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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Emmeline on Wednesday 13 February 13 04:09 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone know what a black silk weaver did differently to any other silk weaver ? I have had a look on the internet but would like a simple explanation.
Many thanks.
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I'm guessing that the weaving of black silk is NO different from that of the white variety. I notice, however (from reading on the web), that black silk squares, were at that time, part of Naval uniform. Perhaps that was the distinction drawn: the individual had a specialisation in weaving black silk.
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Thank you for your reply jrchd. Yes, as you say it was more than likely that there was a
specialisation in black silk. Interesting to hear of the Navy link - I shall pursue those black
squares to see if I can find out more.
By the way, a warm welcome to Rootschat.
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Emmeline - thank you. I hope that the reply WAS helpful. I don't know if the use of the silk by the Navy was later on...
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This does not answer your question I am afraid but it is interesting and you may be able to pose the question here has well; http://venetianred.net/2010/01/05/james-leman-and-the-18th-century-silk-weavers-of-spitalfields/
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Yes jrchd that information was useful - when searching out family history stories every little snippet helps.
Hello Youngtug - what a beautiful web-site. Thank you. I am dealing with forebears with names Duthoit & DeLasaux - families of weavers.
I found the following on the internet : - Wood Street. No 3 was occupied in 1750 and 1759 by Peter Duthoit, a black silk weaver who was a captain in the Trained Bands 1746-1762.
Do either of you have any knowledge of the Trained Bands ??? One thing always leads to another ::)
Thank you both for your help.
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Here is more reading and a mention of the trained bands; http://www.alphabetthreat.co.uk/pasttense/bold%20defiance.html
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Thanks again youngtug. I have had a good long read and found the part about the Trained Bands.
All most interesting.
I see you are in Wiltshire. I spent many happy holidays there as a child in a little place called Box.
Kind regards.....
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Hello again Emmeline
There is a good 16 page article in Volume 15 of the Huguenot Society proceedings (1934) 'Huguenots in the Trained Bands of London and the Honourable Artillery Company' by Major G. Goold Walker. This gives a background to what they were and a list of Huguenots who were members.
There are two Duthoit(e)'s listed:
Peter Duthoite, Weaver in Spitalfields, Admitted to the Artillery Company 6 February 1741 to 1763. Lieutenant Red Trained Bands 1741-46, Captain Tower Hamlets Trained Band 1746-62.
James Duthoite, Baker, Wentworth Street, Admitted to the Artillery Company 13 June 1749 to 1763. Lieutenant Red Trained Bands 1749-55, Lieutenant 1755-62.
also a couple of Fleuriettes:
Peter Fleuriett, Fleurett, or Flearitt, Weaver, Pelham Street (Spitalfields), Admitted to the Artillery Company 6 April 1725, Sergeant Orange Trained Bands 1725. Re-entered in 1755 Sergeant Orange Trained Bands 1755-71.
John Fleurriette, Weaver, Old Nicol Street (Bethnal Green), Admitted to the Artillery Company 10 June 1755, Sergeant White Trained Bands 1755-59, Sergeant Orange Trained Bands 1763-71.
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Also in regards 'Black Silk' it was a specially prized material, as it was always in demand for mourning shawls and scarfs, etc. Until the Huguenots came it had to be imported from France as the secret of its manufacture was only known there and zealously guarded. Jean Larguier, a refugee from Nīmes, was the first one to bring it to London in 1684:
Jean Larguier, a refugee from Nīmes in Languedoc, applies to the Weavers' Company of London for admittance as a master. He claims that he can weave the fashionable 'lustring' and 'alamode' silk fabrics. 'Lustring' silk is glossy; it has a lustre to it. 'Alamode' silk is a thin glossy black silk. Neither of these silks has been made in England before. Until now, they have been imported from France.
The Weavers' Company asks him to provide a sample of his work. Some months later he comes back with a piece of alamode silk that he has 'shot' with silk of another colour. 'Shot' silk is woven with warp threads of one colour and weft threads of another. The fabric changes colour when seen from different angles.
The English weavers agree that silk of this quality has never been made in England before. They believe that the knowledge of such techniques will greatly benefit the nation.
Jean Larguier is admitted to the Weavers' Company without paying the usual fees. The only condition is that for one year he must manufacture these alamode and lustring silks and employ English workmen to make them.
A Royal Patent and Act of Parliament was passed in 1697 banning the importation of both types of silk, to encourage the domestic trade, which was succesful. By the mid 1700's the Duthoits, alongisde Zachariah Agace of Normandy, and Daniel Mesman dominated this area of the London industry.
