RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Nottinghamshire => Topic started by: Annechan on Saturday 16 February 13 23:20 GMT (UK)
-
My great grandfather Wrighthall Spencer was the son of a Francis Spencer. Was the father Francis Spencer jun??
Wrighthall was born in Balbriggan, north of Dublin, in 1866, mother Mary Hardding / Hardy. The same couple had another son Robert in 1870, who remained in Balbriggan.
In the 1861 census Francis sen is living in Quarry Yard, Sutton, with wife Caroline and six children including Francis jun. I cannot find the family in 1871, except perhaps for a son William then aged 31. The mother may have died in 1862, or this could be the death of a daughter born in 1860.
Several FWKs moved from Sutton to Balbriggan around 1870, including Arthur (born 1832), a brother of Francis sen. Did Francis sen and/or jun move there as well?
One of Francis sen’s other brothers, christened in 1824, was called Wright Hall, which encouraged my supposition; I have found nothing about him and assume he died at a young age.
There is also a Francis Spencer born in England (possibly Shardlow registration district 1843 or 1846) who married Ellen Matilda Appleyard in Balbriggan in 1865; they had lots of children, and were still there in 1911. It seems possible but unlikely that this is the same Francis as Wrighthall and Robert’s father.
I would be so grateful for any information about either Francis; I have tried both English and Irish records, but without success, not even a convincing death for either. There is a record of probable Mary in Balbriggan in 1901 Census, and a Dublin cemetery entry for 1906 death, but the burial appears to relate to a different family.
-
Mother Caroline Spencer died in Sutton in Ashfield Notts in 1862 aged 41 and was buried 16.5.1862
-
Baptism Sutton in Ashfield
1-2-1824 Wright Hall Spencer son of Samuel and Mary father a FWK.
Burial's Sutton in Ashfield
18-8-1829 Wright Spencer abode Sutton aged 5.
7-7-1867 Francis Spencer abode Forest St aged 72.
-
Marriage Sutton in Ashfield
11-4-1841 Francis Spencer and Caroline Cassoday
-
Baptism Sutton in A
17-12-1820 Francis son of Samuel and Mary Spencer, father a FWK, there are 9 children baptised for these parents at Sutton.
This marriage fits well
Sutton in A
7-10-1816 Samuel Spencer and Mary Hall.
-
Thank you so much, CaroleW and Larkspur, for all that extra information. I have used Freereg, Freebmd and censuses to try to piece together a picture of the families, but pre-1865 deaths are difficult, and that marriage seems to be missing from Freebmd.
The Francis Spencer who died in 1867 seems likely to be the Francis aged 68 in the 1861 census, born Stoney Haughton, Derbys and living in Sutton. So did Francis sen (and his children, including Francis jun) move to Balbriggan with his brother Arthur?
I would be so grateful for any sightings of the family after 1862.
-
Samuel Spencer b-1796 d-8-29-1860 and wife Mary Hall, had 11 kids
William b-1817-1822,George b- 1818-1822, Francis Sr b-1820, George b-1822, Wright Hall b-1824 to 1829, Dorothy b-1826-1833, Nathan b-1828-1831, Simeon b-1830-1834, Arthur b-1833, William b-1837 and Eliza b-1844. All were born in Sutton in Ash field, Nottinghamshire, England.
Francis Sr b- 1820 was born in Sutton in Ash field, Nottinghamshire, England and married on April 11,1841 to Caroline Cassoday born in Sutton in Ash field, Nottinghamshire, England. also married in Sutton in Ash field, Nottinghamshire, England . They had 6 kids
Thomas b-1839, William b- 1842, Sarah Ann b-1844, Francis Jr b- 1845, Mary b-1849 and Caroline b-1861
Francis Jr, b- 1845 was born in Sutton in Ash field, Nottinghamshire, England, married on Oct 23, 1865 to Ellen Matilda Appleyard, my (2nd) Great Grandmother who was born in Dublin, Ireland. They had 12 kids
Sarah Anne b-1866, Francis Henry b-1868 - 1868, unknown Spencer b- 1869-1869, Caroline Mary b-1871 -1948, Hariet Eliza b- 1873-1874, Gertrude b-1874-1874, Eliza b-1875- died before 1911, Henrietta b- 1877, William b-1880, Eliza Letitia (my Great Grandmother) b- 1883-1928, Robert Herbert b-1885 and finally (Female) Hamilton Spencer b-1879 died before 1911.
