RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: pwh on Saturday 09 February 13 01:33 GMT (UK)
-
I am hoping that some fellow rootschatters are researching the Tartakovar family. My connection
is the marriage of Evina Hart (B 1843 London D 1922 Melbourne) and Mitchell Tartakovar ( B 1844
London D 1929 Sydney). Her parents were Henry Hyam Hart (B 1807 London D 1880 Melbourne),
and Ann Mordecai (B 1811 London D 1894 Melbourne. His parents were Marcus Tartakovar and
Clarisse Fleurtte Hautville. They were married on 1/7/1863 at the Mictra Yiscael Synagogue in
Melbourne. They emigrated to Australia on the TRY , sailing from Bristol in October 1852,
arriving in Melbourne on 12/1/1853. On board were Mitchell, his parents and siblings, Alfred,
Samson and Sarah. Marcus had a store in Bristol St Ballarat and Mitchell and Alfred had a
store in Hay from 1869. Alfred was elected to the first municipal council in Hay in 1872. They
had ten children
Victor 1864-1940. Alexandra 1865-1939. Bertha 1867-1924. Adrienne 1869-1961.
Elanor 1871-1959. Isabella 1873-1956. Lillian 1875-1954. Henry 1876-1878.
Unnamed 1878-1878. Alfred 1881.
If this is of interest to anyone i would like to hear from them
PWH
-
Out of curiousity for a rare family name .......
In 1903 the Tartakover family consisted of Phidas(hd), Lilian(assistant) Mitchell(agent) and Violet(commercial traveller) living at 70 Nicholson St Fitzroy
with an Omelia Alexander Tartakover (domestic service ) at Clifton Street Swan Bunbury Western Australia.
There was another family of Tartakover consisting of Kate(hd) Ralph(solicitor) and Samuel(financier) at 8 Charnwood Road St Kilda .
The family is traceable through the electoral rolls until 1980 on anc , and must have changed the spelling of the name from when Paul was born in Australia
found as a boxmaker in Devon England circa 1851.
An interesting family indeed.......
-
Fast .....
I think you will find the PWH is looking for family that is interested in the line, they aren't asking for help
-
fully aware of that thankyou.....................................out of curiousity were the words used thankyou
-
There was a famous chess grandamser Dr Savielly Tratakover who was of Austrian Jewish heritage. He died only in 1956 age 69. He was an honorary Pole although he spoke no Polish. He was also a decorated Free French soldier under an alias.
-
I have recently discovered that a G G uncle of mine Isaac Sutherland married a
Bertha Esther Tartakover on the 1st of June 1907 in Victoria. Any background on this couple including occupations would be greatly appteciated. Sorry unable to read parents name on cert.
regards Martin
-
Hi Martin,
Here is Bertha's memoriam notice which names parents
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article3870847
Ros
-
Here is death notice for Elvina Tartakovar, mother of Bertha and wife of Mitchell
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1833786
Ros
-
M S Harmer
Henry Hyam Hart is my great great grand father. Your great great uncles
marriage to to Bertha Esther Tartakover makes us distant relatives by marriage. If you
have just discovered the relationship you are most likely to have little knowledge of Berthas
mothers Hart family history or that of her fathers family. I can correct both of those situations
in great detail. Please get in touch with me.
pwh
-
Hi pwh
The names Tartakover and Hart are new to us so any info would be of interest.
We are particularly interested in Isaac's marriage and his profession. From what we have found he was a journalist but need conformation as well as who for.
Also if you are interested we can give you some history on Isaac's family.
Regards Martin
-
Martin
Thanks for getting in touch. But first a question. There is a short reference to Isaac
Buchanan Sutherland in my family history being born in Glasgow in 1864 and marrying Bertha
in 1901 not 1907. So which is it? If you go back to to the first entry you will see that Berthas
mother was French. Here are Isaac and Berthas children.
Victor B 1864 D 19/12/1940 M Augusta Amelia Harris ( 1881-1964) 1903 1S, 2D
Adrienne Rachael, B 1869 Vic. D 1961 Vic. M Samuel Warren 1 D
Eleanor Hautiville, B 1871 Hay NSW, D 1959 Vic. M Fred Oscar Beckendorff 1894 1S
Lillien Fluerette, B 1875 Hay, D 1954 Carlton. MJohn James Markham in Hay 1908. 1D
Alfred (Arthur), B Hay 1881, M Dinah Davies.
His only child Theodore Benjamin was the most famous of the family. He was a national and
world class swimmer who represented Australia in the 1908 and 1912 Olympics. He was in
fact one the first two Australians to represent their country in officially recognized consecutive
Olympiads. I have found photos taken of him at the Olympic Games. The trove sites and
the AOC sites mention him
Elvina Hart came from a family whose roots i have traced back to 1743. Many of her
grand parents generation were among the early pioneers of Australia, especially in Melbourne
where they arrived in 1839. They had the first Jewish wedding in Victoria, the first
Jewish funeral and the second bar mitzvah in Victoria. Look up Asher Hart, Ashur Hart, Edward
Hart and John Hart on the Trove site. You will see how important they were in Australian
Jewish history. But more of that in other posts. And yes i would be interested in information
on the Sutherland family. There is a Sutherland from Caithess Scotland in my fathers tree.
