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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: FamilyDet on Wednesday 13 February 13 06:35 GMT (UK)
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Needing help on tracing people that came to Australia from Ireland in the 1830's and 1840's. Also wondering about marriage banns.
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Hi livpete,
Two very different questions, really.
Firstly, have you looked at the Australian Resources board? That will have lots of links to sites with information about immigration.
What was it you wanted to know about marriage banns? Which country and religion are you talking about?
Regards
Prue
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Hi Prue,
Will check out the Resources board.
With the marriage banns just wondering what the difference is with a marriage certificate. It was in Australia, New South Wales and the Presbyterian Church in 1848.
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It used to be the case, and still is in some churches, that notice of an impending marriage had to be read out in the parish church of both parties, on 3 successive Sundays, before the wedding.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage
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It used to be the case, and still is in some churches, that notice of an impending marriage had to be read out in the parish church of both parties, on 3 successive Sundays, before the wedding.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage
I think you will find that the wiki article is referring to the practices of the Church of England parishes in ENGLAND.
The practices of the Presbyterian Church in New South Wales AUSTRALIA were not ever governed by the Eccs laws of the Church of England. The civil laws of NSW from 1823 separated English Civil Laws (including the various Marriage Acts) from New South Wales Laws/General Orders of the Governor.
With the marriage banns just wondering what the difference is with a marriage certificate. It was in Australia, New South Wales and the Presbyterian Church in 1848.
It is not usual to find extant copies of Banns records for NSW. If the either the bride or the groom was serving a current sentence of transportation (not likely for a 1848 marriage) then permission to marry would need to be sought from the Prison authorities. Transportation to NSW effectively ceased in 1840. There were of course persons still serving their sentences in 1848 in NSW.
As the NSW BDM was not established until 1856, civil registrations don't commence until that time either. Prior to 1856 you need to rely on Early Church Records. The NSW BDM holds the authority to issue certified records of the ECRs. The ECRs are scant on vital information from a family history perspective.
There are some alternative ways to hopefully break down or at least make cracks in brickwalls.
Cheers, JM
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If you need some help just post some names etc and will see what we can find for you :)
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It used to be the case, and still is in some churches, that notice of an impending marriage had to be read out in the parish church of both parties, on 3 successive Sundays, before the wedding.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage)
I think you will find that the wiki article is referring to the practices of the Church of England parishes in ENGLAND.
That's true, JM, but wasn't/isn't the requirement for the reading of the banns the same for CofE as it was/is for Presbyterians?
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Thank you so much.
The names I have are for a Bridget McDonald. She states on one of childrens birth certificates that she was from Dublin, and her age in 1862 was 38. Her death certificates states that she had been living in nsw since 1840. She married a Francis Morris in 1848 by banns in the Scots Presbyterian church. She signs her name with an x mark. On the marriage banns she is a spinster and a member of the scots church. Witnesses at the wedding were John McIntosh and Jane McIntosh. The other one is Francis Morris, on all his childrens birth certificates he states he came from Limerick and was a house painter. His age in 1862 is 42. They were living in Goulburn Street, Sydney in 1862. On his death certificate he puts the year of arrival in nsw as 1839, per Morentia. The death certificate was not filled out by a relative. His occupation is a painter on his death certificate.
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Previous thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,635271.0.html
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It used to be the case, and still is in some churches, that notice of an impending marriage had to be read out in the parish church of both parties, on 3 successive Sundays, before the wedding.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage)
I think you will find that the wiki article is referring to the practices of the Church of England parishes in ENGLAND.
That's true, JM, but wasn't/isn't the requirement for the reading of the banns the same for CofE as it was/is for Presbyterians?
Agree Prue, B U T ..... ;D
In England, there are extant records easily available for the records of the dates the Banns were read/called etc. In NSW the requirement of 3 successive Sundays was NOT enforced in any denomination due in the most part to the tyranny of distance v the small population v the low numbers of clergy. In NSW there is scant extant records re calling of Banns. There are some records of the issuing of marriage licences .... eg where one of the parties was currently serving a sentence of transportation or where one of the parties was a widower/widow. May I briefly note that until about 1860 in NSW (so this applies at least to Victoria until 1851 and to Qld until 1859) that the term "widower/widow" had a broader meaning than just a person whose marriage ended with the death of their spouse.
Cheers, JM
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Thank you so much.