I am not sure where the link for Wright Hall Spencer born Sept 6, 1866 to Mary Hardding and Francis Spencer fits in. But since Francis Sr had a brother with the name Wright Hall, I thought with this information you may find what you are looking for since you asked for any info on either Francis Spencer's.
-
Thank you, lynnsellers, for all that info. It seems we are distantly related, both descended from Francis b. 1820.
I attach my version of the families of Samuel Spencer and Mary Hall and of Francis Spencer (1820) and Caroline Cassoday, adding some of your info to what I already knew. Perhaps you could let me know if you find any mistakes. I have the birth and marriage certificates of Francis b1846, and could scan you copies if you wanted.
As you say, the unusual name makes it highly likely that Wrighthall born 1866 is part of this family. I first assumed that Francis b1846 in Sutton was Wrighthall’s father, but a cold week going round Dublin Record Offices and Libraries convinced me that it was Francis b1846 who married Ellen Matilda Appleyard. My latest supposition is that Francis b 1820 was Wrighthall’s father. The Valuation office and baptism records showed there were two Francis/Frank Spencers in Balbriggan from the 1870s to the end of the century. One, I believe was Francis b1846 living in Skerries St/Hampton St,; the other was living in Drogheda St, which Wrighhall and Robert’s parents gave as their address when the 2 boys were baptised together in 1876.
It seems as though Francis b1820 may have moved to Balbriggan after the death of his first wife. His widowed brothers Arthur and William also came to Balbriggan and both appear to have married Irish girls and had some children in Ireland before moving back to England.
I didn’t notice any Hardys / Harddings in Balbriggan records, so perhaps Francis and Mary were living together before going to Ireland. I haven’t found a marriage in either Ireland or England, so have no idea of Mary’s age or father’s name. If she was a few years younger than Francis, her age would fit with having children in 1866 and 1870 but (as far as I know) no more. Wrighthall’s brother Robert emigrated to Los Angeles Co in 1919, with his Irish wife and son, and the 1920 American census says Robert’s mother and father were both English.
The only likely death I have found for Francis b1820 is Dec Q 1900, aged 81, in Leicester, so I may try buying this certificate, unless you have found a better match.
Does all this sound like a Catherine Cookson novel?
-
yes it looks like we are related. Thank you so much for the attachments you sent, and the answer is yes I would like any documents you would be willing to share. I see you have been to Dublin. Do you live in that area or just vacation? I am Leaving tomorrow for 6 weeks. I compared what I have to what you sent and I can tell you I got Ellen Matilda Appleyard & Francis Spencer marriage info from familysearch.org. It also has information on her kids. I will be able to get your messages while I am away. It is posted on Ancestry and that has certificates and pictures ect...
Thanks again
I LOVE Catherine Cookson's Novels !!!!!!!!!
-
Many thanks, lynnsellers, for the info in your attachment – I have added new bits to my family details. Sorry about the delay in replying, we’ve been on holiday.
I will attach the birth and marriage certificates for Francis Spencer b 1846, which I bought thinking he was my great great grandfather, rather than (I think) my great grandfather’s half-brother.
One thing I am doubtful about is the death of Wright Hall [b1825]. I can’t find him in the 1841 census, so the 1829 burial in Sutton given by Larkspur (burial at Sutton on 18-8-1829 of Wright Spencer abode Sutton aged 5) seems to me to be more likely than the event you gave - 1848, Basford registration district.
