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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => US Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Michael ONeil on Wednesday 27 February 13 13:19 GMT (UK)
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Wondered if it was possible for someone in the area to check out the following at Calvary?
I'd like the section, range, plot and grave details for the following burial which occurred at Calvary Cemetery and if there are any other family members’ details associated with the plot. I am hoping there might be a spouse James O’Neil and/or parents Norman Ames and Mary (Beechinor) Ames in the same location.
Name of deceased: Angela (Ames) O’Neill
Date of burial: 5th April 1902
Death certificate number: 10587
Address of deceased: 121 E. 82nd Street, Manhattan
Undertaker: J. F. Smith
Address of undertaker: 1467 3rd Avenue
Am hoping for the extra family info if there but I'd like to make a photo request on the Find A Grave site.
Cheers.
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Hello...
Angela (A) O'Neill is buried in Calvary Cemetery at:
Section One West
Avenue V
Plot #3
Graves 10, 11, 12
For once I got a very helpful lady on the phone at Calvary and she stated that Angela (aged 48) is buried in Grave #11. These 3 plots were purchased April 7, 1869 by someone named Johanna Goode. She also stated that since it is a 3 grave plot. there "are a lot of people in there", however, she did not convey any other names to me. Hopefully, if there is still a headstone, you might be able to get additional information.
In case you do not have it yet, I have found a copy of her obituary from the NY Herald, although it won't let me attach it for some reason.
Best Regards!
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Items can't be attached on the lookup boards.
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The Obituary was covered in a previous thread:-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,635316.0.html
Sandra
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Thanks, Shellyesq - I'm still learning how the site works.
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I am so glad I joined this forum - thanks so much everything.relative I really appreciate that.
Just so you know, Joanna Goode was Angela's aunt - Joanna Beechinor married a George Goode and Angela's parents were Norman Ames and Mary Beechinor. George Goode died in January 1869 so the plots were probably purchased in response to that. I'm trying to find the last resting place of Angela's husband James O'Neil (death reputed to be NY in 1905-06) and was hoping he might be with her. My evidence however appears to indicate that Angela and James were estranged so I'm not too hopeful and I reckon the plots will be Beechinor related as that family appear to be the connecting family in my research.
As was mentioned the obituary was covered on another thread and that lead gave me the info for the death certificate and place of burial and hence to this thread. I have written to Calvary in the hope that they can give me the related info for the other graves and I'll obviously post something up on Find A Grave.
Once again a really big thanks for this.
Michael.
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I do photo requests for Old Calvary a/k/a Calvary 1 a/k/a St. Calixtus Division. I will add O'Neill to my list, as I have 3 other photo requests in 1 West. The stock photo is not the correct photo for Calvary 1.
(http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l510/barbny814/Calvary/OldCalvaryEntrance_zpsb379c55c.jpg)
[URL=http://s1121.photobucket.com/user/barbny814/media/Calvary/CrucifixEntance1_zps8a38639b.jpg.html](http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l510/barbny814/Calvary/CrucifixEntance1_zps8a38639b.jpg) (http://[URL=http://s1121.photobucket.com/user/barbny814/media/Calvary/OldCalvaryEntrance_zpsb379c55c.jpg.html)
The photos are mine, taken before Easter -- by me. My copyright -- you are free to use them.
Barbara Carpenter
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Hi Barbara,
I really appreciate your offer but there's no need.
Since posting I'd written to Calvary asking for more info about the plot and the 3 graves. I had a bit of a double take when I saw their reply - they told me there are 19 people buried there and at first I thought it said $18.00 for the info but it was in fact $180.00!!!
So I posted a request on findagrave hoping for a headstone that might possibly include Angela's husband James but unfortunately there wasn't one.
Thinking about writing and asking specifically about James and enclosing a $10.00 donation - that way I can put to bed the possibility of James being buried with his wife.
Anyhow thanks again - hope you read this before your visit.
Michael.
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I live a few blocks from there. Since you have the location section, etc. I will take a look. I'm not sure what the $18 is for.
I know 1 West. It could be a mausoleum because 1 West is the only section with mausoleums. I will take a look at what is at the location. You think it's 1905 or 1906 for his date of death?
These are the James O'Neills in the NYC death index:
Surname Given Name Age Month Day Year Certificate
O'Neill James 75 y Jun 16 1905 19883 Manhattan O540
O'Neill James 59 y Apr 21 1905 7829 Kings O540
O'Neill James 51 y May 8 1905 2074 Bronx O540
O'Neill James 1 m Oct 1 1906 19231 Kings O540
O'Neill James 54 y Sep 29 1906 30424 Manhattan O540
O'Neill James 67 y Nov 14 1906 34872 Manhattan O540
O'Neill James 53 y Dec 3 1906 36807 Manhattan O540
O'Neill James J 37 y Oct 12 1905 4456 Bronx O540
O'Neill James J 33 y Jun 20 1906 19590 Manhattan O540
O'Neill James P 11 y Nov 28 1905 36418 Manhattan O540
barb
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Hi Barb (hope you don't mind?),
James was born 1846 in Ireland. I do know he was dead by February 1907 for certain because his son's wedding certificate in Liverpool UK says he was deceased. The 1905 date for his death comes from his sister's 1916 probate in NYC. It's a typed up document but the year has been handwritten in pencil as if they weren't sure. The executor was a brother and the 1906 date comes from the brother's son when writing to my aunt in the late 1950s. So I've had a 2 year period to check - in 1905 he'd have been 59 and in 1906 he'd have been 60. Obviously I've given myself more years than this as leeway. As far as the records at the NYC death index I've already had the 2074 record checked out. I need to check my files about 30424 (rings a bell) - the rest seemed unlikely?
The findagrave link to Angela (Ames) O'Neill is:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSmid=47373985&GRid=105930938&
The photographer's reply was "There was no headstone,the Flag represents the plot location." As I said I was hoping there would be a headstone because I didn't want to pay $180.00 for the interment list which I anticipate would contain the names Goode, Beechinor, Carroll, Ames and Dickers and hopefully James O'Neil.