Pwh
-
I have recently discovered that a G G uncle of mine Isaac Sutherland married a
Bertha Esther Tartakover on the 1st of June 1907 in Victoria. Any background on this couple including occupations would be greatly appteciated. Sorry unable to read parents name on cert.
regards Martin
and
Martin
Thanks for getting in touch. But first a question. There is a short reference to Isaac
Buchanan Sutherland in my family history being born in Glasgow in 1864 and marrying Bertha
in 1901 not 1907. So which is it? If you go back to to the first entry you will see that Berthas
mother was French. Here are Isaac and Berthas children.
Victor B 1864 D 19/12/1940 M Augusta Amelia Harris ( 1881-1964) 1903 1S, 2D
Adrienne Rachael, B 1869 Vic. D 1961 Vic. M Samuel Warren 1 D
Eleanor Hautiville, B 1871 Hay NSW, D 1959 Vic. M Fred Oscar Beckendorff 1894 1S
Lillien Fluerette, B 1875 Hay, D 1954 Carlton. MJohn James Markham in Hay 1908. 1D
Alfred (Arthur), B Hay 1881, M Dinah Davies.
His only child Theodore Benjamin was the most famous of the family. He was a national and
world class swimmer who represented Australia in the 1908 and 1912 Olympics. He was in
fact one the first two Australians to represent their country in officially recognized consecutive
Olympiads. I have found photos taken of him at the Olympic Games. The trove sites and
the AOC sites mention him
Elvina Hart came from a family whose roots i have traced back to 1743. Many of her
grand parents generation were among the early pioneers of Australia, especially in Melbourne
where they arrived in 1839. They had the first Jewish wedding in Victoria, the first
Jewish funeral and the second bar mitzvah in Victoria. Look up Asher Hart, Ashur Hart, Edward
Hart and John Hart on the Trove site. You will see how important they were in Australian
Jewish history. But more of that in other posts. And yes i would be interested in information
on the Sutherland family. There is a Sutherland from Caithess Scotland in my fathers tree.
Pwh
The Vic BDM online index has the marriage as 1901, and the reference number as 2484.
I cannot see how Isaac and Bertha were having children back in the 1860s
JM
-
According to the Vic BDM online index, Bertha Esther TARTAKOVER’s birth registration is 18494/1867, and she was born at St Kilda. Her parents are recorded there as Elvina HART and Michael TARTAKOVER. If this is the lass who married Isaac SUTHERLAND, then that list from Paul cannot be the children of Isaac and Bertha...
Perhaps it would be best if you both double check before much more is published on this public forum.
JM
-
Alfred (Arthur), B Hay 1881, M Dinah Davies.
His only child Theodore Benjamin was the most famous of the family. He was a national and world class swimmer who represented Australia in the 1908 and 1912 Olympics. He was in fact one the first two Australians to represent their country in officially recognized consecutive Olympiads. I have found photos taken of him at the Olympic Games. The trove sites and the AOC sites mention him
There are more birth registrations for Alfred Tartakover and Dinah - Hay at the NSWBDM in Australia - So not an only child?
TARTAKOVER THEODORE BENJAMIN 16346/1880 ALFRED - DINAH - HAY
TARTAKOVER AUGUSTUS M 10970/1882 ALFRED - DINAH - HAY
TARTAKOVER CELESTINE 14416/1886 ALFRED - DINAH - HAY
Amending, adding
TARTAKOVER ALBERT JOHN ABRAHAM 11255/1872 ALFRED - DINAH - HAY
TARTAKOVER FLEURETTE 12009/1873 ALFRED - DINAH - HAY
TARTAKOVER EUGENE H 12801/1875 ALFRED - DINAH - HAY
TARTAKOVER CATHERINE R 13463/1877 ALFRED - DINAH - HAY
In a census Augustus Mitchell Tartakover was born in Italy, New South Wales Australia in about 1881. In NZ Archives he then dies in Rotorua, New Zealand in 1964 (He was a Retired Wool Buyer). AM Tartakover's wifes name was Emily Ida Tartakover (Nee Walker) she died in 1974. According to NSWBDM Augustus Tartakover and Emily Walker were marrried in Sydney in 1913
4083/1913 TARTAKOVER AUGUSTUS M - WALKER EMILY I - SYDNEY
Where Did Dinah marry Alfred Tartakover?
-
"TARTAKOVER–DAVIES.—On the 28th ult., at the
Synagogue, Stephen-street, by the Rev. M. Rintel,
Alfred, of Hay, New South Wales, eldest son of M.
Tartakover, Esq., to Dinah, youngest daughter of
John Davies, Esq., Fitzroy. Adelaide and Sydney
papers please copy. No cards." - Trove Au 1871
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5850804
Ok: She was Dinah Davies and Alfred Tartakover was of Hay, in New South Wales Australia. I still think they had more (amended) children though
-
Isaac (1930) and Bertha (1924) both died without issue.
Married 1june 1901 Christ Church, South Yarra.
Also Isaac's middle name would have been Buchan not Buchanan, his mother's name was Mary Buchan
Regards
-
Eleanor Hautiville, B 1871 Hay NSW, D 1959
Lillien Fluerette, B 1875 Hay, D 1954 Carlton.
