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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: Julie in Ohio on Friday 15 February 13 17:49 GMT (UK)
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I've been quite amazed by the information that has poured out of this group in response to the initial question. I'm stuck myself on family questions related to these place names. Here is the information as I received it, with some minor clarifications and added dates. Any suggestions for further work that could be done long-distance would be greatly appreciated.
California native Emma Kerr (1874-1917)'s notes about her father Alexander Kerr (1840-1882)'s family. My comments are in [ ]:
[on an envelope]
"Three bro. Kerr came to Newton Limavady from Scotland + bo't whole township ["Tamlaght?"--from Mary Fitch]. set up linen mills and corn mills. Grandfather, William Kerr and John Kerr were the only children of one of these."
"Wm. Kerr married Elizabeth Irvine (my grandmother) one of nine children. Wm, Alexander, Samuel, Ellen, Peggy Ann, Susannah, Jane {married Ritchie in America/ Michigan near Kalamazoo/had a dau. Jane} and one John (?) who went to England. Peggy Ann married Jos. Allcorn. Susannah married Abraham [Allcorn/Alcorn?] { Eliza/John/James}."
"John Kerr married Eliza Torrens. 7 children-Mary, Margaret, Emily, 2 Sarahs, John and twins who died in infancy. John has 1 surviving son Wm."
"Wm Kerr + Elizabeth Irvine, my grandparents, married in Ireland--children, Oliver, Eliza, John, Alexander. Grandmother died of consumption when Alex was about 2 yrs. old."
"Oliver had 5 children
Albert, Elmer (killed), John, Mary, Ella.
Mary-teacher
Ella-milliner
Albert + John farmers + stockraisers in Nebraska"
More of Emma's notes:
[on a piece of scrap paper--comments enclosed in [] are mine, those in parentheses () and {} are as in original]
"Grandfather's mother's name was Miller. She died when Grandfather was very young. She had a brother named Billy Miller, who lived about 4 mi. from Londonderry. 4 children {he had a son Wm., one of his dau. (Peggy) married Robt. Gant}"
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"A cousin of Grandfather's, Sam Hazlet kept shoe store on Chestnut St. (?),Philadelphia. He had three sons."
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"Some of the Kerrs came to New York."
Additional information: The source of this information was Alexander's sister Eliza Kerr Fitch (b. Co. Londonderry 1834, d. Barry, Pike Co., IL 1916) and her schoolteacher daughter Mary, who visited her California cousin Emma in 1906. Emma and Mary's grandmother Betty Irvine Kerr had died in Ireland ca. 1842. Their grandfather William arrived in the Barry area by 1870 and died in 1882. The three sons emigrated in 1853 -- John and Alexander with a cousin? Leslie Irvine, all listed as laborers, on the ship Superior, and Oliver following on the Fanny. Oliver was listed as a clerk, with last residence Drumachose.
William and Betty's daughter Eliza had emigrated to Barry, Pike County, Illinois, USA via New York with her uncle and aunt John and Eliza Torrens Kerr and their two young children ca 1849. Eliza Torrens' brother John and sister Sarah Jane followed via Phila in 1851, leaving an unmarried brother William to farm in Carrowclare, Moyse, Londonderry. (When William Torrens died in 1882, his brother John returned to settle the estate. The Torrens' ancestral burial grounds were at the Presbyterian Church in Ballykelly.)
I could not find Leslie Irvine or Sarah Jane Torrens after their arrival in Philadelphia, but John and Oliver Kerr and John Torrens all settled in the Barry area. Alexander Kerr was in California by 1860. As far as I know all of these families were Presbyterian, and in the U.S. were farmers and teachers.
Thank you in advance for any insights,
Julie
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Welcome to Rootschat. What a lot of wonderful detail to start tracing your family but I think most of it will be either in ireland before civil registration or in the U.S.?
In the last few years quite a bit of Irish information has been put online (much of it free).
One bit you mentioned- leaving an unmarried brother William to farm in Carrowclare, Moyse, Londonderry. (When William Torrens died in 1882, his brother John returned to settle the estate.
William Torrens actually died 1883 and his residence is Carryclare, Myroe- you can read the wording of his Will here- quite a few relatives mentioned:
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
"The Will of William Torrens late of Carryclare County Londonderry Farmer who died 15 September 1883 at same place was proved at Londonderry by the Reverend Robert Kennedy of Myroe Presbyterian Minister and Alexander Moore of Carryclare Myroe Farmer both in said County the Executors."