Thanks again - Michael.
I also manage the rest of James' family (siblings and parents) at a different location in Calvary.
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Sorry meant to say $18.00 was what I first thought Calvary's price was for the interment list but I'd misread this - it was $180.00. The $10.00 was what I thought I could get away with 'donating' for them just to check if James O'Neil is on that list.
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This looks likely.
O'Neill James 59 y Apr 21 1905 7829 Kings O540
Accuracy was not much of a concern, more or less, it did not seem to matter to get an accurate date of birth to calculate age at death.
It's possible no stone exists. This is the oldest of the Calvaries and, though full, it is not. Which means people did not put up a stone or the stone is long gone, especially if not made of granite but sandstone. When I get there I can see what it is at the site.
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Hi Barb,
Cheers for that. I did check that one out back in 2009 as well as the following (first two were long shots in case the 3 had been mistaken for 5 in their ages):
O'Neil James 37 y May 1 1905 15129 Manhattan O540
O'Neil James 37 y Aug 16 1905 15920 Kings O540
O'Neill James 59 y Apr 21 1905 7829 Kings O540
O'Neill James 51 y May 8 1905 2074 Bronx O540
O'Neil James 61 y Dec 25 1907 25764 Kings O540
James O'Neil, Kings, April 21, 1905, Age 59, Cert No. 7829. Death certificate details read:
Certificate stamped Department of Health, Borough of Brooklyn, April 23 1905
James O'Neill. MD attended the deceased from February 23 1905 to April 20 1905 and deceased died on 21 April 1905 about 11 pm from "nephritis and aortic valve disease"
Residence: 211 North 6 Street (or North E Street)
MD lived at 192 North 6 Street (or North E Street)
Father's name: unknown
Father's birthplace: Ireland
Mother's name: unknown
Mother's birthplace: Ireland
Married
Occupation: Engineer
Birthplace: Irelnd
How long in US: 40 years
Buried at Calvary Cemetery on 24 April 1905.
Undertaker: G G Montrose of 149 No 3 Street (or could be North 3 Street
Now it could be him. The age is right, the birth locations of parents are right, he did live in Brooklyn from 1871-75 so there is that connection. OK I can live without the lack of parents' names and the fact that he'd been in the USA for 53 years as opposed to the stated 40 - as you say it's best not to pin your hopes on absolute accuracy but and it's a big but - it's the occupation. He'd been a liquor/tea dealer on Chambers Street and Water Street (Brooklyn) and his son's wedding certificate in Liverpool says his father was a deceased salesman - seems a far cry from Engineer?
So with no more 'realistic' info to check I had nothing to go on until I found his wife's burial info. My inclination says that they were estranged but she kept the surname O'Neil and also her maiden name (Ames) with O'Neil - that's how it appears on the death certificate and obit. So I was hoping that maybe James was buried later with her. Someone said that as it's a family plot of three graves and 19 people buried there it seems unusual that there's no headstone but as you said it might never have existed or has long gone. Whilst my other family plot of 2 graves elsewhere in Calvary has a headstone it's quite simply marked 'O'Neil' so that wouldn't help people a lot if they were researching that family would it???
Anyhow cheers for that - just thought I'd let you know I reckon I've covered what I can already.
Michael.
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O'Neil James 59 y Apr 21 1905 7829 Kings
If you know he's in Calvary, call 718-786-8000 and give full name and date of death. They will give you the location of the Section, Range, etc. By Section you will know which of the 4 Calvaries that James O'Neill is buried in.
Many people woud come here and not be able to find the work that they did in the original country, so they worked at what they could. If one thing did not work out, they became a carpenter or a saleman -- whatever gave them a paycheck.
If you cannot call, let me know. You may find that he's buried in Calvary but in another grave since they were estranged. She likely would not have changed her name, nor divorced. Possible, but unlikely.
At the time, Calvary was the Catholic Cemetery when St. Patrick's was already full and the NY law stated no cemeteries could be in Manhattan (New York county). So, the Archdiocese bought the area of Calvary 1 and it quickly filled -- resulting in them buying and creating 3 more Calvaries a bit further east in Queens County. I'd say it's still likely he's buried in Calvary 1, assuming that that James is your relative and he does seem the closestt.
Accuracy was not important. If he had no relative contacts when he died, neighbors and friends might be asked for length of time in the U.S. -- and 40 years was a good guess when friends did not know exact year, so they "guessed" knowing it was a long time just not how long ago. Engineer, he may have been one in Ireland or trained, but never could find enough work as an Engineer here.
A liquor dealer could be a liquor salesman -- they might not want to have mentioned liquor (already becoming controversial here in the first decade of 1900) and felt that "salesman" covered his profession without divulging what he sold.
I have found that people were suspicious of government - our own and their home country. I have one family where the father used 3 different years of birth to cover up 2 previous marriages -- and then a new first name for his third (but not final marriage) -- to cover up that the first two marriages were not marriages at all or without benefit of divorce. But it was him. And in early 1900s, this was easy to do because the enumerator or doctor did not bother to check things like exact time in country or did he spell his name O'Neil or Neil when he signed up for work or moved to a new lodging house? And there were no social security numbers. You'd be surprised at the inaccuracies that were intentional so the government could not really keep track and how easy it was.
Also, your relative may have entered through Canada, spent some time there, and then left for the U.S.
Unfortunately, you are dealing with a common name. I found no marriage between James O'Neil and either Angela or Hannah Ames in NYC.
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Hi Barb,
Thanks for the reply.
