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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Galway => Topic started by: fruitytooty on Wednesday 13 February 13 20:59 GMT (UK)
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Dr Albert Wakefield was an emigrant from England to Ireland and had an only son, Robert, who had a son Robert all born on the family estate on the road between Aughrim and Ballinasloe, Galway county, Connaught, Ireland. I do not know if I should be posting under Connaught, Ireland!
Robert Wakefield (Robert, Andrew) had three children, that I am aware of:
Robert, Matthew, and Andrew. All born on the family estate.
Robert (Robert,Andrew)had 4 sons:
David b1735 who married Mary Jane or Elizabeth Wade-said to be the dau of Jerimiah Wade. He escaped to America, had a role in the below referenced plot. Hid by his wife in a hogshead of clothing on a ship heading to America. Found 3 days later.
Robert beheaded for complicity in a plot against the Catholic church.
Gilbert arrested with his brother Robert, and imprisoned for life.
Samuel escaped to Scotland in a rowboat when detected in plot against the Catholic Government.
Matthew(Robert,Andrew) married Bridget Banks, emigrated to America around 1783. Had 8 children that I will not list now.
Andrew(Robert, Andrew) married Margaret Reddick, resided on the family estate listed above and he probably died there. They had 3 children.
Are there any records for David and Mary Jane or Elizabeth Wade Wakefield and I would love information on the records concerning persecution in their plot against the Catholic Church.
Thomas Wakefield(David,Robert,Robert,Alexander) was born in 1757 on the family estate. He married Elizabeth Morton-and there is a lot of conflict on their records! I believe I did a post for Antrim County, Ireland concerning Elizabeth Morton as a dau of John and Jane Peden Morton. Many of her descendants for centuries now have listed her as the dau of John Morton,a signer of the Declaration of Independence, a Finnish family history stemming from New Sweden in America-1650's-and it is not true! But they are bound and determined to have a famous ancestor! It is said that Thomas and Elizabeth Morton Wakefield were married in Galway, Ireland in 1782-any records? Are there any records concerning Thomas Wakefield's birth or immigration?
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Hi fruitytooty:
I received your pm regarding the Wakefields; thank you for contacting me.
I am replying on your thread, in order to keep information in one spot (rather than having some information by pm, and other information on threads).
According to my ancestor Jane Wakefield, and her children, Jane was born in Tuam, Ireland in 1822. I was very surprised to find out that Jane, her parents and siblings were mentioned in the Wakefield Memorial book. There is some incorrect information in the book regarding my ancestors. Although if I remember correctly, it is mostly factual but has incorrect surname spellings and a couple of incorrect dates. Jane and her husband and children left the states (settling in Ontario, Canada) prior to c1852. If I remember correctly, her father, Edward Wakefield, born c1795, Ireland also settled in Ontario, Canada with Jane and her family.
I don't know very much about Irish records, unfortunately. However, I might suggest if you haven't already done so to try internet searches for the Wakefields. I've spent a huge amount of time searching the internet for my English and an Irish ancestors and actually have found information! What I have done is to use variations of their names, such as: Jane Wakefield, Wakefield Jane, Mrs. Wakefield, Mr. Wakefield, J Wakefield, etc. I also include places and dates of birth, death and residence. I also search for them, typing their occupations, and street names.
I am very interested in finding out more about the Wakefields and tonight will look through your posting on this thread to see if I can help.
Again, thank you for contacting me. :)
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I have not gotten any information on this family and apparently the book Wakefield Memorial by Homer Wakefield is one of the main resources for many branches of Wakefields. This book is easily assessed at openlibrary.org for free. In my research-that includes the other Wakefields in this branch that came to America supposingly to the same area- I have run across various misinformation from the book but it is a good start. One of the sons of Robert Wakefield son of Robert Wakefield was Matthew Wakefield-brother to my David Wakefield. The Wakefield Memorial states under second generation page 216 "Matthew Wakefield born __married__Bridget Banks, emigrated to America prior to 1783, and settled on the Juanitta river, Penn, and later removed to Nelson county, Ky." From the book "History of that part of the Susquehanna and Juniata Valleys by Franklin Ellis page 595 you will find info for a Matthew Wakefield. "Matthew Wakefield, in 1768, was assessed on one hundred acres. . . . and John Wakefield, his son, one hundred acres and in 1790 . . .He(Matthew) died in 1793 and left two sons, William and George, and a daughter Sarah who married John McVey, the founder of McVeytown, to whom the property came." This information does not correspond with the Matthew Wakefield, brother of David Wakefield who went to the same Juniata Valley. In the Wakefield Memorial page 216 Matthew Wakefield father of John Wakefield who also served in the Rev War and married Elizabeth Alexander and moved to Nelson County, Ky. I believe this the same John mentioned in the Ellis book. But the children of Matthew in the Wakefield Memorial do not match the children of this Matthew Wakefield. I have had a few posts-not just rootchat- and some of the info in the Wakefield Memorial is not matching up. So I am concerned about dates that the Wakefield families came to America-and names of children. The same book by Franklin Ellis page 602 lists the McVey family history and states"John McVey married Sarah, the dau of Matthew Wakefield, who settled below on the river before 1768." If this is the correct Matthew Wakefield, and I can follow the one son John Wakefield's history for this part of PA, coming prior to 1768 is a little earlier than I expected and he does not have a dau Sarah listed in the Wakefield Memorial. And as I stated the Juniata Valley is where the Matthew Wakefield and David Wakefield families are said to of gone in the Wakefield Memorial by Homer Wakefield. And I can find the history for the David Wakefield familes. Do you think it is another Matthew Wakefield or that his info is incorrect in the book? fruitytooty