Using the same search page you can look for Kerrs, etc.
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"A cousin of Grandfather's, Sam Hazlet kept shoe store on Chestnut St. (?),Philadelphia. He had three sons."
Samuel Haslet (c1803 Ireland-1867 Philadelphia), bootmaker:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VKZG-7Q7
More detail here- Samuel Hazlett born "Newtenladavy, Derry, Ireland"
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J6YB-G6X
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Thank you, Agadowey, for the helpful links. Regarding the will of William Torrens, I have some legal questions as well as a genealogical one.
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx
"The Will of William Torrens late of Carryclare County Londonderry Farmer who died 15 September 1883 at same place was proved at Londonderry by the Reverend Robert Kennedy of Myroe Presbyterian Minister and Alexander Moore of Carryclare Myroe Farmer both in said County the Executors."
1) The cash amounts devised to various legatees amount to considerably more than the stated assets. These bequests were to be paid within three years of his death.
A) Would the valuation of assets include the farm itself? Would the farm (left to a nephew in the U.S.) have to be sold in order to pay the itemized bequests?
B) Torrens leaves the use of a house or room and garden to a Betty Miller for use during her lifetime. How would that be accomplished given the possible need to sell the farm? Would what seem to be the equivalent of dower rights be protected in a sale?
(I believe the farm was in fact sold, as Torrens' nephew Robert Martin Torrens was able to buy a good farm in Illinois with his inheritance. Sadly, the money left to his grandnephew William Hugh Kerr was mismanaged by his father John Kerr until male relatives of the boys' mother took the father to court.)
2) John and William Miller (father and son) and Betty Miller seem to me to be close relatives, although they are not identified as such. Aside from looking for birth (possible for John?), death records, and wills, are there other avenues I should pursue?
Thank you again for your help.
Julie
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Julie, I have a 3x great aunt Susannah Irvine/Irwin who married an Abraham Alcorn, farmer at Drumacarney, near Limavady. I don't know her dob but guess it to be about 1800.
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Griffith's Valuation for Carrowclare (1858) lists William Torrens as tenant under James Ogilby. Not sure when lands in Carrowclare would have come up for sale to tenants but it's likely that William Torrens didn't own the farm outright.
Having said that there's a notation that "John Torrens of Carrowclare, regd. his freehold at Lamavady, 27 Oct.1761" so I'm not sure what went on there.
Irish Landholders (c1876)
"9. William Torrens, address Carrowclare, Newtownlimavady, owned 29 acres."
Did find this post online looking for the same Kerrs but wondering if it could be yours?
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NIR-DERRY/2009-03/1236311460
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More of Emma's notes:
[on a piece of scrap paper--comments enclosed in [] are mine, those in parentheses () and {} are as in original]
"Grandfather's mother's name was Miller. She died when Grandfather was very young. She had a brother named Billy Miller, who lived about 4 mi. from Londonderry. 4 children {he had a son Wm., one of his dau. (Peggy) married Robt. Gant}"
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"A cousin of Grandfather's, Sam Hazlet kept shoe store on Chestnut St. (?),Philadelphia. He had three sons."
I wonder if the 'Gant' mentioned might be 'Galt' or 'Gault'. There are families of that name just out of Limavady around that time and up to the present day.
I think Chestnut Street in Philadelphia may have been a shopping street in the area where many Irish immigrants made their homes when first coming to the US. I have a photograph of an ancestor taken at Miles and Foster in Chestnut Street in the mid 1800s.
Shanreagh
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"A cousin of Grandfather's, Sam Hazlet kept shoe store on Chestnut St. (?),Philadelphia. He had three sons."
Samuel Haslet (c1803 Ireland-1867 Philadelphia), bootmaker:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VKZG-7Q7
More detail here- Samuel Hazlett born "Newtenladavy, Derry, Ireland"
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J6YB-G6X
Thank you for these links. This Samuel Hazlett seems to fit the bill, but I have not yet been able to identify his family in Philadelphia or Newtown Limavady. I believe I can continue working on the Phila end since so many new records have become available online since the last time I tried to approach this question, but I am uncertain how to proceed on the Londonderry end.
A key question for me is how "cousin" might be interpreted, and thus how a Samuel Hazlett born ca. 1803 might be related to Alexander Kerr b. ca. 1840. Alexander's father only had one sibling, John Kerr, and I have accounted for all of his descendants.