Quite simply I don't know for sure he's in Calvary - in fact I don't know where he's buried - that's been one of my mysteries. His parents and 6 siblings are buried in the O'Neil plot in Calvary I mentioned earlier (see link) and another 2 siblings are buried in Akron, Ohio. I've got the death certificates for all bar Mary A. O'Neil who despite me having the obit, burial details and complete probate package (running to nearly a 100 pages) - there's no death certificate for her at NYCMA. Tried everything I can to find out what happened there but no joy. Anyhow as I don't know for certain I couldn't see any point about calling Calvary about James given that I don't have much to go on other than the plot and graves info for Angela. Anyhow James (my direct ancestor) has gone annoyingly AWOL and I've been researching this for nearly 20 years. Discovering his wife's (estranged or not) burial details was quite simply a lead I had to check - was he buried with her?
I agree with your point about accuracy by the way - some of the death certificates I have are way out as far as time in USA, some are years out as far as age and you'd think that the 3 sisters never aged between 1900 and 1910 on the censuses. It seems it was the women who lied more about their age (hmmm?).
Anyhow James married Hannah Angela Ames 30 April 1873 at St Teresa's on Henry Street and their son (also James who married in Liverpool) was born 21 Feb 1874 at 97 Bergen Street Brooklyn. The marriage details state Liquor Dealer whereas the birth certificate states Clerk for James. The second part of his naturalisation process 9 Oct 1876 states Tea Dealer. I suppose he could have re-trained as an engineer but I just can't see it myself. Plus why would his son put Salesman down on his wedding certificate in Liverpool - to me Engineer sounds far grander.
It is interesting that you mention Canada. I have correspondence between a nephew and one of my aunts from the late 1950s. He says that he'd talked to his mother (married to one of the brothers in Akron and in her early 90s) and she said that James' son had part of his schooling in Canada but offers no explanation for this and stayed at their home between 1890-1892. He would have been 16 in 1890 so the schooling must have been before then - why Canada I've no idea but I have thought that either his mother Angela or father James had moved there but can't make any headway on that.
Sorry for the convoluted reply - I have cut it short but I wanted to answer some of your points.
Michael.
PS on a side note and as a really big favour. If you were to call Calvary do you think they might have a death certificate number or place of issue attached to the burial info for the Mary I mentioned at the start?
Mary Ann O'Neil
Age 81
Buried 16 June 1916
Section 4, Range 15, Plot D, Grave 2.
She died 13 June 1916 and her obit said at her late residence (106 E12th Street), funeral at 9.30 AM. Calvary did supply me with the O'Neil interment list back in 2002 and I knew for certain that some of the ages were wrong because I have the baptismal records. However when I started getting the death certificates the information on them matched the info that Calvary had supplied - ergo Calvary's information must have come from the certificates in the first place - so where did they get the information regarding Mary?
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Hard to imagine 19 people buried in an unmarked grave, unless it was sandstone and eroded away. At some point, I would imagine a headstone would have been put up. I was going to check today -- I have about 8 people to search for graves but it's raining today. I know this cemetery and nothing is numbered correctly or makes any sense. It sometimes takes me more than one attempt. I have even had to call the office to send a groundsman out to where I am when I am in a section and cannot find not one grave on my list.
Can you get a copy of the death certificate for the James who was 59? #7829. Is he a possibility as Hannah's estranged husband and father of James born in Brooklyn? The death certificate should show where burial was to take place. Let me know if you have it; I may be able to get 7829 pulled.
As for Mary Ann -- she could be listed as Maryann, or any number of spellings such as Maryanne -- Mary Anne, etc. in the NYC death index. Even Margaret would not surprise me. People changed first names as easy as they changed the spellings of last names. Many if not most were suspicious of records and government. Move to another state, abandon your wife and child, change your name a bit and change your year of birth and marry again -- no problem.
As for Mary Ann's death, if the county coroner (at the time) or medical examiner now, had no record to go on he would have had to rely on what he was told by relatives as to age and date of birth. If she had no living contacts, they would do their best to approximate, but when born in another country they could only do their best guess based on what they were told by neighbors or what they found to be the date and place of birth based on any papers found at the place of death. The coroner would then draw up a death certificate that would go to the funeral home and then to the cemetery and that would become the official record. Not all cemeteries keep or have the death certificate, but they should.
I know one recent death -- the family did not care for the husband so they buried her under her maiden name but they could not keep the husband's last name off of the death certicate, the funeral home records, the coroner's records and the cemetery's records. The family just would not put his name on the headstone -- and this was 1990. Anyone looking for this woman would not know how to find her unless one knew that her real records contained her married name but she was not buried under that name. A headstone can say anything, but the coroner's or medical examiner's death certificate should be accurate -- or as accurate as possible.
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Wanted to pick up some of your other points. I have found that occupations almost never match. My grandfather came over here and said he was a locksmith on his papers. My aunt was surprised -- he never was a locksmith.
I index those ship's records and they are really inaccurate, both as to who took the information and the index instructions themselves. I've checked families and people have one profession and in the next census they have another and so on, so I don't usually count on their accuracy. But, for whatever reason, he might have felt he had a better chance of getting in or maybe he was a locksmith for some moment in time in Europe -- and we never heard a word about it. Further, of all my grandfather's professions, he worked for a time on a bridge -- and he was not an Engineer either.
I mentioned Canada because in looking up the James O'Neil's I found many, if not most, emigrated through Canada. So, if James was born here, went back and returned, he might have come back in through Canada -- having U.S. citizenship that would have been no problem, if I remember correctly. He would be going from England to a dominion of England and then to his place of birth.
I will call Calvary about Mary Ann. Probably Tuesday. By the way, do your other records indicate that Mary Ann was NOT 81 years old or some other contradictory information? Might be a clue why her death certificate cannot be located.
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I have the certificate 7289. James O'Neil was buried at Calvary Cemetery on 24 April 1905. Undertaker: G G Montrose of 149 No 3 Street (or could be North 3 Street).
As far as immigration, occupations and censuses, etc my James was only 6 when he arrived so no occupation there but my family as a whole seem to have been pretty consistent. I've only had 3 addresses in NYC to worry about and they appear in the censuses and on nearly all the city directories - boarding house keepers for the females and liquor/tea dealers for the males. James arrived directly from Cork to NYC with no Canada connection apart from his son's later reported schooling there (sometime before 1890).