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The information I posted concerning the Wakefields in Mifflin County, Pa from the book History of that part of the Susquehanna and Juniata Valleys-can be found also in Homer Wakefield's book-The Wakefield Memorial on page 255. However, it must be noted the year the Wakefield book was written and in the preface he explains he compiled info from various families. The Mifflin County Wakefields start with John Wakefield-not Matthew Wakefield as in the book on the area in PA. And I must tell you that the info from page 216 from my branch of Wakefields could very easily be the same family referenced! The state of Penna was being formed and from the 3 initial counties from William Penn-Chester, Lancaster and Bucks-all the rest were formed.Therefore for the history of my Wakefields that include a Matthew Wakefield and his son John Wakefield they also went to the same area of the Juniata Valley-as did David Wakfield and his family-they all went to this area. You can find more history in the area of Lancaster County, Cumberland County, Franklin County. And who knows if the boundaries ran in between all the Wakefield families that settled there. So you tell me how accurate the book written in the 1890's is? No one can find history for the Wakefields in Ireland. And I have researched not just this branch in Penna-to find the history you have to understand the history of Penna. The other mistake in the WAkefield Memorial concerns Elizabeth Morton who married Thomas Wakefield the claim that she is niece of the signer, John Morton. A simple google shows you the real signer of the DEclaration of Independence-he had no siblings. And for those who claim she is the daughter-this has been happening since the Wakefield book came out-even an obit in ancestry from 1899 makes this claim for the dau of Elizabeth and Thomas Wakefield. And the signers dau Elizabeth died UNMARRIED. Fruitytooty
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I found an interesting bit of history regarding the David Wakefield and Wade families of the Parrish of Aughrim and Kilconnel.
http://places.galwaylibrary.ie/history/chapter4.html
In a bio for Dr. Rev Samuel Wakefield-son of Thomas-son of David-I read that his grandmother, May Jane Wade Wakefield-was converted to Methodism by John Wesley. And in ancestry there is a quote from a letter written by Shelia MacAvoy Block that was published on Rootsweb. It tells of a book titled "The Parish of Aughrim and Kilconnel" by Tadhg MacLochlain and information from page 19 tells of Wesley's visit and tells of the Wakefields. The last sentence of the paragraph that mentions Wakefields says "The last three preachers remembered by the people were Mr Storey, Mr Walsh, and Mr. Wakefield, all natives of the parish."
Also in trying to understand what conflict the Wakefield Brothers could of had with the Catholic rule to be implicated in a plot against rule in the years 1765-1783 I have been reading about the Whiteboys and other secret organizations of that period up to the French and the year 1798-that some participated with the French in a war. A source A History of Ireland in the 187h Century by William Edward Hartpole Lecky-vol 2 addresses the various conflicts for the period.
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In reference to my previous posts regarding confusion on what Church Parish the Wakefields in the article about John Wesley could be I found this:
http://www.irishmethodist.org/about/genealogy.php and it states:
Although Methodists in Ireland have existed since 1740's-the first 70 years Methodists usually had dual membership as both Methodists and also members of the parish church. It was not until 1816 and finally authorized in 1818-Methodists were permitted to hve the sacrements of baptism and Holy Communion in their own preaching houses.
I am not sure but the Wakefield family may of been part of the Catholic parish and possibly the Wakefield family had problems with the Catholic Church because of their connection to the Methodist. Any suggestions on this?fruitytooty
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The 'parish Church' referred to in that article relates to the Established Church, or Church of Ireland.
just wondering about a phrase you mentioned earlier i.e. 'the Catholic rule' - doesn't make much sense to me....
S.
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The 'parish Church' referred to in that article relates to the Established Church, or Church of Ireland.
just wondering about a phrase you mentioned earlier i.e. 'the Catholic rule' - doesn't make much sense to me....
S.
I am trying to make sense out of it myself! The original post is the family tradition handed down and is in most histories I read for the Wakefield family-beginning with the Wakefield Memorial by Homer Wakefield. A previous moderator tried to help and said all the history she saw for Wakefields stem from the same book. I have been to all sites mentioned and I believe you really need to know the religion of the person to find records. Well this is quite a different take-dual memberships in parishs, isn't it? And no one has mentioned it to me. I have seen other posts inquiring about families who say they are Protestant but records are in the Catholic parish records.
I gathered the dual membership probably meant Church of Ireland-mandated Anglician Church-that would be Espicoplian at this time-1750-1783 or from the articles I have read- it is not plain? I have been reading a lot of Irish history trying to understand all the various religious problems and I am trying to understand this plot against Catholic Rule that is behind the punishments I list in my first post. At this point I believe I was trying to figure out what parish the Wakefields belonged to since the Methodist were not permitted until 1818 to have the sacraments of baptism and Holy Communion in their own preaching houses. From the John Wesley article I read the Catholics were not allowed to go into a Protestant Church. And the 1st paragraph "Nevertheless the whole congregation listened to him as he preached in the open" I assumed maybe this was also a Catholic congregation and the Wakefields were part of that congregation and this possibly is what the Wakefield memorial is talking about Catholic rule. Possibly the article is referring to a Catholic Church who did not approve of their conversion. A monastry is also mentioned in the last paragraph of the same article concerning John Wesley. Was their a monastery close by the area John Wesley visited? fruitytooty
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There was no 'Catholic rule' of Ireland in the period you mention so a plot to overthrow it simply doesn't make sense.