The names I have are for a Bridget McDonald. She states on one of childrens birth certificates that she was from Dublin, and her age in 1862 was 38. Her death certificates states that she had been living in nsw since 1840. She married a Francis Morris in 1848 by banns in the Scots Presbyterian church. She signs her name with an x mark. On the marriage banns she is a spinster and a member of the scots church. Witnesses at the wedding were John McIntosh and Jane McIntosh. The other one is Francis Morris, on all his childrens birth certificates he states he came from Limerick and was a house painter. His age in 1862 is 42. They were living in Goulburn Street, Sydney in 1862. On his death certificate he puts the year of arrival in nsw as 1839, per Morentia. The death certificate was not filled out by a relative. His occupation is a painter on his death certificate.
May I please ask which document do you hold that gives you this information? May I also please ask for the name of the clergyman performing the 1848 ceremony and the address where the service was performed? Not all clergymen interpreted their Church Laws in exactly the same way, there's some issues around marriages pre the Gold Rushes and the ways the clergy recorded the details in a) church registers and b) their own diaries.
Some diaries are held at the NSW State Records Office Archives.
Cheers, JM
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The document is a transcription I purchased from nsw bdm. It doesn't have a lot of information on it. The only address it has for place is Sydney and below that is married by banns. The minister was a John McGarvie, Presbyterian. Her status says spinster, member of the Scots Church.
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Hi,
I have had a quick look on the NSW BDM website and as per usual for marriages BEFORE civil registration commenced, there's two records of the 1848 marriage for Fancis and Bridget. One event, two different index references. Sorry if I am getting too specific but ....
This is because of the NSW government's then requirement that a record of each baptism, burial and wedding was to be transmitted to the NSW Chaplains. This requirement dates back to the era of Governor Macquarie (1810-1821). So, what is on ONE record can often be slightly different from what is on the OTHER record.
1848 marriage
Volume 73B line 1642
and
Volume 78, line 765
which of the above references is the document's reference please.
However, in either instance, it is unlikely to learn the names of the parents of either the bride or groom from those records. If either the bride or groom were not yet 21 years of age (ie classified legally as an 'infant' in 19thC or as a 'minor' in early 20thC until turning 21) then the name of the person (and relationship) giving consent is recorded on the mc.
Cheers, JM
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http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexesold/searchform.aspx?id=45
Rev The document is a transcription I purchased from nsw bdm. It doesn't have a lot of information on it. The only address it has for place is Sydney and below that is married by banns. The minister was a John McGarvie, Presbyterian. Her status says spinster, member of the Scots Church.
Some of the Rev McGarvie's papers are held at the NSW SRO. Fingers crossed that includes his 1848 diary entries.
Cheers, JM
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Rev Dr John McGarvie, DD
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/mcgarvie-john-2399
St Andrews in 1848
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600151h.html
Sorry for the sidetrack, I am sure you are more interested in finding confirmation that Francis MORRIS marriage to Bridget McDONALD is the one that is for your family.
Cheers, JM
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Thank you so much for all your help, learning a lot. The Ref No. was vol 78 No 765. I was hoping that there would have been a lot more information than was on there. Have been doing a bit of research on Francis Morris, trying to find out how he arrived here and thought he could have been a convict. Do you know if that would have had to be recorded?
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Re if Francis had been transported under a sentence.
This is not something that would be listed on a marriage record for 1848 UNLESS the marriage was noted "permission of the governor". As transportation to NSW had effectively ceased in 1840, and as the majority of sentences were for 7 years, the number of persons living in NSW in 1848 who were still serving 'time' was actually quite small in respect of the general population. So, as the marriage was by banns, may I suggest it is not likely that either the bride or the groom were under any then current sentence. That does not give complete proof that they had come free, nor that they had previously completed time as a convict (either for a conviction of a court in NSW or Van Diemens Land or been transported as a convict). But it can be a good indication that neither the bride nor the groom were 'convicts'.
I doubt there will be greater detail on the other indexed document held by NSW BDM. If you are in Sydney NSW, perhaps you could go to the NSW State Library in Macquarie St, and go to the reels of film in the family history section and actually look at the two images for the marriage records (vol 78 and vol 73B most likely on different reels). HOWEVER, you are not permitted to take away any image of those documents. BUT .... sometimes the clergy made notes outside the margins, and of course, you are looking at the image rather than at a transcription of the image, so you can see the signatures (or their marks) of the bride, groom and the two witnesses. BUT again I stress, you don't learn the vital clues re the parents of the bride/groom from those ECRs held either by NSW BDM or NSW SL.
Perhaps you should consider contacting the archivist for St Andrews Church ? They may have Rev McGarvie's private papers or perhaps the TWO registers from 1848 ?