Also I think that the “Unknown Spencer, daughter of Francis Spencer Jr and Ellen Matilda Appleyard born on 29 Mar 1869 in Balbriggan” is probably Ellen Spencer who married Henry Hoey (25, writing clerk, of Railway Station House, father Henry Hoey, station master) at St George's, Balbriggan on 29 May 1888; Ellen is 19, living at Skerries St, with father Francis Spencer. [I saw this entry in the marriage register]
Henry and Ellen are living in Dungannon, Tyrone in 1901 census; in Lusk, Dublin in 1911 census.
John Hall (?christened 1766 Arnold) married Dorothy; as well as Mary they also had a daughter Ann Hall, christened 26 Nov 1791 in Annesley. This Ann is a ggg grandmother on my maternal grandmother’s side, whilst Mary Hall is a ggg grandmother on my maternal grandfather’s side – quite a neat coincidence.
No, we live in the West Midlands, England, not Ireland. We spent a week in Dublin visiting the Representative Church Body Library (for Church of Ireland parish records), Valuation Office, GRO Ireland, various libraries, and a day at Balbriggan, in the hope of sorting out who Wrighthall Spencer’s father was, but just ended up with a different unverified possibility and a dreadful cold! (Did a little bit of tourism too). I spent the first few years of my life in Sutton in Ashfield, then lived in a village next to Annesley Woodhouse, till my parents moved away from Nottinghamshire; I still have some relatives in the Sutton area.
Did Eliza Letitia’s family stay in Michigan? Interesting that Sarah Anne and George also went to America. I remember my mother talking about the problems caused by the Black and Tans in Balbriggan, which I couldn’t understand as Wrighthall was living in Nottinghamshire by then, but presumably she had been told about Robert, his brother, emigrating to California to get away from the anti-English feeling.
So, I now have lots of information about the families which I think are part of my family tree, but still nothing to prove that Francis Spencer, baptised in Sutton in 1820, is the father of my great grandfather Wrighthall Spencer. I need the marriage of Francis Spencer to Mary Hardy/Harding, probably Sutton, Nottinghamshire or Ireland, between 1862 and 1866 (or 1876 when the 2 children were baptised), but can’t find one. It would be great to find deaths for Francis and Mary too.
-
Baptism
Sutton in Ashfield
1-2-1824 Wright Hall son of Samuel and Mary Spencer father a FWK.
The only marriages for a Francis Spencer in S in A are the one to Caroline Cassoday and
22-8-1821 To Catherine Milward.
with Children baptised there too
28-6-1837 Ann
20-3-1834 Simeon buried 24-3-1837 aged 3 years
12-11-1827 William
27-7-1829 Elizabeth
Baptism Arnold
31-8-1766 John son of John and Mary Hall.
Buried,notes say children of Francis and Catherine Spencer
3-12-1825 Sarah aged 1
10-12-1825 Mary Ann aged 4 years
Marriage Attenborough
22-7-1889 Wrightall Spencer and Elizabeth Turner.
Sorry if I have repeated myself anywhere :)
-
Thanks, larkspur for that info.
I had looked at the Francis Spencer/Catherine Milward family, though I didn’t know about Sarah and Mary Ann. William appears to have married Elizabeth Wright in 1851; they have a 10 year old son called Wright in the 1881 census, but he is known as Alexander or Alexander Wright at other times, and I don’t think there is a direct connection with my family.
I wonder whether Wright Hall Spencer, 1824-1829, was named after 2 of his grandparents? The only baptism I have found for Samuel Spencer is Samuel born 1795, christened 1812 at Wirksworth, Derbys, mother Hannah, father not given (FamilySearch); this fits with Hopton given as Samuel’s birthplace in the 1851 census. I don’t have a marriage for the parents of Mary and Ann Hall – could Dorothy’s maiden name have been Wright?