Open air preaching was not unusual in Ireland as it meant large crowds who couldn't all be accomodated in a church could listen to the speaker. Probably more common in the country and in places where a church building was only big enough to hold its own congregation.
The Church of Ireland was the Established Church (i.e. State Church) and since people had to pay tithes they were entitled to burial in the churchyard (which is why many of them have large numbers of other religions such as Presbyterians in their graveyards). As other religions were finally allowed to hold their own services and their clergy perform weddings, etc. then they would have been likely to be less contact with the Church of Ireland.
The trouble with information being spread over and over again is often tracing it back to a source. The book you mention "Wakefield Memorial by Homer Wakefield" seems to have been published in 1897 and the Victorians were well-known for embellishing family details in order to link back to a prominent family with the same surname, royalty, etc.
http://archive.org/details/wakefieldmemoria00wake
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There was no 'Catholic rule' of Ireland in the period you mention so a plot to overthrow it simply doesn't make sense.
Please read the post Shane responded to regarding my question concerning Catholic rule and trying to understand it. What religion did the Wakefield family convert to Methodism from? What was their Church parish previous to this conversion? http://www.irishmethodist.org/about/genealogy.php does not say that had to be members of mandated church-Church of Ireland-Anglican.
Open air preaching was not unusual in Ireland as it meant large crowds who couldn't all be accomodated in a church could listen to the speaker. Probably more common in the country and in places where a church building was only big enough to hold its own congregation.
http://places.galwaylibrary.ie/history/chapter4.html 3rd paragraph "he preached at the door of the Rectory s the Roman Catholics present dared not go into a Protestant Church. 2nd paragraph on Wakefield's could also mean the same as the 3rd paragraph.
The Church of Ireland was the Established Church (i.e. State Church) and since people had to pay tithes they were entitled to burial in the churchyard (which is why many of them have large numbers of other religions such as Presbyterians in their graveyards). As other religions were finally allowed to hold their own services and their clergy perform weddings, etc. then they would have been likely to be less contact with the Church of Ireland.
From the book "The Parish of Aughrim and Kilconnell" by Tadhg MacLochlain, page 19, on John Wesley's visit to Galway "The last three preachers remembered by the people were Mr. Storey, Mr. Walsh and Mr. Wakefield, all natives of the parish." Maybe the prior church had problems with the Minister Wakefield. Yes I know I read the history concerning the last minister of Methodist faith that was persecuted in the early 1800's-won his case.
The trouble with information being spread over and over again is often tracing it back to a source. The book you mention "Wakefield Memorial by Homer Wakefield" seems to have been published in 1897 and the Victorians were well-known for embellishing family details in order to link back to a prominent family with the same surname, royalty, etc.
http://archive.org/details/wakefieldmemoria00wake
Yes I have previously disproved the niece relationship of Elizabeth Morton to John Morton, the signer of the Declaration of Independence. However the Wakefield Memorial does state Galway county and where they were born-however it is quite possible that David Wakefield did move to Westmeath County where Athlone is. 1851 census lists Wades and Wakefield-no first name as landowners.And the John Wesley source does say "The descendants of David Wakefield, to the fifth generation at least, identified themselves with the followers of Wesley." This is true in America-ancestors history I do have.
Thanks for all your help and I will be trying to do a post regarding Westmeath County Wakefield's are you saying that no one should research what is in the Wakefield Memorial-and for famous people's is someone beheaded famous-shouldn't someone want to know if this is true?fruitytooty
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I did not say you shouldn't research any material you've found but I would be skeptical about much of the material not only in this volume but in other books published in this period.
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I found some information at a site for John Fleming Wakefield-who is a descendant of the same family I posted on the original post. The site does not get any further for the Wakefields except there is listed a reserch breakthrough. "35,000 soldiers were in the Battle of Boyne. In 1690 Dr Albert Wakefield dressed a wound for King William III. In appreciation granted land to Dr. Albert Wakefield in Aughrim. Leslie Wakefield now lives there." Also at the same site is a picture of the home of Robert Wakefield and it states for the sign in front "Robert Wakefield, Physician to King Born 1670 Aughrim, Galway, Ireland." This doesn't match up with what Sue found for Dr. Albert Wakefield-1690-supposingly granted land-so how did the 1670 reference and Robert Wakefield Physician to the King come about and I wonder if a few generations were confused especially in connection to the implication in a plot against Catholic rule. I tried to do an email at the site however it no longer works.fruitytooty
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I am trying to make sense out of it myself! The original post is the family tradition handed down and is in most histories I read for the Wakefield family-beginning with the Wakefield Memorial by Homer Wakefield. A previous moderator tried to help and said all the history she saw for Wakefields stem from the same book. I have been to all sites mentioned and I believe you really need to know the religion of the person to find records. Well this is quite a different take-dual memberships in parishs, isn't it? And no one has mentioned it to me. I have seen other posts inquiring about families who say they are Protestant but records are in the Catholic parish records.