Pwh
Double checking birth registrations at the NSWBDM
*TARTAKOVER ELEANOR HAUTVILLE 11377/1871 (father) MITCHELL (Mother) ELVINA (registered in) HAY
TARTAKOVER ISABELLA BLANCHE 11916/1873 MITCHELL - ELVINA - HAY
*TARTAKOVER LILIAN FLORETTE 12379/1874 (Father)MITCHELL - (Mother) ELVINA - (Registered in) HAY
TARTAKOVER HENRY A 13390/1877 MITCHELL - ELVINA - HAY
TARTAKOVER UNNAMED 14538/1878 MITCHELL - ELVIRA HART -HAY
Think I'd be rechecking everything that happened in New South Wales through official government sources https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history-research/family-history-search.aspx
-
Isaac (1930) and Bertha (1924) both died without issue.
Married 1june 1901 Christ Church, South Yarra.
Also Isaac's middle name would have been Buchan not Buchanan, his mother's name was Mary Buchan
Regards
Makes sense
-
And to add to the confusion .... I cannot find any mention of Bertha's mother being French in this post, but I am certain that pwh is referring to this post when he says 'first entry' .
I think there may be a possibility of some generations being merged or overlooked or missed in the posted details.
JM
I am hoping that some fellow rootschatters are researching the Tartakovar family. My connection
is the marriage of Evina Hart (B 1843 London D 1922 Melbourne) and Mitchell Tartakovar ( B 1844
London D 1929 Sydney). Her parents were Henry Hyam Hart (B 1807 London D 1880 Melbourne),
and Ann Mordecai (B 1811 London D 1894 Melbourne. His parents were Marcus Tartakovar and
Clarisse Fleurtte Hautville. They were married on 1/7/1863 at the Mictra Yiscael Synagogue in
Melbourne. They emigrated to Australia on the TRY , sailing from Bristol in October 1852,
arriving in Melbourne on 12/1/1853. On board were Mitchell, his parents and siblings, Alfred,
Samson and Sarah. Marcus had a store in Bristol St Ballarat and Mitchell and Alfred had a
store in Hay from 1869. Alfred was elected to the first municipal council in Hay in 1872. They
had ten children
Victor 1864-1940. Alexandra 1865-1939. Bertha 1867-1924. Adrienne 1869-1961.
Elanor 1871-1959. Isabella 1873-1956. Lillian 1875-1954. Henry 1876-1878.
Unnamed 1878-1878. Alfred 1881.
If this is of interest to anyone i would like to hear from them
PWH
-
Hi Everyone following this thread
:D :D :D
:) There are quite a number of threads at RChat that involve pwh’s HART family, including Hyam Henry HART, brother of Elvina TARTAKOVER. I may have listed most of them at the following post back in 2014 … https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=692237.msg5361162#msg5361162
:) Here is a blog post that Mr Google found for me this morning
https://www.geni.com/people/Elvina-Tartakover/6000000007251925246
:) Here's a list of some Sutherland threads re Martin's family, and that may be helpful too. Likely there would be others too, as that's from 2113 ...
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=668985.msg5142331#msg5142331
JM
-
M S Harmer
I must apologise for my seniors moment . The people i mentioned are in fact
Berthas siblings.
pwh
-
majm
This i confusion came about because i did not proof read my post properly. Your
comments were quite correct and a timely reminder that Rootschat is a public forum.
pwh
-
MSHarmer
By looking at one of your old posts courtesy of majm i see there is a reference
to a John and Janet Sutherland in 1791 in or around Caithness. The Sutherland in my
fathers line would i think be around that time in Caithness. I do not know if there is a
Caithness link between our families but having the same family name in such a small place
should give some credence to the idea. You might also interested in the fact another Sutherland,
Dame Joan Sutherland has a family link to the same place.
Pwh
-
M S Harmer
Some online research came up with this information on the Tartakover name and
where it would have come from. The name is a topyonymic name relating to a town,
city or region. Two places are mentioned, Tartak in Poland and Tartakow in Galicia.
The German and Yiddish suffixes "over" and "ower" mean of or from. The city of Brody
in what was in Easter Galicia and part of the Austro-Hungerian Empire is named. It is now part of the Ukraine.
pwh
-
pwh
The copies of the marriage records and death records I have do confirm the link.
-
pwh
The copies of the marriage records and death records I have do confirm the link.
Which documents ... who, when, where, what, and of course how and why ... to join up those dots....
JM ;D
-
Marriage registration of Isaac Sutherland and Bertha Esther Tartakover, 1 June 1901, Christ Church, South Yarra. Isaac's parents James Sutherland and Mary Sutherland (Buchan).
Bertha's father Mitchell Tartakover.
Isaac's death cert. 20 January 1930, age 69, father Sutherland mother Buchan.wife Bertha Tartakover. No issue.
Bertha's death cert. 4 August 1924, age 54, husband Isaac Sutherland. No issue.
Items I left out were residents, cause of death witnesses were burried ECT
-
Marriage registration of Isaac Sutherland and Bertha Esther Tartakover, 1 June 1901, Christ Church, South Yarra. Isaac's parents James Sutherland and Mary Sutherland (Buchan).
Bertha's father Mitchell Tartakover.
Isaac's death cert. 20 January 1930, age 69, father Sutherland mother Buchan.wife Bertha Tartakover. No issue.
Bertha's death cert. 4 August 1924, age 54, husband Isaac Sutherland. No issue.