Believe me I've tried EVERYTHING regarding Mary Ann's certificate. Have checked all possibilities from 1916 and a few years either side - all dates (including a Jan 16 thinking it was mis-transcribed), variants of names (first and last), no name only date, etc. Steve Morse's system allows you to search day by day and no luck. Have tried all 5 boroughs, NY State, NJ State (thinking she might have been out of the city even though I doubt that completely). Plus she died 13 June and was buried 16 June (9.30AM) so exactly how far away could this have been to allow for transportation and arrangements to take place in 2 days??? Oddly enough, given that I don't have her death certificate the age that Calvary gave as 81 was her correct age - she was baptised 22 May 1835 so no information indicating she was NOT 81. I have tried Calvary in the past to see if they hold copies (which they should), transport of cadavers, etc - they sent me back to NYMCA - bless them. As if I hadn't already been there!!!
Anyhow her 2 sisters' death certificates are both complete as far as parents, names, etc but the ages don't match the baptismal details - Catherine's age was given as 72 in 1917 when she was 76 and Annie (Honora)'s was give as 83 when she should have been 74. Both have the same undertaker - William J. Reilly of 104 E12th Street. Could Mary Ann have had the same undertaker which would be extremely convenient given that their address was 106 E12th Street - right next door!!!
PS as regards the plot with 19 people. The plot was purchased by Joanna Goode April 7 1869 for her husband George Goode who died in the January of 1869. Joanna was a Beechinor by birth and the Beechinors were a large family who appear to be a connecting family in my research. Hannah's father Norman Ames had married Mary Beechinor making him a brother-in-law to George Goode and another daughter Catherine, married a William Dickers and after his death a Patrick Carroll and it was at Catherine (Carroll's) house that Angela died in 1902. So I'm reasonably confident that these names would feature in an interment list or headstone(s). Goode, Beechinor, O'Neil and Carroll. Doubt William Dickers would feature as he was buried 29 Oct 1865 before the plot was purchased.
Hopefully I've covered most of your points.
Thanks - Michael.
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Sorry for the delay. I have not forgotten about your request. I have been dealing with a personal matter here. I will get to finding out more about Mary Ann soon, and will not forget yours.
Barb.
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Hi Barb,
Cheers for the reply - no need to apologise and don't let anything as trivial as this get in the way of personal matters. There's never been any rush - after all it's been like this for nearly 100 years.
Michael.
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I wrote to a friend who goes down to the NYC archives on a regular basis and has found people for me before. Let's see what he comes up with.
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Hi Barb,
Cheers for this - all's I can say for now is the best of luck to your friend - I'll certainly keep my fingers crossed. You might want to let him know what I've already tried to save him going over old ground. A lot of this was done back in late 2009 so I might have missed something out but this is as brief an overview as I can put together now.
The following have already been checked as possibilities for age, approximate period or transcribing errors:
13 Jan age 75 Manhattan #1652 - was definitely Jan and low certificate numbers come at the beginning of year
22 June age 70 Manhattan #18923 - wrong parents
30 June age 78 Brooklyn #13651 - wrong parents
The chap I used to correspond with on the Random Acts site before it stopped checked the alphabetical indexes at the NY Public Library and obviously these are the same as the Italian Gen Groups give or take any mis-transcriptions which we've obviously used. He did say that the death certificates at NYCMA are ordered chronologically, but only roughly, as they are received in the Health Department, from the ME's, coroners or MD's, so that there is a range of several weeks within any given section of the certs. He checked there too and I've tried the same approach using Steve Morse's system which allowed me to check EVERY certificate issued between 13 June and 16 June 1916 and if I remember correctly there seemed to be an absence of surnames beginning with the letter O for that period which I thought might be significant or merely a coincidence. Anyhow this link is useful for the chronological approach.
http://stevenmorse.org/vital/nydeath.html
So in short I reckoned I'd covered all the 5 boroughs of NYC. A lady at the NY State archives checked this out there and no joy and I thought I'd try NJ State as well with no luck either. Like I said earlier, given the 3 day period between death and a 9.30 am funeral I wasn't sure where to try next or how far out from NYC to go.
Convinced the error must lie at NYCMA - either mis-filed or lost and with no hope of making any headway there, I went back to Calvary given that in 2001 they supplied me with an interment list for the family plot of 2 graves - father, mother and 6 children. Since receiving this list I've applied for and received all of the death certificates bar one - Mary's! It's when I've cross-referenced the info from Calvary's list to the certificates that I've realised that Calvary's information MUST have come from the certificates themselves (whether this information is factually correct or not regarding age, etc) because it matches. So where did Calvary get the information for Mary - the certificate?
Mary A. O'Neil, June 16, 1916, age 81
Section 4, Range 15, Plot D, Grave 3
It was for this reason that I went back to Calvary - do they have any information extra to what they supplied - e.g. a certificate number attached to the burial details that I could go back to NYMCA with? They sent me back to NYMCA which is a sort of neat but pointless circle - haha. If Calvary don't have certificate numbers then so be it but I just wished they'd said that so I could close that route.
My only other thoughts on this now are why was there an absence of surnames beginning with the letter O for the period 13 June and 16 June 1916 when searching chronologically and would the fact that the probate process was complicated have any bearing? She died in the June but the probate wasn't completed until late October - surly that would be irrelevant as the certificate would have been needed for burial?
So Barb, you and your friend are my last hope and if there's no joy then I will certainly put this one down as I've tried but can't do any more. Good luck.
Sorry about the long reply but I'd hate for you to go over old ground.
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I told my friend that the death index was going to be useless, yet he came up with this, same as you did.
O'Neil
Mary
78 y
Jun
30
1916 #
13651
Kings
O'Neill
Mary
70 y
Jun
22
1916
18923
Manhattan
He said there's an error. He also thought NJ too, but knowing that you tried NJ already I knew that it was not possible she died in NJ. Anyway, she lived on 12th Street in NYC.