Alexander's mother was Betty Irvine, and the list of siblings and spouses I have do not accommodate a Hazlett first cousin in any way I can see. I would be looking for a much older sister of Betty who married a Hazlett. Please see my response to Dairv for further elaboration on this.
Samuel Hazlett and Alexander Kerr's father William were born about the same year and thus generationally could be first cousins, with Alexander a first cousin once removed. This would mean I would be looking for a sister of the three Kerr brothers who came from Scotland to Londonderry, or a another sister of Billy Miller, William's maternal uncle, either of whom could have married a Hazlett and had a son Samuel.
The wildcard in this is the surname of Betty Irvine's mother. She could have been a Hazlett or have had a sister who married a Hazlett.f
Am I construing the relationship implied by "cousin" too narrowly?
Thanks,
Julie
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In Ulster 'cousin' usually mean a first cousin but since the writer of the notes was in the U.S. the term 'cousin' could probably refer to a first cousin or far more distant relative in the same or another generation.
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I wonder if the 'Gant' mentioned might be 'Galt' or 'Gault'. There are families of that name just out of Limavady around that time and up to the present day.
I think Chestnut Street in Philadelphia may have been a shopping street in the area where many Irish immigrants made their homes when first coming to the US. I have a photograph of an ancestor taken at Miles and Foster in Chestnut Street in the mid 1800s.
Shanreagh
Thank you for the surname suggestions. I have gotten nowhere with Gant or Gaunt, but as the handwriting was clear I did not think about other variations. I'm pleased to have more options!
Chestnut Street was a thriving shopping district, which suggests Mr. Hazlett was successful at his trade. He is of interest to me not only because of the specificity of his mention in these notes. I suspect Alexander Kerr may have stayed with the Hazletts for a while before moving on to California, as he later stated he was a native of Pennsylvania (including in his own handwriting on the Great Register of Voters, and in his obituary).
Julie
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In Ulster 'cousin' usually mean a first cousin but since the writer of the notes was in the U.S. the term 'cousin' could probably refer to a first cousin or far more distant relative in the same or another generation.
That does narrow the options for me, knowing what I know about my U. S. relatives. The un-modified term "cousin" would be used for first cousins, or first cousins once removed who were of about the same age. As Samuel Hazlett must have been about the same age as Alexander's parents, in the context of these notes he would have been referred to as Alexander's father's (or mother's) cousin.
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Not sure if I understand what you are saying- or perhaps my previous post was unclear- but my U.S. relatives use the term cousin to refer to any sort of cousin- first, second, third, once removed, etc. It would probably be unwise to assume any degree of relationship without proof.
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Julie, I have a 3x great aunt Susannah Irvine/Irwin who married an Abraham Alcorn, farmer at Drumacarney, near Limavady. I don't know her dob but guess it to be about 1800.
I have a family tree you sent me in 2008 that is tantalizing in its similarities, but we just could not make the information fit at that time. Susannah and Abraham had children Eliza, John and James. I am guessing that Abraham is the first name; the notes only say "Susannah married Abraham" but as that followed "Peggy Ann married Jos. Allcorn" I thought it possible Abraham might be an Allcorn as well. But "Jane married Richie" suggests not all the husbands' first names were known.
William was born about 1803 and their first known child (Oliver) was born in 1832, so a sister of Betty born ca 1800 would be a good fit.
Here are Betty's siblings again. Note that it says she was one of nine children and there seem to be at least ten total.
"Wm. Kerr married Elizabeth Irvine (my grandmother) one of nine children. Wm, Alexander, Samuel, Ellen, Peggy Ann, Susannah, Jane {married Ritchie in America/ Michigan near Kalamazoo/had a dau. Jane} and one John (?) who went to England. Peggy Ann married Jos. Allcorn. Susannah married Abraham [Allcorn/Alcorn?] { Eliza/John/James}."
If you read my previous post about how Samuel Hazlett might be a cousin to Alexander Kerr, you may see that I think the best chance is if I can find a Hazlett-Irvine connection. The other piece of information I have is that Alexander and his brother John seem to have been accompanied by a Leslie Irvine / Irwine (age 18) when they emigrated. All three were listed as laborers. I believe Alexander inflated his age by two years; he also was listed as 18, and John as 19. In the 1841 Londonderry census abstracts I find a possible match for Leslie as child of Samuel and Margaret Irwin. Again, I can't quite fit Leslie into your 2008 tree!