I gathered the dual membership probably meant Church of Ireland-mandated Anglician Church-that would be Espicoplian at this time-1750-1783 or from the articles I have read- it is not plain? I have been reading a lot of Irish history trying to understand all the various religious problems and I am trying to understand this plot against Catholic Rule that is behind the punishments I list in my first post. At this point I believe I was trying to figure out what parish the Wakefields belonged to since the Methodist were not permitted until 1818 to have the sacraments of baptism and Holy Communion in their own preaching houses. From the John Wesley article I read the Catholics were not allowed to go into a Protestant Church. And the 1st paragraph "Nevertheless the whole congregation listened to him as he preached in the open" I assumed maybe this was also a Catholic congregation and the Wakefields were part of that congregation and this possibly is what the Wakefield memorial is talking about Catholic rule. Possibly the article is referring to a Catholic Church who did not approve of their conversion. A monastry is also mentioned in the last paragraph of the same article concerning John Wesley. Was their a monastery close by the area John Wesley visited? fruitytooty
I can offer very little in addition to agahadowey's comments really and I know very little of the history of the time. However, I have wondered about the veracity of the 'Catholic Rule' episode in the family history.
With regard to Wesley- the Methodist way of preaching - in England and I am sure elsewhere- was 'in the field' - in open spaces. This then captured the attention of workers e.g. agricultural and miners etc and I suppose because ministers of the established church (Church of England - or Ireland in this case) would not be open to their flock being converted to another faith in their own church buildings.
The Roman Catholics would not be allowed to enter any non- Catholic church as you have noted.
As you will know, there are several Wakefield family members searching on the internet. I am sure I have read in one or another that the Wakefields were in Ireland as a result of Oliver Cromwell so they would not be of the Catholic faith. Presumably, they converted to Methodism from CoI but as has already been stated, there were still ties to the established church through tithes and the need for certain ceremonies.
The article from the library re John Wesley mentions the granting of land near Bresk and the nearby monastery.
I would think that this refers to the monastery at Esker referred to here http://places.galwaylibrary.ie/history/chapter10.html.
regards
heywood
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This (http://www.offalyhistory.com/articles/168/1/John-Wesley-in-the-Midlands-1748-1789/Page1.html) is interesting reading - John Wesley's diary - gives you some understanding of his preaching in the Irish Midlands.
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Amazingly I found information from a family that went to Ireland and are descendants of my Wakefields. Yes the homes were in the Wakefield Village. Pictures and info are at-do a google search-Nebeker Family History and unfortunately it includes the Wakefield Memorial-they believe is correct. Included at this site are also pictures of the Urraghry Church of Ireland where the Wakefield Family probably attended. There are also pictures of the Wade home 3/4 mile NW of Aughrim. fruitytooty
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Wow, there is certainly quite a lot of Wakefield and religious information to digest, isn't there?
(Note: my mum is descended from the Wakefields.) When I started researching my ancestors, I was told my father's grandfather was born in England. My mum remembers hearing my father's father say that the family was French, settled in England only long enough to anglicise the surname (a few years), then the family settled in Ontario, Canada. It turns out that my father's greatgrandfather was born in England and that the family had lived in Essex, England for at least 116 years. I still cannot find a tie to France. While I listen to family tales, and accept that they may be based upon facts, I can't help but remember the stumbling block I had when I was trying to research my father's grandfather.
My ancestor, Edward Wakefield, was born c1794 in Ireland and according to records, was a shoemaker. He sailed to America in 1839 with his wife and seven(?) children. My ancestor was Jane Wakefield, one of Edward's daughters. I have a copy of an obituary about Jane Wakefield Ovens and it states "...Mrs. Ovens spent her childhood in Tuam, in the south of Ireland, where she was born..." Jane was 106 years old when she passed away and the obituary contains quite a bit of information. Of course, it too could be incorrect, relying upon memories and relatives' information.
My mum remembers hearing Tuam mentioned when she was growing up, and never heard anything about Aughrim. I wonder how Edward Wakefield could have afforded the voyage for his large family - did someone pay his voyage? Did the family have money and if so, why would he have an occupation such as shoemaker?
fruitytooty, thank you for continuing to search for leads and a huge thank you to those who have contributed to the thread. I guess if we easily found answers to our questions about our ancestors, it wouldn't mean so much as when it takes a lot of time and effort (hope that makes sense). I am now going to take a look at the sites recently mentioned.
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Aughrim, Galway to Tuam is probably only about 20 miles.
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Hi aghadowey:
Thank you for the information. While I did reference a map in the past, seeing your post made me think about why a Wakefield would have left his family and settle in Tuam. If Edward Wakefield was a part of the Wakefield family whom we are referencing, his occupation may have been the reason to relocate to Tuam. Perhaps it was easier to carry on with his trade if he moved to a larger town (Tuam). Or, perhaps his wife, Frances Granger, was from the Tuam area. Thank you for pointing out the distance, as I had never thought of why he (if he was part of the family) might leave the Aughrim area.
fruitytooty, I don't think it has been mentioned on this thread...do you know the occupations of your Wakefield ancestors? Perhaps we might eventually find similarities between my Wakefields and yours, which might eventually lead to Irish clues.