Items I left out were residents, cause of death witnesses were burried ECT
BUT
How do any of the above documents actually help you to validate/ confirm if you have a family connection to the 1791 SUTHERLAND connection that pwh wrote about ....
J M
MSHarmer
By looking at one of your old posts courtesy of majm i see there is a reference
to a John and Janet Sutherland in 1791 in or around Caithness. The Sutherland in my
fathers line would i think be around that time in Caithness. I do not know if there is a
Caithness link between our families but having the same family name in such a small place
should give some credence to the idea. You might also interested in the fact another Sutherland,
Dame Joan Sutherland has a family link to the same place.
Pwh
-
The parents of Jame's (Isaac's father) are James Sutherland and Janet Sinclair married 22 Nov. 1816 Harpsdale. Have cert.
Isaac's father James was born 23 Jan. 1831
Parents James Sutherland and Janet Sinclair.
Have cert.
-
Also Isaac's middle name would have been Buchan not Buchanan, his mother's name was Mary Buchan
Regards
I have not seen a document which gives this man the second name of Buchan.
Are you aware of the other man named Isaac Buchan SUTHERLAND in Victoria around the same time?
The Electoral Rolls show Isaac SUTHERLAND as various occupations including artist and inventor.
A search of the National Archives will bring up some of his applications for patent.
Sue
-
Yes, Sue is spot on :) Easily found both those Isaac chaps...
There is a birth indexed at VIC BDM online for an Isaac Buchanan SUTHERLAND, parents as Robert SUTHERLAND and Agnes CASHLEY, locality abbreviation given as LEIG. It is for 1864, ref #9507
There is a death indexed there too, Isaac Buchanan SUTHERLAND, mother as Agnes ASHLEY and father as Robert Buchanan SUTHERLAND, locality given as Malvern East. It is for 1939, #1392
AND there is a death indexed there that may be significant …. Isaac SUTHERLAND, father as SUTHERLAND, mother as BUCHAN, neither has a given name displayed. Locality as Richmond. It is for 1930, and the ref # 3112.
The parents of Jame's (Isaac's father) are James Sutherland and Janet Sinclair married 22 Nov. 1816 Harpsdale. Have cert.
Isaac's father James was born 23 Jan. 1831
Parents James Sutherland and Janet Sinclair.
Have cert.
So which of these people were ancestors of which Isaac SUTHERLAND?
JM
-
;D
William Alexander SUTHERLAND And Ethel Hannah PAYNE’s daughter, Gladys Ethel was born in District of Adelaide, South Australia. Her birth registration has the year as 1911. Their marriage was in Adelaide and for the year 1910. Gladys married Urwin Kempson HARMER in 1936, in District of Adelaide.
1928 death of William Alexander SUTHERLAND, District of Adelaide
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=554403.0
To me, the question is about William Alexander SUTHERLAND and how is he connected with pwh’s 1791 James Buchanan SUTHERLAND ....
I am sure Martin and Peter will have it all sorted before tomorrow morning... :) and will let us all know how those dots joined up....
JM
-
Here's a good starting point...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/87571008 1 Dec 1928. Chronicle ( Adelaide newspaper)
Obit for William Alexander SUTHERLAND, aged 83. born Inverness, Scotland.
JM
-
Wrong one our William Alexander died aged 53, in Gilberton Adelaide. 1936. Step brother to Isaac. Through Jame's second marriage to Martha Tulloch.
-
Wrong one our William Alexander died aged 53, in Gilberton Adelaide. 1936. Step brother to Isaac. Through Jame's second marriage to Martha Tulloch.
So there must have been quite a few chaps named William Alexander SUTHERLAND in Adelaide in the 1920s and 1930s ...
One died in 1937 #588/685
One died in 1936 # 584/4019
One died in 1928 #5078/275
1937 was aged 41 ... https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/41622787
1928 was aged 83 ...https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/29319629
JM
-
Hi All, here it is, next morning …
I am sure both pwh and MS well know my views on using official documents to validate information and to go back to earlier generations on family tree charts. Of course what any family history buff uses for their own purposes is up to them, but when sharing information on public forums, we need to use caution, we need to be responsible, we need to be confident that others can test the validity of our statements about people we may believe are our ancestors … Why … well perhaps because none of us has any knowledge of who will use that information now or at any time in the future.
I had expected that this morning there would be a lengthy post from Martin showing how he has verified that William Alexander SUTHERLAND, father of Gladys is descended from the 1791 James SUTHERLAND that pwh has mentioned, and that pwh would have replied to Martin showing that he either refuted, confirmed or sought further details so it would be 'Pending’ ....
Nothing ...
so I will be blunt ... there's nothing yet posted on this thread to confirm that William Alexander SUTHERLAND descends from the 1791 James, and there's nothing yet to confirm that pwh descends from that 1791 James either.
Martin mentioned that his William Alexander SUTHERLAND was step brother to Isaac Buchan SUTHERLAND … their father being James SUTHERLAND.
Did that James die in South Australia …. If so, doubtful if there would be much family history info on his d.c. but perhaps there will be an Obit or some IM notices available via Trove which may name all his children, from each marriage …… Perhaps the d.c. would be 200/409, an online index has the date as 26 Feb 1892, Gilberton, S.A.