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-NSW/2010-01/1264060133
Cheers, JM
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Thank you for all the information. I will see if I can contact the archivist for St Andrews Church. Hopefully that will provide a bit more information. I think I may be off the track with who I thought Francis Morris might have been. Had found a convict that seemed to match with him and was thinking it could be him. Sounds like it probably isn't.
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It used to be the case, and still is in some churches, that notice of an impending marriage had to be read out in the parish church of both parties, on 3 successive Sundays, before the wedding.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage
I think you will find that the wiki article is referring to the practices of the Church of England parishes in ENGLAND.
Not at all! If you read the article it mentions USA, Canada, Belgium and Netherlands also.
It also explains that banns originated in the Catholic Church, dating from 1215, and abolished in 1983.
OP mentioned marriage by banns - so I attempted to explain what banns were.
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I think I may be off the track with who I thought Francis Morris might have been. Had found a convict that seemed to match with him and was thinking it could be him. Sounds like it probably isn't.
Oh I don't know, if I was a betting person I wouldn't mind putting a bit on him!!
The trial in 1838 (what a confusing story!)
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-362-18381217&div=t18381217-362#highlight
Printed Indents, Ship Barrosa, arrived NSW 8 Dec 1839
Francis MORRIS
Aged 23
Read and write
Protestant
Married, 1 female child
Native of County Limerick
Occupation: Painter and Glazier
Offence: Stealing a watch
Tried: Central Criminal Court, 17 December 1838
Sentence: 10 years
No former convictions
5ft 7¼ins
Fair, ruddy, and freckled
Hair: Light sandy brown
Eyes: Grey to blue
There is also an extensive physical description. I cannot see a free cert or a pardon for him at the moment, and I possibly know why. On 4 Jan 1847 he was issued with a ticket of leave and was to stay within the Maitland area. On 27 March 1849 the TOL was cancelled as he had absconded from the district and was still at large. There is no time frame given, but I am guessing that it was before his marriage in Sydney. There is a reference to a Colonial Secretary's letter 49/1315.
Francis was admitted to prison eight times in the following years, and his ship and occupation are always noted. The only two which I can find definite reasons for are both in 1864 - for the assault and attempted rape of his daughter Louisa (acquitted and discharged), and I wonder if there was a bit of bad blood going on between him and his wife because the other was for refusing to obey a magisterial order for the maintenance of his wife. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13100733
As his daughter's name was Louisa (she is named in the Police Gazette) and she was under 11 years of age, would we agree that this is your Francis?
I must say though, you would have thought that he would change his name when he married!
The gaol admission years were 1856 (twice), 1858 (twice), 1859, December 1860 (discharged in March 1861), as well as the two times in 1864, just in case anyone wants to try and find his crimes. ;D
Debra :)
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Just read through all your information Debra. Thank you, thank you. Can I ask, how you found all the information about his convictions and especially the daughter, Louisa. With this information I think the case might be cracked. The other thing that put me off with finding him was on the marriage banns he states that he is a bachelor. After reading all the things that he did, I am thinking telling a lie wasn't that important to him. Can not thank you enough!
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Trying not to sidetrack, but re the wiki banns article
! If you read the article it mentions USA, Canada, Belgium and Netherlands also.
It also explains that banns originated in the Catholic Church, dating from 1215, and abolished in 1983.
Yes, I read the article at the time I first replied on this thread. I noticed that it specifically noted that :
"In England, under the provisions of Lord Hardwicke's Act of 1753, a marriage was only legally valid if the banns had been called or a marriage licence had been obtained, codifying earlier practice within the Church of England. By this statute, 26 Geo. II, c.33, the banns were required to be read aloud on three Sundays before the wedding ceremony, in the home parish churches of both parties"
and
"United States
Lord Hardwicke's Act did not extend outside England and Wales, and hence did not become law in the colonies that would later become the United States of America. For this reason, and as a consequence of the American separation of church and state, banns or equivalent notice by publication is not required before marriage ....."
The marriage our OP is referring to was in Sydney NSW Australia in 1848, so as I mentioned earlier, the English laws post 1823 were without effect in NSW unless they specifically mentioned they were to have effect in Colony. (NSW and VDL had their own Supreme Courts from 1823)
Cheers, JM
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Yes, Debra could well have found the right Francis....
Sometimes on the reels of film at NSW State Library their images of marriages shows information that the clergyman notes down in the "white space" on the register. When this occurs, the clergy sometimes recorded the ages of the bride and the groom in the white space to the left of the section where the bride and the groom sign their names!