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Yes Lisa there is a lot of Wakefield religious stuff to sort through! However I was curious since I read the info for Edward and I believe Mayflower194something posted about this family and she stems from Edward's sister Sarah. If I read the right info for your Edward and in your posts you say Edward left for America-but was his father DAvid Wakefield born on the family estate on the road to Ballinasloe and Aughrim in Galway county Connaught Province-I believe-Ireland and he did not leave? I did find some Thomas Wakefields in Griffiths Valuation for Ireland. Do you think Edward's father and possibly other siblings-maybe there were some not listed- stayed in Ireland? The only David Wakefield I found was for Townland: Castlestrange Parish: Fuerty and County: Roscommon in Giffiths Valuation at the Ireland roots site. I did find others at Galway library I just do not have notes here in front of me. But at Irelandroots I did find about 11 Wakefields for the county Galway. As I asked Mayflower with so many people being born on the Wakefield family estate it would need a village and there is one! I assume the people of the village were all related but you could be correct about Taum-and why would all the children stay where it is said they were born? Gee that would be a lot of families!good luck in your research and thanks for responding please keep me in mind I wish I could help more!fruitytooty
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When I first started researching, I talked to relatives and no one ever mentioned anything other than Jane Wakefield and Tuam. Jane's parents weren't even mentioned. I have no idea who would have said that Edward's father was David. Perhaps it was one of Jane's siblings who believed this to be true.
Thank you for looking for David Wakefield. I will continue to follow this thread. Perhaps in the future you or others might provide a clue with which I can help research your Wakefields.
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The 'parish Church' referred to in that article relates to the Established Church, or Church of Ireland.
just wondering about a phrase you mentioned earlier i.e. 'the Catholic rule' - doesn't make much sense to me....
S.
I wasn't going to address this anymore and continue my research into Irish history however I want to concerning some groups that were formed and the period the Wakefield Brothers got into trouble with "Catholic rule" David Wakefield would of "escaped" sometime around 1775-1783. While reading about Irish history I have ran across the Whiteboys, Orangemen, and Peep-O-Boys. From a easy source wikipedia-Early years for the Orangemen that was founded in 1796-1780's sectarian(this being Protestant and Catholic sectors) tension had been building until a boiling point in County Armagh-competition between them to rent patches of land near markets there. Much offence had lately been taken because of the Catholics in the general increase in wealth had raised the price of land by bidding high when it became vacant. Here the number of Protestants and Catholics was almost equal in what was then Ireland's most populous county. I am sure it spilled over into other counties and especially amongst Agarian communities. The first major outbreak of the Whiteboys began in 1761. The wealth of the different classes might have something to do with references of high rent as a reason for leaving Ireland. But the beginnings of these groups that did clash has an early history. I have no clue on how to try and research the Wakefield Brother's you think they may of been part of one of these groups? And the Orangemen are compared with the Klu Klux Clan in America so it is something that existed and most Americans do not want that type of history even if it were true. Comments?Suggestions on where to look for Wakefield's in 1750-1783? I have gone to the normal places. At this site google Nebeker Family History-and you will see pictures and locations for the Wakefields from a visit to Ireland in the photo album or library at the site. Thanks for your input fruitytooty
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And the Orangemen are compared with the Klu Klux Clan in America so it is something that existed and most Americans do not want that type of history even if it were true. Comments?
I have never heard of Orangemen being compared to the Klu Klax Klan and many people would find that remark highly offensive. Whilst it is true that religious and ploitical tension in Ireland goes back many years and for various causes you seem to be taking information from various sources and trying to make it fit your family story.
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And the Orangemen are compared with the Klu Klux Clan in America so it is something that existed and most Americans do not want that type of history even if it were true. Comments?
I have never heard of Orangemen being compared to the Klu Klax Klan and many people would find that remark highly offensive. Whilst it is true that religious and ploitical tension in Ireland goes back many years and for various causes you seem to be taking information from various sources and trying to make it fit your family story.
Please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/orange_order and scroll down to Comparisons with Klu Klux Clan
And your remark that I "seem to be taking information from various sources and trying to make it fit your family story." Apparently the plot that the Wakefield Brothers were implicated in against Catholic rule has a basis somewhere. You have pointed this out to me-no Catholic rule. The only organizations and frictions I can find at this time in Irish history-1770-1783 are the beginnings of the Orangemen and Whiteboys. I believe I did send a pm because I do find it offensive but there are many with this type of history in their families but it doesn't mean not to look because it is possible. So other than make no guesses and there wasn't any Catholic rule what do you think the Wakefield brothers might of been involved with against Catholics in the years I mentioned? And I have other sites that do refer me to both of these organizations that are trying to make sense out of the trouble the Wakefields got into and looking at various aspects of Irish history. I have also found Wakefield Quakers in the Province of Connaught-from books-One is by Jane Marion Richardson Wakefield. This is even probable prior to converting to Methodism. These are areas to research. I believe I thought there was a Wakefield Village-and there is. William of Orange did grant land to the Wakefields-goggle search Nebeker Family History and you will find that there is information but no one seems to be able to find info on the Wakefields in the 1700. There are currently Wakefields that is listed and pictures of Ireland are on the family site. The person currently residing there does not know how the land descends or the family history. But Wakefields are currently there. Filling in the info for the 1700's just might entail looking at alot of history that may not apply to my Wakefields and I do not know too many that would not agree that genealogy is like a detective searching for clues-well all I apparently have to go on is the Methodist John Wesley article and what is here in America and what was found in Ireland when on a visit. Thanks for your replies and if I offended you then I am sorry-sectarian violence isn't just religious it also includes racial sectarian sects. I am sorry. fruitytooty
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The fact that 'Catholic rule' doesn't make sense has been brought up by several people in regard to your posts.