Did that James migrate to South Australia … well there is an online index that has a chap by that name as arriving at age 21, departing Plymouth, Devon, England 16 June 1851, arriving Adelaide, S.A. 14 September 1851 – the index has his place of origin as Caithness, his occupation as Agricultural labourer. BUT … the question of course to me is … how to join the dots back from Martin’s William Alexander SUTHERLAND… or from Peter's Isaac Buchanan SUTHERLAND - likely husband of Emma (see earlier post re Vic BDM online index listing of two chaps named Isaac SUTHERLAND, one married to Bertha Tartakovar, and the other to Emma Stewart or Sinclair)...
So, from Bertha’s 1901 marriage cert, which is a Victorian BDM document, so very detailed, what is the exact information that that document records that her husband, Isaac SUTHERLAND gave about himself and about both his parents … If it is difficult to decipher, I am absolutely certain that RChat’s rules allow for a snip of the relevant section to be uploaded as an attachment.
JM
-
Firstly William Alexander Sutherland was born 12 Jan 1882 to a James' Sutherland and Martha Tulloch in Gilberton S.A.
James and Martha arrived in S.A. on board the Barque The Oakland's in 1877. This can be verified online.
I am also in possession of a journal written by Isaac's oldest brother William on their voyage to Australia from Glasgow. Isaac is mentioned in said journal along with elizabeth, James', Jessie (first marriage, Mary Buchan), Martha and David, (second marriage Martha Tulloch) As well as William Alexander Margaret Annie and John Donald were born in S.A.
-
Firstly William Alexander Sutherland was born 12 Jan 1882 to a James' Sutherland and Martha Tulloch in Gilberton S.A.
James and Martha arrived in S.A. on board the Barque The Oakland's in 1877. This can be verified online.
I am also in possession of a journal written by Isaac's oldest brother William on their voyage to Australia from Glasgow. Isaac is mentioned in said journal along with elizabeth, James', Jessie (first marriage, Mary Buchan), Martha and David, (second marriage Martha Tulloch) As well as William Alexander Margaret Annie and John Donald were born in S.A.
Please check your records, and look for Isaac's oldest brother as William .... also note that the Isaac SUTHERLAND on board that voyage was recorded as ENGLISH.
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/oaklands1877.shtml
Sutherland J, aged 45, a Compositor, with wife and three children.
Sutherland J, aged 19, Die-Sinker
Sutherland J, aged 13.
https://www.archives.sa.gov.au/passenger-lists-view/1877/
and the pdf of the image of the passengers disembarked …
https://www.archives.sa.gov.au/sites/default/files/documentstore/passengerlists/1877/GRG35_48_1_77-22_Oaklands.pdf
Sutherland: family
James, 45, Compositor , SCOTCH male
Martha, 35, SCOTCH female
Jessie, 6, a SCOTCH child
Martha, 5, a SCOTCH child
David, 1, a SCOTCH child
Sutherland : Single Men
James, 19, Die sinker, ENGLISH
Isaac, 13, ENGLISH
ADD
Also, the voyage was from Plymouth, Devon, England, not from Glasgow...
JM
-
Correction, the voyage started in Glasgow on board a ship called The Toward. The Toward travelled from Scotland to Plymouth. There was also a stop over in Ireland.
Why they say Isaac and James' is a mystery but I have come across this error before.
-
Correction, the voyage started in Glasgow on board a ship called The Toward. The Toward travelled from Scotland to Plymouth. There was also a stop over in Ireland.
Why they say Isaac and James' is a mystery but I have come across this error before.
How are you so sure it is an error. What document/s gives you confidence that that is 'your' Isaac.
JM
-
Familysearch has an online index for 1871 Scottish Census… it shows there are 11,585 entries for the surname SUTHERLAND on that set of 1871 records.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Asutherland~&collection_id=2028678
Perhaps this is that family at 152 Duke St, Glasgow…
James SUTHERLAND, 40, head (of household) married, born Edinburgh, a Printer Reader
Martha SUTHERLAND, 29, his wife, born Lochgilphead,
Elizabeth SUTHERLAND, 16, daughter, Milliner, born Edinburgh
James SUTHERLAND, 14, son, scholar born Glasgow
Isaac SUTHERLAND, 7, son, Scholar, born Glasgow
Jessie SUTHERLAND, 1, daughter, born Glasgow
Those ages are not exact matches, but …. Perhaps that is understandable if money was ‘tight’ and the shipping line was charging based on the age of the passengers to reflect the mess expenses.
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//research/census-records/street-indexes/1871/1871-glasgow.pdf According to that pdf, the enumeration book would be numbered 61, The Regn Dist would be 644-2
Here is a very long thread re a search on RChat for an Isaac SUTHERLAND, of Caithness. The Opening post mentions BUCHANAN and immigration to Australia in 1854.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=444205.0
Martin, in my opinion, the dots are simply NOT joining up, and they are so widely scattered. Glasgow is not anywhere near Caithness which was a county and it is still hundreds of miles from Glasgow, which is a city in a different county, and Edinburgh is a different city again, and is no where near either Glasgow or Caithness. So in the 1800s records there’s Caithness, and there’s Lanarkshire and there’s Midlothian to check through at least.
