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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: christiek on Wednesday 27 February 13 15:07 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
My family are really interested in finding out about our family's longstanding association with Bamburgh Castle and the Blacksmiths shop at Bamburgh. We know where it is, it's now a holiday home (my husband was actually hired to help renovate it) - I'm just wondering where we can find documents regarding the blacksmiths shop.
We think the first direct ancestor to have the Blacksmiths shop was David Knox, born October 1844 in Wooler/Flodden. We don't know why he moved from Wooler to Bamburgh or indeed anything about his parents, apart from that I think they were called James Knox and Margaret. In 1881 census he is listed as the blacksmith and living in Village main street. According to the censuses by the time he died in 1891 aged 47, he was a small grocer (is that a shopkeeper?) so we presume he passed the blacksmiths shop onto his son.
I would have thought that the shop would have passed onto James Knox, aged 21 in 1891 who was working there as a Blacksmiths assistant but in the 1901 census he has moved to Newcastle and has become a bricklayer. The blacksmiths shop seems then to have passed onto John Tait Knox (born 1877 Bamburgh) who was the apprentice in 1891. In 1911, he is listed as the Blacksmith. He died in 1945.
Now obviously after this, we don't have census's to rely on, but we do know that the eldest son David Knox (1898), even though he's listed as John Tait Knox's child the speculation always was that he was another mans child and he was treated differently, according to the next generation who I've interviewed. What I do know is he didn't take over the Blacksmiths shop but instead was a bit of a drifter after he got discharged from the army after the war and was only intermittantly in touch with the family.
The Blacksmiths shop actually passed onto the eldest daughter Elizabeth Knox, which I found very interesting....nobody is sure when she actually took it over, it could have been long before John Tait Knox died. There is a photo of her floating around somewhere in full blacksmiths gear. She never married and apparently ran the blacksmiths shop by herself, taking on apprentices.
At some point she retired from being a blacksmith but continued living at the same family home on village main street Bamburgh until her death.
As a matter of interest, we are actually descended from the youngest son, Selby who was born in 1917.
The family are really interested in anything to do with the blacksmiths shop. We would love to know first of all whether the family owned the blacksmiths shop or whether it was leased by the castle to them. We would like to know when our family became associated with the blacksmiths shop, was it the first David Knox (born 1844) or was there a Knox as a blacksmith there before him?
I've looked at the churchyard in Bamburgh and there are a lot of Knox's with quite similar names in the preceding generations in the churchyard, but I've not managed to get back any further.
Also whether the Blacksmiths shop was sold when Lizzie retired or whether it was always the property of the castle. We do know it was in an abandoned condition for about 20 years before it was redeveloped.
Also, I'm really interested in finding out anything about Lizzie/Elizabeth Knox as she's the first female ancestor I've come across who did something I'd consider slightly out of the ordinary (a lot of the females seemed to go into service as housemaids).
Any advice on where we'd find interesting extras (beyond birth/death/marriage certificates) on the history of Blacksmiths in Bamburgh would be really helpful. Even if it's just recommending websites/books. This is the first time I've tried tracing the history of a building and I don't have a clue!
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When did Elizabeth Knox die?
Did she leave a Will ?
If she owned, rather than was a tenant, of the Blacksmiths, then that may help you find where it went to next.
IF it was owned by the Lord of the Manor and just leased out, then it wouldnt necessarily stay within the family.
The Local Record Office would then be the place to look to see if they hold any surviving records of the tenancies.
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There is an entry in the Probate and Admin Index for the David Knox you refer to , who died 1891.
But he didnt leave a WIll, as there is only Administration granted, not Probate.
Seems he was still a blacksmith, though, when he died.
Here is the entry -
David Knox of Bamburgh Northumberland Blacksmith died 18 Oct 1891 Administration Newcastle Upon Tyne 31 January 1896 to Jane Knox widow Effects £103 - 8s
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St Mary Wooler
29th December 1844
David Knox
son of James and Margaret
father a blacksmith
abode Wooler
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When did Elizabeth Knox die?
Did she leave a Will ?
If she owned, rather than was a tenant, of the Blacksmiths, then that may help you find where it went to next.
IF it was owned by the Lord of the Manor and just leased out, then it wouldnt necessarily stay within the family.