I have found the cemeteries may or may not still have a death certificate -- and when they do, they will give out information or not. Some will tell me anything -- others act like it's a secret. This is over 75 years old, so there's no restriction on my asking -- relative or not -- because it's public record now, if they have it. If they have the death certificate, they have the number and the state of issuance. I also deal with another cemetery, and they told me that sometimes they do not have the death certs. any longer, but in my case they did. Hit or miss.
Will be in touch. I can call Calvary; can't go there this week as we are having a lot of rain.
Probate would not, to my knowledge, will never hold up a death certificate. You need one to start probate, be the executor or have one appointed. Was she wealthy? Probate comes in when there is a will (and extensive assets) and the courts must see that the assets are distributed according to the will by an executor who must report back to the court at least every 6 months. If no will, no probate. In any case, no one can be buried without a death certificate as that would be very problematic -- placing bodies in graves with no paper work as to who they really are.
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Called Calvary, but might try again and see if I get someone else. Was told that they do not have death certificates, but have "death cards" only of recent burials, not early 1900s.
She also suggested Connecticut and Pennsylvania -- but we are getting far afield for an 81 year old woman, unless she died visiting relatives.
Did you try 518-474-3075? That's New York State for the non-NYC death records.
Calvary gave me these two sites:
http://www.ct.gov/dph/site/default.asp
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/death_certificates/14122
I'm sure "proofs" are no longer required as to need, status and relationship. At some point all these records become public records and it's not really a certified copy that you are looking for.
I may try the 518 number for you tomorrow -- let me know if this a road already taken.
My friend is going down to NYC archives and he has found children that I could not find, even without knowing a date of birth, age, cemetery -- nothing -- and he found them for me. Here's hoping.
barb
P.S. friend asks if O'Neil is married or maiden name? Did she have or had used another last name? I assume she was an O'Neil. He's also going to try coroner's reports in the absence of a death certificate.
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Pennsylvania death indexes for that era are online. More info here - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,582973.0.html
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Did find that in the 1910 census a Mary O'Neill was living in Brooklyn. Born in 1835 -- age 75 at the time. Brooklyn is Kings County -- one of the 5 boroughs that make up NYC. Widowed; living alone. But ....
I'm having trouble with that site; it's slow today. Doubtful she moved very far. And, yes, there is an E. 12th Street in Brooklyn or Kings county too -- as well has Manhattan or New York county - also one of the boroughs.
On second thought, there are many Mary O'Neil's in NY during the 1910 census -- some with familial information, place of birth, etc. It occurs to me that we should try and find where she was in 1910. I found one that lived in NY and died in NJ at her daughter's (I think), but then she was born in NY. Another matches, but upstate in Onondoga county. Not knowing parental names, when she came over, if she had children and a name or name of a child, I cannot trace her history in NY. You might want to give that a try. In the meantime, my friend will try at the archives where he has inside help.
This is what I came up with:
NYS had their own census in "5" years, except 1892 -- so, 1892, 1905, 1915.
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=22&recordType=Census
Federal census: this might help track her history in the U.S. Once you find her, try and locate her in the 1910 census. Not all of the censuses took down parental names, but you might have other information that matches her and from there you can get to her in either the NY 1905 or the federal 1910 census. I tried, but there were just too many and no way for me to know which Mary O'Neil is your ancestor because I don't know if she had a daughter "Helen" or any child name, if any. These are free -- for the most part. I managed to examine several censuses. Sorry this is so long. I'm placing my faith in my friend's efforts.
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AMary~%20%2Bsurname%3AO'Neil~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1835-1835~%20%2Bresidence_place%3A%22New%20York%22~%20%2Bdeath_year%3A1916-1916~
Or try your own search with what you know. The site has been very slow or times out today.
https://familysearch.org/search
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Sorry, no luck. My friend just called and said he looked in all 5 boroughs that comprise New York City and there's no record of her death here. He thinks she died somewhere else, maybe within New York.
I will try the 518 number tomorrow and see what goes there.
As I said, earlier, I did find a Mary O'Neill whose residence was New York but appeared to have died while with her daughter in New Jersey. Now I don't recall her place of birth but, for some reason, I discounted her as being the one. Sorry we could not find her here.
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Regarding a death in New York state, I was reminded of one of my experiences. I requested a death certificate from the state with a rather rough estimate of the death date and, months later, heard back that nothing was found. Some time after that, I found this man's obituary, which indicated that he did die in New York state during the time frame I suspected. I requested a look-up in the death index, as described here - http://www.unyg.com/blog/index.php/2008/03/new-york-state-vital-records-microfiche-indexes-update/
Lo and behold, the kind librarian did find him in the death index. I have yet to spend the money on ordering the certificate, but at least this seems to verify that my information is correct and either someone did a poor job looking for him or his certificate isn't where it should have been.
So, that might be another angle to try.
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Hi folks and wow - thanks for ALL your help.
I'll try to answer all your replies and I apologise if I miss something.
Mary was single - she never married. She bought 106 E12th Street Manhattan on 12 March 1913 and lived there until her death but prior to that she lived at 113 E12th Street from 1870. The 113 E12th Street address was the address her nephew gives on his wedding banns in Liverpool in 1907 - he was my GGrandfather - hence my family's O'Neil origins over here. She lived with a sister Honora (aka Annie but baptised Ellen) all that time and in 1883 the other sister Catherine moved in with them after their mother's death. The main family home was 84 Madison Street but the terms of the mother's will meant it was sold, necessitating Catherine's move. All 3 sisters remained unmarried and childless all their lives. So luckily for me I've only ever had 3 addresses to contend with and I have her on EVERY national and state census, city directories, etc. They were boarding house keepers with Mary as the main party and the other 2 sisters as domestics or assistants (listed variously as such). In addition I have many newspaper adverts and the odd article reference for Mary and always it is E12th Street. So Manhattan it definitely is.