ADD
So from familysearch, there’s a birth showing for 27 June 1863 for an Isaac SUTHERLAND, parents as James SUTHERLAND and Mary BUCHAN… with birthplace as Glasgow. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ52-LFZ
Scotland’s people have a birth registration, just the one in the years 1863-1865 … for Isaac SUTHERLAND
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/search-our-records
What information is on that birth certificate that would show James SUTHERLAND who migrated to South Australia in 1877 as his father? .... the Dad's Occupation ... will be useful :) That still does not sort the 'ENGLISH' 13 year old lad on that same voyage... but it does put some more dots on the line between William Alexander SUTHERLAND and Isaac Buchan SUTHERLAND ....
JM
-
......
So, from Bertha’s 1901 marriage cert, which is a Victorian BDM document, so very detailed, what is the exact information that that document records that her husband, Isaac SUTHERLAND gave about himself and about both his parents … If it is difficult to decipher, I am absolutely certain that RChat’s rules allow for a snip of the relevant section to be uploaded as an attachment.
JM
-
His occupation was compositor. Married in Glasgow 29 March 1866
His father was a shoe maker. Mother's maiden name was Sinclair.
Just a little info I recently received from my cousin in Wagga who has had her Sutherland DNA researched our Sutherland and Sinclair lines seems to hail from the Caithness region.
-
His occupation was compositor. Married in Glasgow 29 March 1866
His father was a shoe maker. Mother's maiden name was Sinclair.
Just a little info I recently received from my cousin in Wagga who has had her Sutherland DNA researched our Sutherland and Sinclair lines seems to hail from the Caithness region.
So are you saying that you have a Scotlands Peoples birth certificate showing Isaac born 1863, and it has all the details for him, including his dad is noted on it as a compositor, and his grandad is detailed on it too.... and parents date of marriage .. what else is on that birth registration ....please check carefully
JM
-
Here is an INDEX listing for Martha TULLOCHs marriage to James SUTHERLAND on 30 March 1866.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTY4-Y4P
It is my understanding that the results of DNA tests offered by the family history websites are not yet able to positively identify any particular Scottish region for any person's DNA much less determine which particular surname belongs to what part of the DNA submitted for testing.
JM
-
Elizabeth SUTHERLAND, 16, daughter, Milliner, born Edinburgh
JM
Elizabeth I think would be this child who appears in the snip of information from the Biographical Index of South Australians.
SUTHERLAND, James, born 1831, Sct. Arrived 1877 Oaklands. Occ Compositor. Residence Adelaide, Gilberton. Religion Congregational. Married Martha b. c 1842 Sct. Chn. Eliz Constable ROBERTSON (c1855) Jas (c1858) Isaac(c1864)Jessie (c1871) Martha(c1872) David(c1876)
She of course became ROBERTSON upon her marriage in 1883
"ROBERTSON- SUTHERLAND, On the 10th April at Kilchatton Villa Gilberton, by Rev Osric Copland , Bolton Wm ROBERTSON to Elizabeth Constable SUTHERLAND , both of Adelaide.
Tues. 17th April 1883"
-
Interesting find Sue,
It has Elizabeth as ROBERTSON and you have found her likely marriage in 1883, in the 'right' locality .. but that BISA entry makes no mention of William Alexander, her brother born in that same locality in 1882. I wonder who provided the info?
JM
-
Firstly William Alexander Sutherland was born 12 Jan 1882 to a James' Sutherland and Martha Tulloch in Gilberton S.A.
James and Martha arrived in S.A. on board the Barque The Oakland's in 1877. This can be verified online.
I am also in possession of a journal written by Isaac's oldest brother William on their voyage to Australia from Glasgow. Isaac is mentioned in said journal along with elizabeth, James', Jessie (first marriage, Mary Buchan), Martha and David, (second marriage Martha Tulloch) As well as William Alexander Margaret Annie and John Donald were born in S.A.
Just to clarify
If there was a prior marriage for James SUTHERLAND, and Jessie was born in 1871 according to the likely census JM has offered, as well as the BISA information Then I think she was likely The child of Martha.
Sue
-
Jessie b. 15 March 1859 Glasgow, to James Sutherland and Mary Buchan.
Married a Atetas James Anderson Holmes 9 August 1900, Gilberton.
Martha b. 22 February 1872 Glasgow to James Sutherland and Martha Tulloch.
-
Jessie b. 15 March 1859 Glasgow, to James Sutherland and Mary Buchan.
Married a Atetas James Anderson Holmes 9 August 1900, Gilberton.
Martha b. 22 February 1872 Glasgow to James Sutherland and Martha Tulloch.
What document gives you that info about Jessie .... particularly her birth date and her mum's details ....
JM
-
From SP site, Mary Sutherland/Buchan died 1864 aged 42, 644/2271, High Church.
Same site, Jessie Sutherland b. 15 March 1859, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland.
Father James Sutherland
Mother Mary Buchan
Isaac b. 7 June 1863 High Church
Father James Sutherland
Mother Mary Buchan
Elizabeth Constable Sutherland
b.21 January 1855 Edinburgh
Father James Sutherland
Mother Mary Buchan
James Sutherland b. 8 March 1857
Glasgow, Lanark.
Father James Sutherland
Mother Mary Buchan
Elizabeth, James, Jessie, Isaac as well as Martha's two Martha and David are mentioned in the Journal of their voyage.