Whilst wikipedia is a valuable resource by its very nature it cannot always be considered reliable. Wikipedia itself has expressed concerns about the KKK reference to the Orange Order-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order
Comparisons with the Ku Klux Klan
An editor has expressed a concern that this article lends undue weight to certain ideas, incidents, controversies or matters relative to the article subject as a whole. Please help to create a more balanced presentation. Discuss and resolve this issue before removing this message. (December 2011)
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Yes that is in the article in Wikipedia. I believe a better way to look at this is they may have been part of one of the groups and this is what I said and I also stated that people would be offended and many do not want this to be a part of their family history. As you can see it stirs up feelings and people do not want to address them. Methodist, Presbyterians, Quakers were part of a group of Dissenters . The Treaty of Limmerick 1691 lowered their status and rights. Added to the low status fammine also occurred and high rents. In the years 1775-1779 the American Revolution was taking place. The hositilites in America meant the House of Commons drafted Irish Troops and this need in America denuded the troops in Ireland so a volunteer movement began. In 1779-1782 Irish Nationalism was high-spurred on by the American Revolution. The native Irish threw in with the those of their colonial fellowcountrymen-those who had been granted land in Ireland by the British previously and colonized in Ireland (Wakefields from England)-and a united Ireland confronted Britian. This could easily be considered treason and a reason for being beheaded. This period between 1775 and 1782 is one of the most important facts in Irish history and led to the charter of Irish legislative independence. It is during this period that the Wakefield Brothers were implicated in a plot against the government and they could of been part of the group of volunteers who fought against the British. Their nephews continued the fight in the Rev Army after they emigrated to America. For whatever reason the records seem to be lost for the Wakefield family in Ireland. So all we have left is what is written here in America. Methodism and religious tolerance is seen by the many Wakefields who became ministers in Ireland and in America. David Wakefields son Jerimiah being one of the first in the area they settled in after leaving Ireland.
I realize you are Irish and the American Wakefields really would like to understand the why concerning the Wakefield brothers. Without records you can only look to history to understand the actions or what drove them to escape by hiding and going to America. Thank you and I believe a break is in order.fruitytooty
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The church probably attended by the Wakefield family was the Urraghry Church of Ireland. Dr. Albert Wakefield may not be the emigrant from England to Ireland. It is possibly John Wakefield who settled around Ulster and his son Dr. Albert Wakefield in the Battle of Boyne in 1690 dressed a wound for King William III and in appreciation granted land to Dr. Albert Wakefield. In 1692 the home of Dr Albert Wakefield was 2 miles east of Aughrim, Galway, Ireland and part of Wakefield Village. However there is a sign in front of a house-that I thought was Alberts-at a family site for John Fleming Wakefield that shows the house and the sign in front reads "Robert Wakefield, Physician to King, born 1670, Aughrim, Galway, Ireland. Since there are no records just remenants of the old homes and village it is difficult to figure this out. But the name of the church is here-I assume the civil church-dual membership-and the location of the home. There are Wakefields currently living near by.fruitytooty
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I would like to add some information for the family of Dr. Albert Wakefield. In Homer Wakefield's Wakefield Memorial pages 213-215. He lists the info for the early history of the Wakefield Family from England to Ireland. "The first official record of a Wakefield in Ireland" I found in the same reference as listed on the page "The Irish Landed Gentry When Cromwell came to Ireland" by John O'Hart page 372-"10. The "Forty Nine" Officers Inrolment of the Adjudications in favour of the 1649 Officers-Preserved in the Office of the chief Remembrancer of the Exchequer, Dublin-see Records of Ireland, Marked "1821-1825" pp. 610-637." A listing follows for the men-on page 409-John Wakefield. From what I have read this land given was in the Ulster Plantation. From "Irish Pedigrees" by John O'Hart page 690 "10. Families in Ireland At The Close of the 17th Century" below this heading it reads "According to the MS Vols F.3, 23, F. 3, 27 and F. 4. 18, in Trinity College, Dublin, the families mentioned in this Section were among the principal families in Ireland at the close of the 17th century. The reader will find in each of those three Vols., much information in relation to the GENEALOGIES of the Anglo-Irish families who settled in Ireland since the English invasion, which are not given in this Work." On page 697Wakefield is listed. Does anyone know how to locate these genealogies?
I am assuming that John Wakefield, military chieftain, the father of Dr. Albert Wakefield was granted land-family history says and I believe the Wakefield Memorial also, this was in Ulster. Dr. Albert Wakefield may or may not of been born there-possibilty England and located to Ireland with his father. Dr. Albert Wakefield, "was a surgeon on the staff of William of Orange, when on his Irish invasion, and at the Battle of the Boyne, July 1, 1690, he dressed the wound of William with such skill, and so won his confidence and good will, that on the completion of the conquest at the battle of Aughrim, July 12, 1691, by William's request, an estate, comprising the site of the battleground, was granted him, and is now the property of the male line of descendants. Mr. David B. Pilch, of Jersey City, N.J., a descendant, has in his possession a piece of William's waistcoat that was saved by the surgeon and handed down to posterity as a memento of the historic occassion." Wakefield Memorial page 214
I assume that Dr. Albert Wakefield was with his father in Ulster-and served in the Army getting land and settling there from Ulster and his father John. Any info on how to obtain the genealogies mentioned above would be appreciated. Fruitytooty
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These look like the books you mention:
http://archive.org/details/irishpedigreesor02inohar -
http://archive.org/details/irishlandedgentr00ohar
I had a quick glance at the pages and can only see the names listed without any other information. You could checkto see if there is anything else.