The Local Record Office would then be the place to look to see if they hold any surviving records of the tenancies.
The family don't seem to know, the general consensus seems to be the 1970's. Sadly she was the one who had all the family photos and my father in law said that they paid a removal company to clear out the entire contents of her house and all the photos and everything were chucked out. Sadly, they didn't even pay for a headstone for her grave and nobody now knows where exactly she's buried. I was quite shocked actually, I know from researching on my side that unmarked graves were common in the the 1800's, but in the 1970's?
I think it's a bit sad when she was obviously quite a forward thinking lady.
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The Post Sunday 14th Jan 1917
Girl of eighteen as blacksmith's striker
Berwick, Saturday
A girl of eighteen, Lizzie Knox the daughter of the Bamburgh blacksmith, is working from morning to night as blacksmith's striker, assisting her father in making horseshoes and in all other heavy work of the smithy.
She has thus freed her nineteen year old brother to join the army. From the outbreak of the war he has been anxious for some arrangement to be made which would allow him to enlist.
Boo
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I think this is her birth reg -
JAn/Feb/Mar 1899
Belford Registration district Ref: 10b 462 (Belford covers Bamburgh)
Lizzie Ann Knox
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And i wonder if this is her death - a little later than you were thinknig though
Feb 1985
Northumberland North Second
Ref 1 2465
Elizabeth Ann Knox age 86
d-o-b 25 Dec 1898
(that would fit with a birth reg in 1st quarter of 1899)
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Does Bamburgh Castle not have its own library,I would have thought the history of the village would be well documented there,
this seems a fascinating post and I am sorry I cant help out,but I will be watching it out of interest,
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I've just asked my FIL, and he was like "Oh yeah, it was the 80's" - his memory is not so good, so it could well have been 1985. Thank you for looking for me, that's been really helpful.
Re: a will. I'm not sure whether she had a will or not. If she left money, that makes it even more shocking if no-one paid for a headstone. How do I find out? Do I write to the postal searches department at York or would it be available locally from my local records office?
Would the record office in Berwick be the place to look regarding tenancies in Bamburgh?
Thanks for the information in the probate and admin index. May I ask where you find this information? I'm signed up to Ancestry but none of the other sites.
Radcliff - is that the baptism record? If so, that's useful and very interesting to know that James Knox was a blacksmith. I tried looking for the parents graves in St Mary's churchyard in Wooler, fascinating and very atmospheric place but no luck. I think they must be in the civil cemetery, which I am yet to find.
I've just emailed the castle to ask them whether they have any old records or a local history library and if not, where their old records are stored, so hopefully I will hear back from them. Thanks.
Tickettyboo - can I see old copies of the Post from the records office do you know? That is really fascinating, thank you.
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Sorry if some of these questions seem pretty stupid, I'm pretty new to researching beyond clicking buttons on Ancestry and asking family.
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I dont think any thing you say is stupid at all,
David Knox isnt a comon name in Northumberland,
and the fact that this particular Davids father is a blacksmith,leans me towards them being his parents,
Have you accesed Davids marriage records to double check,his fathers name,
1851 census,which I am sure you have has James the blacksmith born Scotland,possible sister aged 53 apears in the same household,Margaret is born Wooler as are her children, a baby Mary Knox apears to have been buried Wooler,aged 1 year and 1/4 March 5th 1851
Sarah Glaister nee Knox wife of John Glaister,he is a blacksmith in Wooler
child Thomas is her 5th son
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No, your questions are not at all stupid. The best way to find things out is to ask and you are asking all the right questions :-)
Baptisms - I don't know where Radcliffe got the info, but FreeReg is a good place to look and it has a reasonable coverage for Northumberland which grows each month :-)
http://www.freereg.org.uk
I searched for baptisms in Northumberland 1844 +/- 2 years and specified the surname as KNOX. I got a list of 19 results and there is an entry for David Knox, which gives the info that Radcliffe posted.