She was baptised 23 May 1835 at the Church Of The Immaculate Conception, Clonakilty, Cork Ireland and with her mother and 6 brothers arrived in NYC 13 September 1852 on board the City of New York - her father and 2 sisters had preceded her in 1850 and 1851 respectively. I have all baptismal certificates and shipping manifests. Her parents were James O'Neil (died 1865) and Catherine Walsh (died 1883). Both parents are listed on her 2 sisters' death certificates.
I'm genuinely of the opinion that the death occurred in NYC. I have lots of family correspondence which mentions various members from Akron Ohio visiting the "three maiden aunts" in NYC but none that recalls any visits made by the aunts to Akron and yet they mention visits made to Akron by other family members - my GGrandfather being one for example - not definitive I know. The only lead I have that might not indicate NYC is there is an 1886 reference to a friend who appears to have lived Ravenswood Long Island - I'm not sure if this is covered by NYC? Anyhow as I said - I've done as much as I can at NYMCA and have tried NY State and NJ State - the latter 2 checked their records for nothing given that it was only a 3 day window.
As for her death, I have her will, her obituaries and her burial details. She died 13 June 1916 and was buried 16 June making her 81 when she died which matches Calvary's details. Her probate was admitted to the Surrogate's Court in September and was finalised in October. A brother Michael was executor and my 8-year-old Grandfather and his sister were named as both beneficiaries and next of kin in Liverpool which was part of the reason for the complicated probate process - documents needed to be sent to the UK and vice versa. The will runs to well over 100 pages by the way and included affidavits and various attorneys/investigators. I won't complicate things here with the details but there's a genealogical goldmine of information. There's no mention of her death occurring whilst visiting relatives indeed it says she died at her late residence. Apparently when the other 2 sisters passed away in 1917 and 1919 they too left money for my Grandfather and his sister.
The terms of Mary's will clearly talk about what must have been substantial amounts of money - at a rough estimate around $300,000 and that's not today's value. As well as the E12th Street property I do know that they had property on 1st Ave and W75th St. So obviously very astute ladies.
So as you can probably guess - I have a ton of information and yet no death certificate - most annoying!
Thanks again - Michael.
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Regarding a death in New York state, I was reminded of one of my experiences. I requested a death certificate from the state with a rather rough estimate of the death date and, months later, heard back that nothing was found. Some time after that, I found this man's obituary, which indicated that he did die in New York state during the time frame I suspected. I requested a look-up in the death index, as described here - http://www.unyg.com/blog/index.php/2008/03/new-york-state-vital-records-microfiche-indexes-update/
Lo and behold, the kind librarian did find him in the death index. I have yet to spend the money on ordering the certificate, but at least this seems to verify that my information is correct and either someone did a poor job looking for him or his certificate isn't where it should have been.
So, that might be another angle to try.
I tried the site but did not understand it. They say they have on line look up but nowhere could I find where one can do on line lookups -- then they say it's on microfiche so that precludes on line lookups -- and the one link to the library is broken. Confusing.
Do you look it up or do you put in a request? By county? Would he have had to write to each county, assuming it was NYS (we do know it was Manhattan). I could not navigate the site.
I may try the 518 number, however that is NYS without NYC included and he knows she was in New York County -- Manhattan. It's a puzzle why no one can find this death certificate. Maybe my best bet is to really just go to Calvary and ask them to look her up, though we know where she is buried. The last person would not look up anything for me.
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Michael: I will go to Calvary next week and pretend I don't know her burial site, ask for a look up and then ask them what else they have -- like death cert #. I cannot believe they buried bodies with no death cert or even a death cert. #. I have another to have them look up anyway so I can try both at the same time.
barb
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Regarding the unyg.com post - if you scroll down, the e-mail for the library is right on the blog post. An e-mail can be sent the library with a look-up request with the available information. At any rate, it sounds like New York City is the more likely location, so this may be besides the point.
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Thanks folks.
As regards the NY State link - it is/was an email request but the date is showing as 2008 - maybe it doesn't work any more but I tried back then - this was the reply I got.
14 August 2008
Hi,
I searched the NYS death index for 1916, there are 3 Mary O'NEILs listed - in Buffalo, Troy and Belfast. None are Mary Ann, or Mary A and none of the deaths occurred in June of 1916.
It seems that for whatever reason there is no death certificate. Do you know the funeral home? If it is still in existent they may have some info to help, and if you were really lucky they may have a copy of a death certificate.
Holly Sammons, Librarian
Local History/Genealogy
Onondaga County Public Library
447 So. Salina St.
Syracuse, NY 13202
315-435-1900
http://www.onlib.org/website/LH/lh.htm
I also did NJ State in 2010 with a cheeky request which they did look into for me.
06 June 2010
Dear Michael O’Neil,
You have contacted the New Jersey State Archives.
We usually do not provide Mail Reference Service for New Jersey State Death Records from ca. 1916.
We made a one time exception to this policy for you.
We searched NJ State Death Records for 1916 on microfilm.
There was no death record for any Mary O’Neil/O’Neill/O’Niel that died June 1916.
Sincerely,
Bette M. Epstein,
NJ State Archives
Thanks an awful lot for all this by the way - if there's no luck then I'll seriously have to accept that no matter how determined or how much info I have, that the death certificate is just lost!!!
Michael.
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Regarding the unyg.com post - if you scroll down, the e-mail for the library is right on the blog post. An e-mail can be sent the library with a look-up request with the available information. At any rate, it sounds like New York City is the more likely location, so this may be besides the point.
Thanks, it coud be useful for another time so I wanted to understand it. I thought they had an on line lookup. This link appears broken: http://www.onlib.org/website/LH/lh.htm
And I thought that was a blog post. Thank you.
It seems that my best shot is to go down to Calvary and hope to get someone who is helpful. Not always the case with Calvary.