Martha had William A., Margaret A., And John D. In Adelaide.
-
Martin, two questions ....
:) have you downloaded all those records from Scotlands People? If so, which one of those has 'compositor' for the occupation of James.
:) have you the death cert for Isaac SUTHERLAND ... if so from it, how many years had he been in the colonies, what does it record for his origins and for his parents ...
JM
-
From SP, doesn't actually say compositor but proof reader.
Handwriting on death cert. not good but says 40 years in Vic. 5 years NSW, 6 years S.A.
-
So, which document has Proof Reader on it for James ....
And
If you take a snip of any document and upload as attachment to this thread I am absolutely sure that there are experienced RChatters willing to help decipher the 19th century handwriting.
Do you have the snipping tool as part of your accessories on your computer?
JM
-
His occupation was compositor. Married in Glasgow 29 March 1866
His father was a shoe maker. Mother's maiden name was Sinclair.
Just a little info I recently received from my cousin in Wagga who has had her Sutherland DNA researched our Sutherland and Sinclair lines seems to hail from the Caithness region.
Please be careful when posting, compositor and proof reader are both occupations in the printing / publishing industry,
JM
-
An occupation he continued here.
After enlarging Isaac's death cert the years in each state I quoted were correct. 40 Vic. 5 NSW and 6 S.A.
-
An occupation he continued here.
After enlarging Isaac's death cert the years in each state I quoted were correct. 40 Vic. 5 NSW and 6 S.A.
Right so I gather James Sutherland changed from Proofreading to become a compositor operating a machine ....
and
what info about Isaac and his parents on that d.c.
And well there are actually a number of questions posed that you have not yet answered ... all part of joining the dots to help link your William Alexander SUTHERLAND to a possible ancestor that may be on Peter's tree....
JM
-
Here is a very informative obituary to James SUTHERLAND
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204472645 26 February 1892 Evening Journal.
twice married,
five sons, four daughters (one married).
JM
-
I have finally found Elizabeth SUTHERLAND aged 22, a Dressmaker, SCOTCH on that 1877 passenger list that I posted a live link to.
Here it is again
https://www.archives.sa.gov.au/passenger-lists-view/1877/
and the pdf of the image of the passengers disembarked …
https://www.archives.sa.gov.au/sites/default/files/documentstore/passengerlists/1877/GRG35_48_1_77-22_Oaklands.pdf
I cannot find anywhere in this or other threads where Martin has mentioned that digitised resource - passenger list - as the primary source document for his migrant SUTHERLAND family. I have not searched for Isaac SUTHERLAND's intercolonial movements, as I anticipate that Martin has previously fully researched that prior to finding that connection to Bertha TARTAKOVER. :)
JM
-
Already have these articles, thanks.
One thing I did over look was the names and occupations of Isaac's and Bertha's father's on their marriage cert
James Sutherland, Reader
Mitchell Tartakover, Gentleman.
It also names Mary Buchan as Isaac's mother
-
Already have these articles, thanks.
One thing I did over look was the names and occupations of Isaac's and Bertha's father's on their marriage cert
James Sutherland, Reader
Mitchell Tartakover, Gentleman.
It also names Mary Buchan as Isaac's mother
And so looking back at reply # 26 and at Martin's latest post.....
...
On that m.c. from 1901, only that document..... exactly what does that document record about Isaac .... his names /age/ place of birth/ any previous marriages etc/ occupation/ usual address/
What exactly does that same 1901 document record for the info that Isaac provided about his parents .. .. for example ... does it show Isaac's father as deceased? Does it show Isaac's mother as deceased?
In other words, how does the m.c. help join those dots back to Caithness and the 1791 SUTHERLAND connection....
JM
-
Isaac, 36, Glasgow, no previous marriage, bachelor, occupation artist.
Bertha, 27, St Kilda, spinster
-
James and Martha arrived in S.A. on board the Barque The Oakland's in 1877. This can be verified online.
I am also in possession of a journal written by Isaac's oldest brother William on their voyage to Australia from Glasgow. Isaac is mentioned in said journal along with elizabeth, James', Jessie (first marriage, Mary Buchan), Martha and David, (second marriage Martha Tulloch) As well as William Alexander Margaret Annie and John Donald were born in S.A.
Just to clarify
If there was a prior marriage for James SUTHERLAND, and Jessie was born in 1871 according to the likely census JM has offered, as well as the BISA information Then I think she was likely The child of Martha.
Sue
Jessie b. 15 March 1859 Glasgow, to James Sutherland and Mary Buchan.
Married a Atetas James Anderson Holmes 9 August 1900, Gilberton.
Martha b. 22 February 1872 Glasgow to James Sutherland and Martha Tulloch.
From SP site, Mary Sutherland/Buchan died 1864 aged 42, 644/2271, High Church.
Same site, Jessie Sutherland b. 15 March 1859, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland.
.
So just to clarify.
The mother you claim for Jessie was dead in 1864
Jessie was born in c1871.
The 6 year old on the ship as listed above named Jessie and listed on the census of 1871 is NOT the child of Mary BUCHAN, but of the second wife Martha. I think you should take note of this in the interests of accuracy.
I am also curious as to the author of the journal you mention above.
If William was born in SA in 1882, then I do not know how he wrote such a journal. Was it James who wrote it?