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Emmeline,
There is a six page article on the Duthoit family of London and Canterbury, in Volume 14 of the Huguenot Society's proceedings (1933). Have you seen this? If not can send you a copy. It seems Peter Duthoit of Wood Street's mother was a Mesman, so it may have been the link with that family that led the Duthoits to black silks.
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Hello richarde
First, thank you for the time spent in answering my questions.
I am transcribing Peter Duthoit's Will at the moment - one always learns more from these documents.
Thank you for all the ' Black Silk ' information - all most interesting.
Re the article on the Duthoit family I would very much appreciate having a copy. Yes, Peter's mother was Jane Mesman - all these connections !
I will send you a p.m. shortly.
Thanks again for all your wonderful input.
Regards :)
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I was thinking about this over the weekend: it may be a property of black silk that it, because of its colour, shows up every flaw or break in its surface and takes a weaver of expert skill to weave a perfect cloth.
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Richarde1979
What an interesting thread, which I have enjoyed reading.
Please could you tell me where I could look at the "Huguenot society proceedings" you quoted from.
Is it something I can look up online?
I have an ancestor who was said to be a silk mercer in Spitalfields and would like to look him up.
Cheers
OFG
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Hi OFG
The proceedings is the annual journal published by the Huguenot Society since its inception in 1885
http://www.huguenotsociety.org.uk/publications/proceedings.html
They can be downloaded online, but you have to be a member of the Society to do so.
I'm happy to have a look for your man if you can give some more details.
Richard
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Hi Richarde 1979
Thanks very much for your kind offer, sorry about the late reply but I was out galavanting yesterday.
Having worked 3 years on my OH highland roots i'm now picking up the geneology my mum started in the late 70s. Sorry it's all a bit scant but this is what was written by her then elderly uncle.
Robert (poss. John) Phipps (1807-1885) - sometime silk mercer at Spittalfields, London. Quote written in 1974 by said uncle "I have some specimens of his silks made for his daughter Hannahs wedding dress and later re-made for the wedding dress of his youngest daughter Harriet."
Hope you find something, thanks alot for looking.
OFG
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Hello OFG
The Phipps do not appear to have been a Huguenot family so do not appear in the proceedings, though I have had a look into them and it does appear they married into Huguenot families.
The origin of the London family appears to be one Robert Phipps. He was married at the Anchors Crown Public House, Fleet Prison Liberty, Westminster, by the Reverend John Gaynam on 8 October 1730. Gaynam operated at the Fleet from 1709-1740 and self styled himself as 'the Doctor', and interestingly is described in John Southerden Burn's history of the Fleet registers as 'famed for the number of his marriages and unrivaled for notoriety of character! His nickname was 'The Bishop of Hell". Robert's bride was Ann-Maria Green, and on the record he is described as 'living in st Botolph, Aldgate, a Framework Knitter.'
I cannot find a baptism for him in that parish and suspect he was born outside London. There is an Edward Phipps, Framework Knitter, on a list of Leicester tradesmen who complained of their conditions in 1701, so he may have been from this area. Before 1721 most silk yarn was 'thrown' at home by hand, but the invention of a water-powered throwing mill by Thomas Lombe in Derby, led to the beginning of 'factory production' of silk, and the Spitalfields Manufacturers needed skilled framework knitters to operate their new machines.
Robert and Ann Marie had several children together. Two of their sons Robert and Peter went into the silk business, Robert as a throwster, Peter as a weaver.
Peter is the ancestor of your line, he was baptised 5 Dec 1736 at St Mary's, Whitechapel. He was married to Elizabeth Ferry 7 August 1764 at St Leonard's, Shoreditch. She may well have been from a Huguenot family, there were several different families by this name in London's Huguenot silk weaving community.
Peter and Elizabeth had several children baptised in East London between 1765-81. His son Robert Phipps, born 11 December 1776, baptised Christmas day 1776 at St Matthew's, Bethnal Green, was apprenticed aged 15 on 3 January 1792 as a silk weaver, to Matthew Read citizen and weaver. His elder brother Thomas had also been apprenticed to the same gentleman 7 years earlier. Their father Peter was described as a weaver on their records, of St John Street, Bethnal Green in 1785, and Mile End New Town in 1792. Peter died in 1827, leaving a will, and his adress at that time was Wilmot Street, Bethnal Green.
Robert Phipps certainly did marry into a Huguenot family. His bride was Elizabeth Rebelou, daughter of Guilluame/William Rebelou, and they were married 26 February 1805 at St Dunstan's, Stepney.