Have a look at the images for 1848 for the Church of England, for Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle (NSW)..... and notice the white spaces near these signatures. That's where some clergy at some times noted the ages of the bride and groom.
The images are linked via RChat's NSW Resources Board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html
and then
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605008173551/ 1826 – 1837 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157604433014652/ 1837 – 1838 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605132739200/ 1839 – 1861 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605674610949/ 1856 – 1868 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605785759029/ 1869 – 1885 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605802132868/ 1885 – 1897 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606197590347/ 1899 – 1913 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605928662968/ 1913 – 1914 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606308436455/ 1914 – 1916 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606323070651/ 1916 – 1918 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606450662513/ 1918 – 1929 Marriage Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606952230042/ 1929 – 1936 Marriages Register
Yes, that's for C of E records, and the 1848 marriage MORRIS=MCDONALD was Presbyterian, but perhaps when you are contacting the archivist, you could also ask if Rev McGarvie kept any Family History Sheets and if so, do they hold these too? C of E clergy often maintained family sheets and sometimes these included the names of the ships of arrival for both bride and groom ..... Fingers and toes crossed here !
Cheers, JM
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Francis Morris, on all his childrens birth certificates he states he came from Limerick and was a house painter. His age in 1862 is 42. They were living in Goulburn Street, Sydney in 1862. On his death certificate he puts the year of arrival in nsw as 1839, per Morentia. The death certificate was not filled out by a relative. His occupation is a painter on his death certificate.
I think this clue (Morentia) is worth following up. Perhaps the crew/passenger list is available ;D
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31721649 5 Sept 1838 The Colonist mentions that vessel :)
ADD
http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/browselist.html I am adding this link with some hesitancy ... it is NOT keyword searchable. It is full of newspapers for the 1840s including several from 1839 :) BUT it needs huge buckets of patience to find details. At least it is better than the former way of physically going to a library and going through their archives, cause this way at least you can shout out to OH and ask for a cuppa !
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
I have to have a lie down after looking at that page! I think the word is "Florentia"?? I have been unable to find a reference to the Morentia or anything like it. There is a list of ships into NSW here http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-immigration-and-shipping-records/index-to-vessels-arriving-in-sydney
Debra :)
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;D :o I am still trying to figure out "Morentia" too (I had tried to find some patience with the old ferguson website, but trove has made me a tad lazy ... shhhhh, please don't dobb) .... I have quite a collection of NSW BDM certs, and official transcripts in my hoard, but so far, I have only found 3 that actually include the name of the ship of arrival ::) and among my various fh buffs, I know it is quite a rare thing to actually find noted on NSW BDM dc registrations.
I wonder if our OP has an official transcription or if the information giving that ship's name is being read from the original longhand on an actual NSW BDM dc?
If it is from the longhand, then perhaps our OP could take a snip of that section and post it as an attachment on this thread, for some RChatters to offer to decipher?
Cheers, JM
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I was thinking that he died in an institution as there is sometimes lots of extra info on death certs such as the name of the ship.
It does not apply to this particular query, but for a short time the pre-printed burial registers in NSW had a column headed "Quality or profession, if bond, ship's name". I have never ascertained exactly which years, but it was around the early 1840's, and most clergy filled in that column whether the deceased was a convict or an immigrant, and also added info that you wouldn't normally find at that time. See http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/2504041539/sizes/l/in/set-72157605132739200/ That is why it is always important to look at every document even if you think it won't have much info.
Debra :)
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Agree Debra, my thoughts too re the dc
Some rushed and jumbled thoughts ….
Re the Francis MORRIS who arrived in 1839 on the Barossa. The chap that Debra mentions…. His ToL dates from 1847, Maitland …. ToL47/110. …
I have read the Old Bailey account…. Francis MORRIS was a policeman !!!!!!!.
Some extracts :
“SAMSON DARKIN CAMPBELL . I am an Inspector of police. I received information respecting the stealing of this watch—the prisoner, Francis Morris, came to the station-house of his own accord—he was dressed as a policeman in his uniform …. —I then sent for the prisoner Ellen Morris into the charge-room, and asked her what her husband was—she said, "a painter and glazier"—I said, "Is he not in the police?"—she then burst into tears, and said, "He is—I know nothing of the watch—I never saw it till this morning"—I found the key of the watch at the prisoner Francis Morris's lodgings ”
And
“WILLIAM YEOMAN (police-constable K 57.) I was on duty on the morning of the 25th of October, in the Mile-end-road—I saw the prisoner Francis Morris on duty that morning—he was on the beat where this felony was said to have been committed—he was alone—he was on duty from nine o'clock at night till six o'clock in the morning—I saw him several times—I saw him between one and two o'clock that morning.”
