vornier Adrien Martin ° Saint-Mards-de-Fresne 11/11/1758 / pa : Adrien // image 120
godfather : Andrieu Jean, farmer, son of the late Robert, from St-Mards-de-Fresne
godmother : Deriot Magdelaine, daughter of Jacques, from St-Mards-de-Fresne
Vornier Adrien + Saint-Mards-de-Fresne 25/09/1761 / (+) 26/09/1761 // ca 47 jaar // image133
Year 1761, 26 September, the body of Adrien Vornier, died yesterday, ca 47 years old, is buried in the cemetry of St-Mards-de-Fresne, by us , the undersigned, parish priest of the place mentioned, in the presence of ‘la charité de St-Vincent-du-Boulay’ and the undersigned witnesses.
I’m not sure it’s the correct Adrien. There is another death of a Adrien Vornier, but that’s in 1757 (image 112).
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Hi
I'm absolutely astonished at the amount of information you've managed to find, and very very grateful for it.
Thanks once again
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Just a matter of luck (and curiosity)
It’s not complete of course, there must be more childeren, marriages, etc. Also in Lille and Anoeullin.
Keep in mind that I may have spelled the names incorrectly or made mistakes with the occupations. The writing is not always clear. Is ‘md’ an abbreviation of merchant ? and I’m not sure of the army unit of Francois Vornier.
good luck in your search
groetjes
Leen
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My curiosity is also piqued - I'm looking forward to finding out more, especially as this strand of my ancestral family lived in a such a historic part of Europe, in terms of the events of the 19th and 20th centuries! My mother didn't know why her father's middle name was "Desire" (a name for which I'm sure he often got teased as a young Kiwi lad) but to find this extraordinarily rich thread being the origin of the name is so rewarding. Thanks again for all your help - I'm gaining confidence on www.archives.departmentales, surprised that the school-girl French stored away in my memory banks is still able to be retrieved and is in fact useful! Will see what other children I can find, as there are long gaps between children in some marriages.
I had thought that perhaps my gggrandmother Rosalie had severed all ties with her famiy when she went to London but have found her niece, Eliza Vanheuverswyn (although name is misspelt in census record), working as a photo mounter for Rosalie's photographer husband William, after Rosalie had died.
Thanks a million for your help - faafetai tele lava