Robert John Phipps was their son, born 7 august 1807, baptised 13 september 1807 at St Matthew's, Bethnal Green.
He married Hannah Thompson 15 Aug 1832 St Stephen Coleman Street. On the 1841 census they are living, with their seven year old daughter Hannah, at the same address given for his family 56 years earlier on his uncles apprenticeship records, St John Street, Bethnal Green. His occupation is given as a silk weaver. From 1861 he is south of the river in Kent working as a brewer, later a master brewer and died there at Southborough, Kent 11 October 1885, again leaving a will.
This move was not unusual, the English silk industry had been in a long slow century long decline since the lifting of trade restrictions with France in the 1760's. It hit a particularly rocky patch in the 1820's, which it never full recovered from, and when further free trade legislation was passed in 1860 it faced virtually total collapse, at least in London. Around 90% plus left the industry at that time. The elderly ended up in the workhouses but the younger tried to find alternative work. Many of them did become publicans and brewers, my own Bellenger silk weaving ancestors did the same in this decade, I imagine because this was one business that was always thriving in Victorian London...beer shop on every corner etc. Before the rise of the Charrington mission and the abstinence movement around the turn of the century!
Hope that helps a bit, if you want me to have a look at the Rebelou family too let me know.
Regards
Richard
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Wow.. thankyou so much.
What fantastic information, I am so greatful to you for taking the time.
I am now inspired with all your information to get on and sort out my side of the family tree.
The Hannah Thompson you mentioned is my GGG Grandmother.
I am blown away and speechless in grattitude.
Many, many thanks
OFG
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No problem OFG, happy to help.
I realise I might be running a bit ahead of you here, but I did have a look into the family of your 4 x great grandmother Elizabeth Robelow/Robelou, while this was all still fresh in my memory, hope that is okay.
She was born 30 Mar 1786 and baptised 16 Jul 1786 at St Leonard's, Shoreditch, to William Robelou and Anne White, who had married at Saint Dunstan's,Stepney 13 Oct 1781.
As my above post William was baptised in the Huguenot churches, as 'Guillaume' the French form of his name at La Patente Spitalfields on 19 Aug 1760:
" Guillaume Robelou son of Thomas Robelou and Susanne Martin baptised 19 Aug 1760 by Monsieur Tavan, minister, Godparents Thomas Robelou and Judith Robelou, born 5 Aug 1760"
His parents had been married 1 November 1759 at St Matthew's, Bethnal Green. They had six children together, the first three baptised at La Patente, the last three at St Matthew's.
His father Thomas Robelou entered the French Protestant Charity Hospital in Bath Road, St Lukes, 'La Providence' in his old age. He applied there April 12, 1800 on grounds of ill health and infirmity. His petition describes him as 73 years old, a member of the French Church of London over 50 years, a silk weaver, son of Henry Robelou, grandson of Henry Robelou, religious refugee of Paris'. (Further family records at the Hospital give his wife as Susanna Martin Born May the 15th 1733 old Stile.) He was admitted 27 Sep the same year 1800 and remained until his death 15 January 1803.
From this information Thomas's baptism was fairly easy to find:
St Jean Huguenot, Spitalfields: "Thomas Roubelou, son of Henry, Baptised 27 November 1726 by Monsieur H. de Ste. Colome, Minister. Godfather Thomas Bufar. Godmother Marie Coussot. Born 9 Nov."
Henry Robelou and his wife Judith Moreau had two other children baptised at this church, and six at the near by Wheeler Street Huguenot congregation between 1725-1738. Three of his nine children sadly died in infancy and on their burials he is described as a silk weaver of Bethnal Green, though interestingly on his marriage to Judith, 1 October 1723, Saint Dunstan, Stepney, he was described as a musician. Both Henry and Judith were buried in Bethnal Green, in 1760 and 1763 respectively.
According to his son Thomas's later hospital record Henry was the son of another Henry a refugee of Paris but I do not believe this is accurate.
The only Henry I can find was baptised 1691 at Leicester Fields Huguenot Congregation, Westminster:
"Henry, son of Joseph Roblou and Catherine Girrard, of Burgundy, born 16 December 1691, baptised 27 December 1691, by Monsieur Le Blond, Minister, Godfather Pierre Lestrelin, Godmother Madamoiselle Anne la Roche"
Joseph and Catherine had arrived as refugees in London with two small children in Feburary 1681, Joseph joining the Threadneedle Street Church on the 7th of that month with a testimonial from the Huguenot Temple of Saint-Mandé, a suburb of Paris. Despite this the family were actually originally from the small village of Saint Julien-Du-Sualt, 80 miles further to the south just outside the town of Sens, and this may have been the source of Thomas's later confusion on this point over a century later.