Whatever the reason for Wright Hall’s name, it seems to fit with my guess that Wrighthall born 1866 in Ireland was the son of Francis Spencer born 1820 Sutton, who married/lived with Mary Hardy/Harding after his 1st wife Caroline died in 1862. But I don’t see how I can prove this without a marriage! Francis appears to have stayed in Balbriggan until about 1899, when his name is crossed out of the rate books. I haven’t found a death, so assume he returned to England, but cannot find him in the 1901 census. Perhaps I will just have to give up.
Incidentally, I did learn during my stay in Ireland that Elizabeth Turner, Wrightall’s future wife, spent some years in Balbriggan with her father, so they probably met there before marrying in Attenborough.
Thanks again for your help.
-
Hi Annechan
I remember your Frank Spencer(s) from your thread on the Dublin Board ages ago. At the time I found something but forgot to post it. It is a very LONG SHOT (well a 50:50 really) but since he still hasn't turned up I thought I'd post and see what you think.
www. RootsIreland.ie has 3 Burial records for the name Spencer in Balbriggan COI.
1 is for Robert d 1954 and another for a Francis Spencer - Address Balbriggan - Aged 76 - Died 5 Aug 1895, giving him a birth date of 1819 (I had got the record at the time having spare credit and no use for it myself) BUT... when you try cross check against the Civil Index however it has this
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FT8W-BM2
Frank Spencer - Jul - Sep 1895 - Balrothery, Ireland - Aged 7.
Clearly someone has it wrong here. The name, place and date are all consistent but RootsIreland have him aged 76 and the LDS have him aged 7. Could this be a rare instance where RootsIreland have it right and the LDS have made a mistake ? Do you have a someone in your research who could be this 7 year old Francis/Frank ? I had a look and I don't see one born in 1888 as per the LDS record, just a FRANCE SARA b. 1888 Belfast.
Could be a total wild goose chase, but I thought I'd throw it out there and see what you think of it.
-
Yes, I had wondered about that death. I got excited when we visited Balbriggan Library at the end of our week in Ireland and were shown a transcript that included:
Francis Spencer; age at death 76; buried at Balrothery on 5th August 1895; address at death Balbriggan.
When I later compared this with Civil Registration records I decided that the age must have been mis-transcribed. However, I emailed the Vicar of Balbriggan to ask about the whereabouts of registers of baptisms after 1887, marriages in the 1860s and burials. He managed to get find the registers of baptisms at Balbriggan and burials at Balrothery, and promised to deposit these at the Church Representative Body Library (where I had checked other records) for safe-keeping. (Couldn’t find any marriages, unfortunately). He also confirmed that the register entry did give the age at death as 76, so maybe there is an error in the Civil Registration indexes.
Two points against this idea that our Francis died aged 76 in 1895:
1. The Balbriggan transcripts also included this baptism:
Lily Francis Spencer, born 28 Oct 1888, baptised 29 October 1888, parents Joseph and Margret Spencer of Courtlough. However, I have just found her and her parents in Kinsealy in the 1901 census, so it can’t be her and must now discount this idea.
2, Francis Spencer wasn’t crossed out of the Rate Revision books (at the Valuation Office) until 1899, although there were alterations between 1895 and 1899. This could just have been inefficient administration though.
On balance, it looks as though it may be worth one of us getting that death certificate. Do you want to buy a copy, or shall I?
-
Got a copy of the 1895 death certificate in the post today, and Francis Spencer's age is given as 77, not 7 as on the GRO index. Francis was a hosier, and the death was notified by his widow Mary. This seems likely to be the Francis baptised in Sutton in Ashfield in 1820. It fits my theory that he moved to Balbriggan after the death of his 1st wife Caroline in 1862, then had 2 more children with Mary Hardy / Harding, but difficult to actually prove without finding a marriage.
I attach copy of the death certificate, also photo of the house where Francis b1820 lived (small house on corner of Drogheda St/Brick Lane).
-
This is the house where Francis Spencer b1846 lived - 2nd from the right hand end of this terrace in Hampton St (sometimes described as Skerries St).
-
Whilst undertaking your research have you found any connection to a William Spencer son of Henry Spencer who married Catherine Darcy in Balbriggan 9th November 1872.