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Have not forgotten about your request. But my friend did. He got back to me the other day. No luck on Mary Ann O'Neil or Mary O'Neil and he checked all of June of that year. He insists she died outside the 5 boroughs here that comprise NYC because there just was no death certificate. I have not had a chance to go back to Calvary -- now that it stopped raining it is 95 degrees F here every single day. At some point, I will go to the office and see if I can find someone who will really look up what they have. But not every cemetery keeps the death certificate -- that much I do know to be true. Why that is, I don't know. Seems they need some proof of who is going into the ground. Feel free to give me a nudge. Barb.
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Hi Barb,
Many thanks for this and pass on my thanks to your friend. I didn't hold much hope at the NYCMA because someone on the defunct Random Acts site checked there quite a few years back and he always seemed very thorough plus I've used Steve Morse's site that allows you to search chronologically and had no joy myself.
As you know I have toyed with the idea that she died outside the 5 boroughs and gone as far as checking NY State and NJ but nothing at either of these two so if the event did occur elsewhere than how far out checking do you go given the following?
She died 13 June 1916 and was buried 16 June 1916 with a 9.30AM funeral. Surely even today that would take some feat of organising to sort out the arrangements, documentation, transportation, etc and to have all that prepared for an early morning funeral within 2 days and buried on the 3rd day?
Anyhow given that I know her burial details (supplied by Calvary) I thought I'd check whether Calvary hold ANY MORE info that might give me a certificate number or at least a State of issue so I looked at other options including what's called burial permits and transit permits which I reckon is what you might be referring to as 'proof of who's going into the ground'? This was the subject of my letter that I wrote to which they replied to and sent me back to NYCMA and that I referred to earlier in the post. They did say that they don't hold death certificates so maybe no point asking about the death certificates. However to quote a researcher on the JewishGen site and something that might be worth asking about:
"So burial permits and transmit permits should be kept by each cemetery, though they may be stored in various forms. One cemetery may just keep them filed alphabetically or by date; others may glue them onto a ledger in order to keep them well organized and findable, etc. There must be some variation in all of this between the many cemeteries that keep such records. I know of no time that both permits were not required. Even during the flu epidemic of 1918, I believe both were needed".
So in the following first instance surely NYC should hold copies of burial permits if it's a legal document? I've tried to find out where to enquire and if they are required to hold them still but again no joy (again from the JewsishGen site):
"A burial permit and a transit permit are two different things. The former is a legal document issued by the City; the latter is a document issued by the organization or society that owns the full burial plot. Now speaking at least for burials/cemeteries in New York City (boroughs, etc.), both are needed for burial. When this was first deemed necessary, I can't say, though it was so at least within the first decade of the twentieth century. I can't say at present whether a cemetery is required to keep both burial and transit permits forever or for a certain period of time. Someone is looking into it for me, and hopefully I will have an answer for you at some point.
A transmit permit is issued by the city, which is gotten by the funeral home, and accompanies the body when it's brought to the cemetery, usually by the funeral director, but sometimes by the hearse driver. A burial permit usually contains just the name of the society, the name of the deceased, their individual grave location and the signature of the society officer in charge of burials for its members. Some of these burial permits might also list the names of the officers".
Lastly I've tried the funeral home/undertaker route (again from JewishGen):
"Now you will say that most societies (I've used funeral home/undertaker for these) that own society plots in the NYC metro area are no longer extant. Legally, their paperwork, after becoming defunct, should be sent to the NY State Liquidation Bureau, though sometimes a society becomes defunct and simply walk away from the society and the grounds, and don't close the business up, so to speak, and don't send their papers to the Bureau. Usually, before a society goes defunct, deeds are given to their members who are entitled to them. Then they're supposed to go to the cemetery to record the deed. When someone dies, the cemetery should have then a recorded deed in their possession, and the family of the deceased will hopefully have their copy of the deed
to bring with them to the funeral".
So I thought given that all the family are buried in 2 plots which were initially purchased in 1865 (including her 2 sisters who died after her in 1917 and 1919) then a deed still existed when Mary died in 1916. And given also that her 2 sisters had the same undertaker - a William J. Reilly of 104 E12th Street then she might have had the same undertaker also. One would assume that this society is now extant and that possibly the records for them are possibly held by NY State Liquidation Bureau only I can't find anything out about NY State Liquidation Bureau!
So that's it - what more can I try - other than every state in the Union within a 2-3 day distance to allow for arrangements??? And as you mentioned proof then surely either the cemetery or
Anyhow I'll leave it up to you to play this one as you feel on the ground so to speak when you get time weather permitting. I've been away for the weekend over here to make the most of our good weather which is pretty hot at the moment compared to our normally damp norm.
Cheers once again (sorry for the long reply) - Michael.
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No problem Michael. There's a lot of information that is helpful.
1. I am going to ask my more knowledgeable friend about the Liquidation Bureau. Just from the sound of it, it must have changed it's name over time. If so, my friend, Jim, might also know what this agency is and what it is called now.
2. I know there has to be a record, but encountered this even in Washington, D.C. cemeteries when researching. They told me the "might have a death cert." and, of course, they did. Why they are not required to keep them, I will have to try and research this and ask my friend, Jim.
3. It's cooling off, so I will still try and give the office at Calvary a try -- with the information you have provided about burial permits and transit permits because this I did not know. Jim might also know more about this, so I will check with him.
Don't forget to give me a nudge after awhile (below) -- Jim sometimes has too many and forgets but sometimes he gets right on it. He does this alot -- some kind of historian. But, since I'm not asking him to go out again -- I will do the Calvary visit -- he might be able to provide some clues on this Liquidation Bureau and on how long a cemetery keeps a death cert. It really is unbelievable to have a burial and no certificate -- no matter how much time has passed. Besides, Calvary is on microfilm so it's not like there's some tremendous file to keep on O'Neil family plot(s).
I take these on one at a time so it's not a bother; right now you are the only one on my open items for the UK.