In January 1682, they received charity help from the Threadneedle Street Church, Joseph described there as a labourer, and apparently were given a further grant to settle in Ireland two months later. If they did so, they were certainly back in London by 1691, which of course would make sense as Ireland was ravaged by war 1688-90.
I do believe their son Henry is the same man who married Judith Moreau in East London, as another son to the couple, Joseph Robelou Junior, married Madeleine Tavan, daughter of Gaspar Tavan, on 28 Feb 1714 in London.
A Jeanne Magdeleine Tavan stood as godmother to Henry and Judith Robelou's youngest daughter who was also named for her in Spitalfields in 1738. Minister Samuel Tavan of Spitalfields later baptised the first three children of Thomas and Susanne Robelou in the 1760's including your ancestor William. This enduring family link seems to indicate it is one and the same family.
Anything else I can help with let me know
Best regards
Richard
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Hi Richard,
Thankyou so much, you have given me such a headstart on this line of my tree. It's so facinating and i'm amazed you managed to unearth so much. I can't wait to show my mum what you've found, she will be thrilled.
It never ceases to amaze me where we all come from and just how much our ancestors moved around. Even when researching my husbands line who seemed to have come from the Blackisle north of Inverness and never moved I found a wild card name and realised it came from Norway,( only 3 hours by boat) and realized we were heading of on a tangent.
I really appreciate the time you have spent and cant thank you enough.
Cheers,
OFG
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;D hello everyone, I am looking for the St John (Jean) family they were also weavers of some description. They came to Spitalfeilds from Canterbury- I have linked names of Monnier, Hagnere and some others - I am looking for what they did in Spitalfields.. One family member lived in 'Hare Street' Bethnal Green.... can anyone lead me anywhere?
Fabulous thread this is..
thankyou so much
sj :)
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Hello "richarde1979"
I am new to Rootschat and unsure how it all works!! so I thought I would reply to this thread and see if we can connect.
I have just read your very interesting comments on the above topic, re the Phipps's of Bethnal Green. I wonder if you could help me.
We have a Thomas Phipps (1812-1854) who married Ann Mary Emerson (1816-1889) who both come from Bethnal Green and were weavers. We have been able to trace back the Ann Emerson line but have been unsuccessful with trying to find the parents of Thomas.
In the above thread you made the following comment...
"Peter and Elizabeth had several children baptised in East London between 1765-81. His son Robert Phipps, born 11 December 1776, baptised Christmas day 1776 at St Matthew's, Bethnal Green, was apprenticed aged 15 on 3 January 1792 as a silk weaver, to Matthew Read citizen and weaver. His elder brother Thomas had also been apprenticed to the same gentleman 7 years earlier. Their father Peter was described as a weaver on their records, of St John Street, Bethnal Green in 1785, and Mile End New Town in 1792. Peter died in 1827, leaving a will, and his adress at that time was Wilmot Street, Bethnal Green."
I am wondering if the Thomas that you mention above (probably born around 1770) is connected to our Thomas (b1812) (a couple of generations later!!)
We would be very grateful if you could provide us with any information that would confirm or otherwise the above connection.
Kind regards
Garry
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This article may be of interest.
"Forgotten weavers' housing of the Spitalfields silk district in London" by Peter Guillery, "Family Tree" magazine, 4th June 2019.
https://www.family-tree.co.uk/how-to-guides/find-uk-ancestors-by-region
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Thank you, that was very interesting!!
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Hi Richarde and Emmeline, I have a Charles Carter weaver, apprenticed to Peter Duthoit Spitalfields May 30 1720. I am researching my Carter family, Huguenot refugees fled France about 1685 to Spitalfields but all records pre 1794 with the marriage of my g,g,g grandfather James have been lost. Unable to trace parents or siblings of James. All we have to go on are various snippets of hearsay handed down by family members over the generations but suspect that not all reliable. Name supposedly changed from Cartier or Chartier to Carter at some stage before early 1700s.Would appreciate if you could let me know if you have come across these Carters in your research of the Duthoits or in any relevant documents. Other names also probably in the silk trade were Thomas Carter about 1765, Benoitt Carter about 1721, William and John Carter about 1770s
Tks & rgds, Dennis Carter
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Hello DENCAR48,
i have taken time to look through all the docuiments I have on the Duthoits but can find no mention
of the Carter/Chartier name. Sorry !
Emmeline.
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OK Emmeline, thanks for taking the time to check for me. The search continues !