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These look like the books you mention:
http://archive.org/details/irishpedigreesor02inohar -
http://archive.org/details/irishlandedgentr00ohar
I had a quick glance at the pages and can only see the names listed without any other information. You could checkto see if there is anything else.
Yes these are the books I mention and have copies of the info for the Wakefield from them. It is an index for the Irish Pedigrees and the genealogies are not in the book as you say you could only see the names listed without any other informaton. However it tells you where you may find the genealogies. My previous post asked if anyone knew how to access what is listed on page 690 of the book Irish Pedigrees by John O'Hart, that says "According to the MS Vols. F.3 23, F. 3 27, and F. 4 18, in Trinty college, Dublin, Ireland The families mentioned in this section were among the principal families in Ireland at the close of the 17th century. the reader will find in each of those three Vols. much information in relation to the genealogies of the Anglo-Irish families who settled in Ireland since the English invasion, which are not given in this work."
So the Wakefields are listed in this section's list of families and I am wanting to know since the genealogies are not included in this book, Irish Pedigrees, how to get a hold of the 3 volumes that I mentioned above that were included in the quote above from page 690 of the book. Where can one find the MS Volumes 1-3?fruitytooty
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My previous post asked if anyone knew how to access what is listed on page 690 of the book Irish Pedigrees by John O'Hart, that says "According to the MS Vols. F.3 23, F. 3 27, and F. 4 18, in Trinty college, Dublin, Ireland ...
So the Wakefields are listed in this section's list of families and I am wanting to know since the genealogies are not included in this book, Irish Pedigrees, how to get a hold of the 3 volumes that I mentioned above that were included in the quote above from page 690 of the book. Where can one find the MS Volumes 1-3?fruitytooty
Trinty college, Dublin, Ireland ???
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And I thought I was being helpful ::) I got lost in the text.
You state:
"My previous post asked if anyone knew how to access what is listed on page 690 of the book Irish Pedigrees by John O'Hart, that says "According to the MS Vols. F.3 23, F. 3 27, and F. 4 18, in Trinty college, Dublin, Ireland"
Would you infer that they are in Trinity College Dublin - or have I misinterpreted your message?
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Thank you for listing the sites for the books I mentioned. I am sorry if you took my reply the wrong way. I assume also they are at Trinity college at Dublin but I do not know how to find the records. I have tried Trinity college website. I thought maybe someone could help me find those records. Sorry and thanks for all the help you give. I will keep looking or maybe someone will read this and be able to direct me on how to go about getting the records from the college.fruitytooty
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Thank you. :)
Trinity College may be able to help with interpreting the reference.
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Fruitytooty:
I actually did read about the piece of waistcoat and Mr. Pilch before (I don't remember when), but didn't think about the significance. While I don't know that my family was actually related to the Augrim Wakefields, it does appear (according to Mr. Pilch) that there may be a connection between my Wakefields and Dr. Albert Wakefield.
You most likely have exhausted all leads for Dr. Albert Wakefield, but I will try looking as well, as one never knows what one may find, eh?
Again, thank you to everyone who is helping with this search. :)
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You need to visit Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland, to see copies of manuscripts (MS reference quote) so the record previously listed are not available unless they are online somewhere.fruitytooty
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Concerning family trees that reference Cromwell's army and John Wakefield, the first record in Ireland for the Wakefield family, and the '49 officers go to:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.wakefield/926/mb.ashx Thanks, fruitytooty
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Visit http://johnflemingwakefield.com/index.php?p=1_24_Ireland-Home for a picture of Robert Wakefield home-son of Dr. Albert Wakefield-supposingly the physican to the King-note that this site says the plaque in front of the home of Robert Wakefield says "Home of Robert Wakefield, Physican to the King, Born 1670, Aughrim, Galway, Ireland. I wonder what David Pilch and his "cherished piece of waistcoat" would say about this? From the reference in the Wakefield Memorial previously mentioned in a post. Anyone who lives in Ireland have an idea on the plaque in front of the home or why it is there? I live in the U.S.A. and cannot go to the places in Ireland so I ask on rootschat site for Ireland-who have access and knowlege for Ireland- so do not refer me to the place of the plaque. If someone asked me about a historical marker in the USA I would find a county historian to refer them to-certainly not tell them to go to the place-like Trinity College. fruitytooty
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The streets of Aughrim, Co. Galway are covered by Google Streetview so you should be able to see any plaque visible from the street. Simply go to Google Maps, type in 'aughrim, galway' and when the map appears drag the little orange person on the left side onto a blue line on the map.
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Thanks for the info. fruitytooty
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I thought I would post information for another Wakefield family that may be related to this branch of Wakefields-they are located in the same location-the location info being from a visit to Ireland and the Nebeker Family History site previously mentioned.