One final thought; it occurs to me that even with Jim going down her name could have been entirely wrong. She could have been listed as Oneil or Oneill. It's quite a difference in an on line search to use the apostrophe or not. Though Jim could catch that, I'm not sure that the last name is misrecorded causing her record to be misfiled or "missing."
bcarpenter@nyc.rr.com (give me 2 weeks on this).
If you don't hear, be sure and contact me. Seriously. Like Jim, I tend to get off on tangents, even when I have only one thing outstanding -- other than my own research so I won't be bothered by a reminder.
Regards,
barbara
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Also wondering if the paperwork wound up as Neil or Neill. That would be significant.
And I saw something I missed in your previous posts. Yes, Ravenswood, Long Island is NYC. Queens County (1 of the 5 boroughs of NYC) always listed themselves by neighborhood, and still does. Ravenswood was a part of Long Island City and encompassed Long Island City (the neighborhood), Ravenswood, Astoria, Hell's Gate, Sunnyside, Hallet's Cove, Newtown and any number of ever evolving names.
So, we are still looking in NYC because it's just a neighborhood name for Queens County, with Long Island City being the postal name, and was at least in use in 1870, if not before, and those neighborhoods are incorporated into Long Island City, including Ravenwood being one of them. By the way, though Calvary is near me (about 8 blocks) that "neighborhood" concept called Ravenswood is fairly close to here. It's now absorbed by Astoria (Long Island City), though some buildings are still named after the old Ravenswood name.
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First update:
Cemeteries are not required to keep the death certificate -- have not found out where that goes. What they must have is a burial permit that records that they can (and do) bury the person on that date and they must see the deed. That might not give death certificate # but this is something I need to take up with Calvary. This, according to Jim, my friend.
The Liquidation Beaureau handles businesses, mostly insurance companies, that have gone out of business and there are still people with insurance that has been paid for and must be honored. These are insurance companies that wind up in receivership. I have to read your post again, but I am at a loss to explain why the geneaolgy site gives the Liquidation Bureau one set of responsibilities when it clearly states that they handle defunct insurance companies on the site. Another thing to ponder.
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Hi Barb,
Wow so much info - hope I don't miss anything with my yet again long reply.
I'll start with saying that I honestly think Calvary will not hold a death certificate. In my written dealings with them they've always stated that even when my correspondence was not asking about them so I don't reckon it's even worth asking the question.
O'Neil or not O'Neil - haha! - you can't believe how many name variants I've tried - there's probably a mathematical proof that proves I haven't missed any!!! That's why Steve Morse's site for searching the death indexes is an absolute gem - it allows you to search chronologically. This meant I didn't need a first name or surname - I could just search every death during a set period which I've done for ALL deaths in January (in case it was misfiled as Jan instead of Jun), all deaths in June and all deaths in July (same as Jan). All I had to do was look at anyone who died aged 81 and see if the name could possibly have been misfiled somehow from Mary Ann O'Neill. There were obviously quite a few Mary's but nothing close as far as surname.
However just for accuracy's sake she was baptised 23 May 1835 (Clonakilty, Ireland) and her name was written as Neil. All her siblings bar one had this spelling with the youngest being written as Neill - I suspect this was because the father had emigrated to NYC in the July of 1850 and the youngest son was baptised in the December meaning the father was not present at the baptism so maybe he couldn't ensure the spelling? I do know that the shipping manifests are all spelt in different ways and it's the same for documents I have prior to 1860-ish as well as later directories, census, etc - I suppose it was down to who was writing it at the time. They had adopted the O' prefix by 1857 - why I don't know for sure. Some people have suggested that there was a gaelicisation amongst the immigrants in the USA but that doesn't explain why family members who stayed in Ireland had also adopted the pre-fix by the mid 1850s and who now use O'Neill - 2 Ls! Anyhow I digress - O'Neil with one L we are but variants abound.
Mary Ann though seemed always to use the middle name or initial.
I included the Ravenswood reference only as that is the only mention of another place in Mary's files I have away from the immediate family addresses of Madison Street and East 12th Street - as I said it appears she had a friend there but that was dated 1886 so sometime earlier. As you say though this would be covered by Queens County which is one of the 5 boroughs.
I too had found the Liquidation Bureau - it just seemed wrong. Somehow I was expecting some sort of official department that just dealt with extant funeral homes or undertakers records - I never thought about insurance companies and I wouldn't know where to start. I did have some luck in Akron Ohio a while back when researching one of Mary's brothers who died in 1918. Amazingly the undertakers were still in business so emailed them just out of curiosity to see what they might have given that I had the death and cemetery details and quite kindly they emailed me a pdf of what they had. It was a detailed receipt of embalming fluid costs, coffin size and materials, coffin suit, etc - a bit morbid in a way but I did ask didn't I?
I wondered if you and your friend Jim had any thoughts about another location outside of NYC, NY State or NJ State. I was thinking more about the logistics and how that would affect how far to check. I've done Ohio which is where two of her brothers were living in case she was on a visit but no joy there.
Lastly and I'm sure it won't have any bearing on things but when I first contacted Calvary back in 2002 and they supplied me with the interment list there was a line Care $943.00. I contacted them again (thinking I owed them this amount for the list!) and they said this was past due grave care from 1962 with present rate of $108 per annum (or a perpetual care fee upon application). So it appears that grave care had been paid for all this time. I suspect this ceased upon the death of Mary Ann's sister-in-law Patience in Akron who died 1960 aged 93 - there's no other explanation my side for who paid this money.
Having all the info, documents, etc that I have, it's just annoying that I can't close this one. My gut feeling is that there's been a mix-up in NYC - either it was misfiled, wrong name, lost or simply never recorded correctly at the time. As far as I know it's the attending physician that issues a death certificate to the family, keeps a copy and another is sent to the authorities in this case NYMCA.
So that's it for now Barb - there's no rush for this - I don't think Mary Ann's going anywhere!