Name: Leslie Irwine
Arrival Date: 13 May 1856
Age: 18 Years
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Port of Departure: Londonderry, Ireland
Ship Name: Superior
Port of Arrival: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Microfilm Roll Number: M425_79
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Not sure if I understand what you are saying- or perhaps my previous post was unclear- but my U.S. relatives use the term cousin to refer to any sort of cousin- first, second, third, once removed, etc. It would probably be unwise to assume any degree of relationship without proof.
I believe I understood you. I have tried to understand the circumstances under which these notes were written, and who might have supplied the information. The handwriting is my grandmother Emma Kerr (1874-1917). Her father Alexander died when she was nine and she was raised by a maternal aunt, and I think she knew little of her father's origins from him. I believe the information came either directly from her aunt Eliza Kerr Fitch or through her schoolteacher daughter Mary Fitch, who visited her in California in 1906. The notes have the appearance of being written on whatever was at hand, so I think they were jotted down during a conversation between my grandmother and her aunt or her cousin. And from everything I know about these women, I believe that they would modify the word "cousin" if anything other than first cousin were meant -- in this context. But as the informant (Eliza or Mary) might have heard the relationship described in the Ulster sense and not known the details, I wanted to have a better understanding of what the word "cousin" meant in Ulster.
Generalizing about the U. S. is tricky, but I can speak from my own experience that when an elderly relative said "cousin" in my childhood they meant a close relative; second cousins were described to me as "almost like family but not." I think in those cases my informants simply did not know the relationship.
And in my own family we have first cousins who are offset generationally enough that my younger siblings are the same ages (and friends with) the children of our two first cousins. We describe these first cousins once removed as "cousins" outside the family, but even the least genealogically minded, when describing the relationships in the context of these notes, would explain that these are the children of our cousins.
My conclusion from what you say and what I understand from the above is that there are fairly limited possibilities for how Samuel Hazlett and Alexander Kerr could be related. But thank you for pushing me on this. I must be interpreting something wrong, as I have been able to make very little headway in spite of such detailed information.
Julie
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I am also doing research on 2 Kerr families and I noticed in a reply a reference to a Samuel Hazlett.
I have a Mary Wlhelmina Hazlett 1854-1949 dau of Rueben A. Hazlett b May 2, 1831 Butler PA and he died in McCurtain, Haskell, OK, USA. His father Rueben Hazlett b 1796 PA and died 1878 Butler, PA he married Mary Duffy b 1795 Butler, PA and died 1886 Winfield, Butler, PA. And this is a family that is in my Kerr search. Any relation to Samuel Hazlett in one of the replies? Fruitytooty
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Griffith's Valuation for Carrowclare (1858) lists William Torrens as tenant under James Ogilby. Not sure when lands in Carrowclare would have come up for sale to tenants but it's likely that William Torrens didn't own the farm outright.
Having said that there's a notation that "John Torrens of Carrowclare, regd. his freehold at Lamavady, 27 Oct.1761" so I'm not sure what went on there.
Irish Landholders (c1876)
"9. William Torrens, address Carrowclare, Newtownlimavady, owned 29 acres."
Thank you for digging these out. Very helpful to see them in the context of just having read the will, which describes disposition of several houses he owns, as well as "real property."
My reading of GV is that in 1858 William Torrens leased 26+ acres land, houses and offices from James Ogilby, owned 2+ acres outright, and in addition leased out three houses to others and owned one unoccupied house. Perhaps Torrens was able to buy Ogilby's property between GV and 1876, thus owning all 29 acres at that time and presumably at the time of his will.
What is new to me is the information about John Torrens of Carrowclare registering his freehold in 1761. That may be the 2+ acres that William Torrens had in 1858, or I suppose Ogilby's ownership could have been temporary during some of the interval, and a Torrens may have been able to buy it back. In any case, it seems John may have been grandfather or father of William Torrens.
In any case, I think this may answer my question about how the bequests could be paid out within three years and still allow Betty Miller the use during her lifetime of the house formerly occupied by William Torrens' aunt, and also the use of the garden. Perhaps the 26+ acres or some fraction of it was sold after William Torrens' death, and the 2+ acres and house sold after Betty White's death.
It strikes me as odd that relationships are spelled out for most of the individuals mentioned in the will, but with a significant omission. William Miller has been caring for Torrens and is left a substantial bequest in addition to wages. John Miller is identified as William's father. But Betty Miller is not identified by relationship to either Torrens or the two Miller men, yet Torrens clearly was ensuring her welfare.