From the son of E. Wakefield born 1935-female-this family emigrated when the son I am corresponding with was 1 year old. His grandfather was Joseph Wakefield b 1881 d 1956 and he lived on one of the Wakefield farms in Urrachee before he moved to Tullamore around the age of 14. (The home from the johnflemingwakefield site was pointed out as where his grandfather lived)Joseph married Eleanor Lawrence 1901-1977. Joseph was the son of Joseph Wakefield 1824-1901 who married a neighbor Anne Walsh 1845-1919. Joseph was the son of Charles Wakefield 1781-1866 who married Margaret 1790-1880. Anne was the dau of thomas Walsh.
Based on the 1911 census, all list Church of Ireland-and this could be debatable but it is prob mandatory at this time, there were 4 Wakefield farms at the time in Urrachee, Parish: Clontuskert: Farm 1 Joseph b 1881 brothers and sisters farm (thomas, charles, Annie, Lizzie, and Jane)
Farm2 William b 1848 (unmarried) unknown relation
Farm3 John Wakefield's b 1873 family-I think John was a son of Thomas, below
Farm4 Thomas Wakefield b 1836 family-possible Uncle to Farm 1
In 1855 there are records for Wakefields and Walshs in Clontuskert parish
Charles and William Wakefield and thomas Walsh. It is believed that Charles Wakefield is the forebearer for the Joseph Wakefield family. Perhaps William is the brother of Charles? There is not a Walsh farm in the 1911 census but Anne Walsh was the dau of Thomas Walsh. Like most Wakefield families the info seems to end at the end of the 18th century-beginning of 19th century. I believe it is due to the lack of records.
Does any of this information look familiar to any Wakefields or Walsh's that may read this?
Thanks, fruitytooty
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I wanted to add some information regarding previous posts. I have referenced John O'Harts Irish Pedigrees and The Landed Gentry When Cromwell Came to Ireland that both have Wakefield records in them. John Wakefield is on the list for the 1649 Officers. They are not members of Cromwell's Army-they are Protestant Royalist against the ideology of the Parliamentarians of Cromwell that executed Charles I-the Restoration Acts of 1660-Charles II-relate to the '49 Officers who served prior to 1649 and ended their service and remained loyal and Charles II recognized them. It is debatable about the lands in Ireland held by the Wakefields-John Wakefield and the Ulster Plantation-and in the Wakefield Memorial it states I believe 214-215 that his land was lost due to the Catholic Rebellion in 1641-but this is also debatable and you need to read history to understand this. I have been searching the National Archives in London-Irish papers are there-and there are records in the Calendar of State Papers relating to Ireland at openlibrary.org. In these are a lot of records with lots of names for people doing early research for Ireland ancestry. Also there are manuscripts you can access there-even some that were held at Trinity College, Dublin. In my search I have seen Genealogy Registers listed in the Records for Ireland held by the UK-it was the main place of government during the 1600's. The Calendar of State Papers, Ireland 1663-65 has information in it also for '49 Officers and the Restoration Acts 1660 by Charles II. In the Calendar for 1633-47 is info for Ulster Plantation and some explanations concerning Connaught, plantation, Ulster, and army info. I have found a record for Thomas Wakefield for a petition 1588 Jan 22-Ireland Papers, once again. Also in the Calendar for 1660-63 you can find records for 3 Wakefields. George, Thomas-I found these interesting concerning people have listed brothers of John that include a George and a Thomas. http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.wakefield/443.5/mb.ashx is an example-and includes information I posted here in for Wakefield born in Pomfret Yorkshire England that is listed in hundreds of trees and doubted to being accurate here-so this is an example as to where I found this information-was asked at that site. All these Calendars help explain the history of Ireland-and an understanding of the 1649 Officers that people are confusing with being part of Cromwell's Army-I did-and they are not and lots of trees show this. The answer to where the Wakefields were between 1650 and 1691 I believe depend upon if they lost land or were granted land. And as the http://www.johnflemingwakefield.com/ click on Ireland home shows on the plaque the story about Dr. Albert is even debatable. It is possible that John Wakefield was granted land as part of the military in the mile line in the Province of Connacht. Or he had a previous land grant there not Ulster Plantation-upon reading the plaque it is as though Robert was born in 1670 Aughrim, Galway-this home is in Wakefield Village and was occupied by Joseph Wakefield in the 1800's. A member of the family, too. If land was lost and "moved" to this family estate as in the Wakefield Memorial-it would mean no home in Ireland prior to Dr. Albert's grant of land and even this contradicts the plaque saying Robert was. Just an update.
Thanks for reading and reply if you have a suggestion for researching the National Archives in London or history regarding Wakefield home in Ireland. fruitytooty
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I thought I would add a site to search for records that relate to the '49 Officers and John Wakefield who is said to of lost his land when he did not serve Cromwell but remained loyal to Charles. The 1649 Officers were Protestant Royalist-opposed to Cromwells Parliamentarian government. The 1660 Restoration Acts are also included in these various records. There are Books of Survey and Distribution Records for various counties that include Galway at this site http://www.irishmanuscripts.ie/servlet/Controller?action=digitisation_backlist
There are also some other early Irish historical manuscipts here and many on the list are important for early Irish genealogy but do not take my word for it they tell you this! I do not believe anyone has listed this site yet and I was hoping someone would list a site like this for the manuscipt I previously asked about that is found at Trinty College. I live in the USA and it seems there are sites online that do have Irish manuscripts. If you have read my postings you know the MSS I had asked about previously and I have asked about these, too. Thanks, fruitytooty