“FRANCIS MORRIS— GUILTY . Aged 22.
ELLEN MORRIS— NOT GUILTY .
Transported for Ten Years”
So the Francis Morris transported to NSW on the Barossa arriving in 1839 was aged 22 when sent to trial in December 1838, and was a married man, with 1 child.
Have you tried to find details of that (English) marriage (to Ellen) or birth of the female child? Civil registrations commenced in 1837 in England
Re his status on that 1848 NSW marriage record. He stated he was a bachelor. Are you aware that the sentence of transportation beyond the seas for seven or more years effectively ended the marriage? So that it is likely that he may well have explained that earlier marriage to the Rev McGarvie . Please remember that the information on the mc is recorded by the clergy, and in 1848 the options available to the clergy were either Bachelor/Spinster OR Widow/Widower. As the marriage was by BANNS, the only option available in 1848 for the clergyman to record was BACHELOR. A Widow/widower needed a licence, which the clergyman would be involved in organising.
Some information on the following link re ending marriages before Civil Divorce came to the various colonies in Australia
http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html
Cheers, JM
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livpete, you said that Bridget's death cert named her father as Michael (crossed out), then Patrick added instead. Can you confirm that this is her death reg. with a mistake in the indexing or was she registered with a different surname?
785/1893
MORRIS, BRIDGET
Parents WILLIAM & BRIDGET
SYDNEY
Debra :)
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Thank you everyone for so much information. Just going through it all. I am a little confused now. Is there such a ship as the "Morentia"? I have done some searches and never been able to find it. The certificate I have with that information was a transcribed death certificate. He died in the Liverpool Asylum in 1877. The informant was the clerk. There is not a lot of information on it. No mention of family at all. His occupation is put as a Painter, age 58, place of birth Ireland, Time in Aust Colonies states per "Morentia" 1839.
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Hi Debra,
It states on the certificate that it was altered from
William McDonald to Patrick McDonald and that is the correct certificate. Have no idea why I wrote Michael :-\
Liv
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He died in the Liverpool Asylum in 1877. The informant was the clerk.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-in-brief/archives-in-brief-85
Don't build your hopes up, but cross all fingers, toes, and everything, as on the rare occasion, there's sometimes clues in the hospital records. At least you should be able to read the ship's name on those hospital records.
Cheers, JM
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Some interesting details & information in the newspaper about Francis MORRIS (convict).
POLICE INTELLIGENCE. The Morning Post (London, England), Saturday, November 03, 1838.
I have posted it here:
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/5795071/francis-morris-pdf-94k?dn=y (http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/5795071/francis-morris-pdf-94k?dn=y)
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Hi Livpete,
Persons named Bridget McDONALD seem to be quite thin on the ground and I can't see an immigration record for her.
I have been pondering on this family and whether it might be Bridget's. Having a look at the Bounty Immigrants index on FamilySearch here are some links:
Bridget McDONOUGH
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12861-92560-71?cc=1542665&wc=814642
Mary Ann McDONOUGH
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12861-113340-4?cc=1542665&wc=814651
Edward McDONOUGH
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12861-86006-69?cc=1542665&wc=814622
Father Patrick died from typhus on 3 November 1839, aged 40 on the list of deaths, but 53 on the entitlement certificate. Interesting that he was a painter and glazier. His younger children are listed here:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12861-86548-86?cc=1542665&wc=814652
Mother Bridget died from typhus on 12 November 1839, aged 34 on the list of deaths, but this is unlikely given the ages of her eldest children. She has no other details recorded.
The disposal list for the North Briton:
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.asp?Page=NRS5313/4_4780/North%20Briton_14%20Dec%201839/4_478000170.jpg&No=2
Patrick, Francis and Margaret were sent to the Roman Catholic Orphan School.
William, Anne and Catherine went to Reverend Mr. MARASSON? at Windsor.
Edward (page 4) went to H.C. HEMPHILL or SEMPHILL at Darlinghurst.
Bridget (page 5) went to Mr PETERS at Marulan?
Mary Ann has no disposal details listed.
I do acknowledge that they weren't from Dublin as Bridget McDONALD stated, and it may just be that Bridget's immigration record is one that has not survived, or she may have arrived under a different name. I just think that the similarities are enough to maybe chase up the family and see if any connection can be found.
Debra :)