And yes, the RootsWeb post you found was mine. I notice a couple of errors that could be corrected. Of relevance here, a genealogist in Illinois interested in Torrens' nephew and heir, Robert Martin Torrens, wrote to executor Rev. Kennedy and confirmed that Ballykelly Presbyterian was the "ancestral burying ground" of William Torrens's family. I thought that phrasing odd. I suppose she was interested in distinguishing this family from the many Bann Valley ones.
Thank you again,
Julie
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I am also doing research on 2 Kerr families and I noticed in a reply a reference to a Samuel Hazlett.
I have a Mary Wlhelmina Hazlett 1854-1949 dau of Rueben A. Hazlett b May 2, 1831 Butler PA and he died in McCurtain, Haskell, OK, USA. His father Rueben Hazlett b 1796 PA and died 1878 Butler, PA he married Mary Duffy b 1795 Butler, PA and died 1886 Winfield, Butler, PA. And this is a family that is in my Kerr search. Any relation to Samuel Hazlett in one of the replies? Fruitytooty
The Samuel Hazlett I am interested in was born in Newtown Limavady 1803 and died in Philadelphia in 1867, so while he could be related to your Hazletts, the relationship would have to go back to Ireland or perhaps even Scotland. The Kerr line I am following began with three brothers coming from Scotland to Londonderry. One had two sons who married in Londonderry but ended up in Illinois, one in 1849 and the other at least by 1870 but perhaps earlier. I suspect it is just coincidence that we have Kerrs with a Hazlett connection.
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Would you kindly state where in California your Kerrs settled. This could be helpful.
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Would you kindly state where in California your Kerrs settled. This could be helpful.
Yes, of course. Alexander Kerr was the only member of his immediate family to go to California. He met and married Mary Collins there, and they settled in Pajaro, Monterey County, just across the Pajaro River from Watsonville, Santa Cruz County. They had four daughters. As far as I know he was not related to any other Kerrs in California. He arrived in California before 1860, apparently on his own, and died in Pajaro in 1882.
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Thanks. The reason I was asking was that I have some Kinkeads of Ballykelly that married Kerrs and moved to California. James Kinkead marred Mary Kerr on 23 June 1870 and settled in Nevada City. His wife's sister, Sarah Kerr, was with him in the 1900 census.
Do your Kerrs have any connections to Davidson or Rutherford County, Tennessee?
I am not sure if you are aware of this, but one of the ministers of Ballykelly Presbyterian Church was John Haslett (1752-1757). He married a Miss Stirling of Walworth who was believe to have been the daughter of the previous minister, Rev. John Stirling.
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Thanks. The reason I was asking was that I have some Kinkeads of Ballykelly that married Kerrs and moved to California. James Kinkead marred Mary Kerr on 23 June 1870 and settled in Nevada City. His wife's sister, Sarah Kerr, was with him in the 1900 census.
It was worth asking, but I don't see an obvious connection.
Do your Kerrs have any connections to Davidson or Rutherford County, Tennessee?
No. Alexander's relatives settled in Barry, Pike County, Illinois. From there one brother and family moved to Missouri ( basically across the river) and his children went to Nebraska, Canada, and Chicago.
I am not sure if you are aware of this, but one of the ministers of Ballykelly Presbyterian Church was John Haslett (1752-1757). He married a Miss Stirling of Walworth who was believe to have been the daughter of the previous minister, Rev. John Stirling.
I just last night came across this. It was a reminder to me to always be aware of spelling variants. But I am glad you brought it to my attention again. Although Alexander Kerr and his cousin Samuel Hazlett were born in Newtown Limavady (1840/42 and 1803) it seems reasonable to look for connections further back in Ballykelly.
Thank you.
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Hi,
The Rev. John Haslett of Ballykelly was born in an area known as Straw in the Parish of Bovevagh. His first wife died in childbirth and he seems to have lost his faith and emigrated to America where he fought in the American war of independence. See:- http://www.benbradagh.com/page%207.html
I have quite a lot of information on the Hasletts of Bovevagh but I cannot find a connection to your Samuel.
Regards
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Several members of the Kerr family are buried at Aghadowey Churchyard, County Londonderry. Perhaps they connect?
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Several members of the Kerr family are buried at Aghadowey Churchyard, County Londonderry. Perhaps they connect?
No connection to the Kerrs on this thread.