Probate Calendar for England and Wales - there is a searchable database on Ancestry for the years 1858-1966
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1904
and they give an explanation of what the Calendar is
For later years (up to present day), if you can get to Newcastle the Probate Registry there let you look at the calendar for free, no appointment needed, there are pcs in the reception area where you can do a search and see if there is an entry. Or if you request a look up in the forum someone may be going and do the search for you
Don't discount the possibility that there is no headstone because that may have been her wish. No headstone doesn't always mean no one would pay for one. Unless you know for certain that she 'was' buried, also bear in mind that in the 1970s/1980s there is a possibility she may have been cremated.
Boo
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Ticketyboo you are quite correct I use Freereg,family search,Margaret Hs site for Newcastle,Genuki,Durham records online,freebmd,to name a few,I wont pay for anything unless I have to, and my good old search box can bring some very interesting information,for geography I rely on Mr Dixon,my friends in North Shields library,plus a few fee paying sites,to look for information,
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This has given me loads to go on, thank you. It seems from researching sideways as well as up that the Knox's seemed to have some connection to a lot of the blacksmiths in the area. I know from the 1950's onwards there was a Knox blacksmith in Lesbury who was also related to us. I'm finding this line of the family tree really interesting.
Due to financial constraints I tend to try to get as much free as possible and then apply for the odd record when I can afford it, mainly to clarify the information I already have or if I'm getting stuck. Luckily, the furthest the family have travelled so far is Wooler and I live in one of the villages in North Northumberland so where finances are a restraint, location is a plus!
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My only issue I have with the 1851 census is that in it James Knox's birth date is about 1798 but in the later censuses his birth date is listed as around 1821...that seems like a really big jump doesn't it?
But looking at it, the rest of the childrens birth dates add up, the James Knox in later censuses is still living at the same street with the same wife and is still a blacksmith. Just wondering why there is such a big margin of error, where in the space of 10 years, his birth date jumps forward 20 years!
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My only issue I have with the 1851 census is that in it James Knox's birth date is about 1798 but in the later censuses his birth date is listed as around 1821...
Do you have the reference for that census? (that helps others to look at a census entry)
I had a look and if its HO107 piece 2422 folio 397 page 34 (Cheviot Street, Wooler) then the image I see says James is 33, so that would give a birth date of c1818, which is a lot nearer to the date you were expecting?
addition: Ah yes, its been misread as '53' by the transcriber on ancestry, so his year of birth has gone in the database as 1798. Its always best to check the actual image, transcription errors are a fact of life :-)
Boo
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The first place I would look would be in Lord Armstrong's archives as he owned? the village at that time. I know they had no children and the estate passed to a g nephew.
I cannot remember whether the papers are still in private hands or at Woodhorn - the NBL archives. Or even at the PRO at Kew.
He had so many properties, zoning in on the Bamburgh papers might be tricky. Best to ask the archivists....
Give it a bit of googling, that should tell you. Or ping an E at the chief archivist at Woodhorn - Sue Wood.
I might be there on Wed morning so can ask then.
Gen in NBL England
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The first place I would look would be in Lord Armstrong's archives as he owned? the village at that time.
William George Armstrong purchased Bamburgh Castle in 1893 but did not purchase the village. His archives are held at Tyne and Wear Archives.
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Thanks for all this information everyone, it's given me a lot to go on, though time is now quite constrained because I'm now a trainee nurse (unfortunately an English degree and an interest in history has got me nowhere, so I'm retraining).
Just because I know some of you said you were interested in how this develops, I thought I'd update. I've got no further forward with my quest to find out the history of the Blacksmiths shop in Bamburgh, the castle replied and said they didn't keep any information locally but that Newcastle Library and Council offices had their records, but if I dig up anything showing a long-standing connection, please keep them informed as they are always interested in new displays.
However, I've recently got some information from someone who is related by a common ancestor, which I've been checking out. Turns out that David Knox's grandfather was also a blacksmith, but he emigrated from Wooler to Boston, US and did very well for himself. He invented machinery that revolutionised shoe production and he was the alderman and then mayor of Boston and was also on the waterboard. So that has been very fascinating indeed. I've also been quite pleased to see that I've now firmly placed the Knox's lineage in Selkirk, Roxburghshire, which means that it is a possibility that we are descended from the Macfarlane Knox's, which once again is quite interesting and gives me hope that researching this line might be a hobby for some years to come. I'm trying not to get too carried away though and I'm trying to consolidate all the information I have for the generations I was originally working with to make sure I don't make any mistakes further down the line.