Cheers, Dennis
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Just wondering if William Field, Weaver from Spitalfields c. 1750/70 was a Huguenot.
Regards,
Gary
Australia.
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Just wondering if William Field, Weaver from Spitalfields c. 1750/70 was a Huguenot.
Regards,
Gary
Australia.
William Field does not show up in a search of the Huguenot Society registers, so I suspect not.
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Thanks very much for that.
Gary.
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Thanks very much for that.
Gary.
You're welcome.
Just in case it's relevant, a 67 year old widow named Marie/Mary Field was an inmate of the Huguenot hostpital in 1836. She was a resident of 10 Wilkes Street, Spitalfields, and was the daughter of Jean Barbotau and granddaughter of Jean Barbotau, a refugee of Mars de Blaire, France. A bit of a long shot, but could she have married a son of William Field?
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Ah, the PDF search can be a bit weird on French documents, so I checked the Index of St. Jean, Spitalfields 1687-1827 and came up with:
FIELD. 1732, 3 Sept. Guilliaume, f. de Thomas, et d'Anne Ardelay; bap. par Mr. J.
d'Agneaux, Min. du St. Ev. P. Le pere. M. Magdellaine Jardelay. Ne 16 Aout
Could Guilliaume be your William?
Also three other children of Thomas & Anne:
FIELD. 1734, 15 Sept. David, f. de Thomas, et d'Anne Hardeley; bap. par Mr. J.
Barnouin, Past. P. Daniel David Pontardant. M. Marie Hardeley. N£ 24 Aout.
FIELD. 1738, II Juin. Thomas, f. de Thomas, et d'Anne Hardeley; bap. par Mr. J.
Manuel, Past. P. Nicholas I'Heureux. M. Anne Samson. Ne 26 Mai
FIELD. 1743, 28 Nov. Thomas, f. de Thomas, et d'Anne Hardeley; bap. par Mr. P.
Masson, Past. P. Le pere. M. La mere. Ne 9 Nov
So I may have been a little hasty saying that he was definitely not a Huguenot. This doesn't necessarily mean that he was, but he could have been.
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Hi whoever you are.
Thanks very much for the info & it is the right family. Still awaiting more info & will let you know.
Cheers,
Gary.
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Hi whoever you are.
Thanks very much for the info & it is the right family. Still awaiting more info & will let you know.
Cheers,
Gary.
You're welcome. I hope it helped.
Regards,
Steve.
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Sorry to hijack the thread...
I'm looking to see if the Vango family were Huguenots , and I have a couple of the Field family marrying into the Vango family.
In particular the variously spelt Marsey/Mercy Field(s) married Bartholomew Vango in 1732 in Fleet Prison records.
Wonder if there is a link with Gary's Field line?
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Sorry to hijack the thread...
I'm looking to see if the Vango family were Huguenots , and I have a couple of the Field family marrying into the Vango family.
In particular the variously spelt Marsey/Mercy Field(s) married Bartholomew Vango in 1732 in Fleet Prison records.
Wonder if there is a link with Gary's Field line?
Nothing like Vango in a general search of all of the Huguenot registers or a manual search in the St. Jean Spitalfields or Threadneedle Street indexes.
So unless its a misspelling or an anglisization of something else I doubt that they were Huguenots or Walloons. 1732 could very well be a case of Anglisization, especially where an English church or the Fleet is involved in a marriage.
As an example of Anglisization my ancestors were originally the De L'Epaule family from the Ardennes, France, Epaule literally translates as Shoulder, a name they gradually adopted as they began to be integrated into the Church of England in the late 17th and early 18th century. During the transition there were cases of the same person using both name during their lives.The French version has numerous different spellings in the Huguenot records, some barely recognisable.
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Thanks for taking the time to look. The name just seems to appear out of the blue in London, so maybe and anglicised version or misspelling as you say. Some have even said that it may have been Van Gogh, but I have heard that is not pronounced in the same way in it's native language.
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Further to this re the Vango family, does anyone know if many weavers in Spitalfields were from Norway.
Browsing though old newspapers I found a report of a landslide in the Parish of Vango in Christiania (now Oslo). Now I'm wondering if the Vango line came from there,and if the name was habitational in origin.
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Unfortunately no information on Bartholemew Vango on the Huguenots of Spitalfields site, just his name.
https://www.huguenotsofspitalfields.org/huguenotnames/vango-batholomew/ (https://www.huguenotsofspitalfields.org/huguenotnames/vango-batholomew/)
If you change your search on Ancestry to France, you will see that there are many Vango families listed.