-
Death in New Zealand
1942/24359 HOLMES
Jessie Sinclair
Aged 73 years
Death Notice
HOLMES, Jessie. On June 20 at Otaki New Zealand Jessie beloved wife of Aretas J HOLMES and loving sister of Mrs ROBERTSON and Misses M. and M. A. Sutherland, Gilberton.
Thurs 25th June 1942
Adelaide Advertiser.
Sue
-
Sorry typo on Jessie's details, should have read 15 March 1859, Glasgow, Lanark.
And also journal written by James Sutherland b. 8 March 1857. Oldest son to James Sutherland and Mary Buchan. First marriage.
-
Sorry typo on Jessie's details, should have read 15 March 1859, Glasgow, Lanark.
And also journal written by James Sutherland b. 8 March 1857. Oldest son to James Sutherland and Mary Buchan. First marriage.
Please recheck ... you have already given that dob for Jessie, it is not the right one to be the girl on the voyage in 1877 ... and you have already given that William wrote the journal.... does the journal actually say that its author is William or James or someone else ... and does it actually also say that author was born 8 March 1857 ....
JM
-
Sorry typo on Jessie's details, should have read 15 March 1859, Glasgow, Lanark.
And also journal written by James Sutherland b. 8 March 1857. Oldest son to James Sutherland and Mary Buchan. First marriage.
Martin
The first Jessie must have died or moved away.
She Did Not come to Australia
You can see the age at death of the Jessie Who Came to Australia
I have given it to you.
You need to correct your information to be accurate.
Sue
-
From the online INDEX at familysearch
Here is a possible birth with parents as James SUTHERLAND and Martha TULLOCH
Jessie SUTHERLAND, 27 February 1870, High Church, Glasgow, Lanark
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ3L-4LD
The above info is ONLY my transcription of an ONLINE INDEX so if this were my family I would be saving pennies to download the actual record of that birth from Scotland’s People to check if there’s the usual Scottish depth of detail on their birth registrations. …. Occupation of father, street address etc etc etc….
JM
-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQVN-5ZC
This is an entry on an index noting a James SUTHERLAND was born 8 March 1857. Yes, it has the 'right' names for the parents, but it is only an index, the actual document will hopefully give info about the occupation for the father ... and again, Scotland's People should have the document.
JM
-
The Glasgow Daily Herald, Tuesday, December 27, 1864.
Page 3
DEATHS
….
At 152 Duke Street on the 25th instant, Mary Buchan, wife of Mr James Sutherland.
The National Library of Australia has, for many years, provided online access to holders of their Readers Cards. See:
https://www.nla.gov.au/getalibrarycard/
and
https://www.nla.gov.au/app/eresources/
and
https://www.nla.gov.au/app/eresources/item/4505
That address is same as the 1871 Census address. :)
JM
-
Thanks for that. Also you had me thinking about Jessie so I dug out an old address book that belonged to my g grandmother Ethel Hannah Sutherland nee Payne, and as luck would have it she had Jessie's birthday 27 Feb 1870. So thankyou.
-
You are welcome.
When John Donald SUTHERLAND died of wounds at Gallipoli, his mother Martha was his NOK.
It was not until 1969 that his nephew Donald Ross STHERLAND applied for the Gallipoli medal due to the family.
The letter in the file mentions his (Donald Ross's) twin brother Harold James (the pair were born in 1917 according to SA indexing) and of course his sister Gladys Ethel HARMER, nee SUTHERLAND born 1911.
Marr.
1936 372/4124 HARMER Urlwin Kempson
SUTHERLAND Gladys Ethel
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/
Sue
-
All known info.
Gladys was my grandmother which is where a lot of my info has come from.
Thanks again.
-
All known info.
Gladys was my grandmother which is where a lot of my info has come from.
Thanks again.
Yes, that too is known info.
Trouble is, Martin, there seems to be so much you have incorrectly or points of confusion, that one works onward in an effort to get a clear a well-defined family picture.
Very hard to know what to offer in the way of help and what you have and do not have because some of what you do have is unproven or outright mistaken.
Sue
-
Yes, good to know your Gran's birthday book has been found and has her husband's sister in it.
And, Sue is spot on, very difficult for anyone to help you as so much turns out to be unproven or worse, it contradicts other info already provided.
And as Sue also wrote.... I too add "You are welcome" ... thank you for your thanks.
I do caution though, please do be careful with the details being posted .... dont rely on indexes, aim for the document they point to. And when a question is asked, if you dont know the answer, or if the question does not make sense, just say so. And perhaps most importantly, remember it is a hobby about our dead ancestors ... they don't judge us, but the living can....
JM
-
Hello pwh and Martin,
majm gave you the link to the OAKLANDS passenger list a few days ago. Did you both look carefully at it? If not, you should. Human interest bits put flesh on old bones and make familiy histories more than just boring lists of names and dates.
Elizabeth Constable Sutherland met her husband-to-be, Bolton William Robertson, on that voyage.
He's there, in the "cock pit" with the other single adult males including two of Elizabeth's brothers. No matter how the bunks or hammocks were assigned they would have lived closely adjacent to each other for the duration of the voyage, there not being much of an alphabetical gap between their surnames, nor much of a numerical one between their ticket numbers.
Elizabeth was in the "hen cabin" along with the other adult single women, while the parents and younger siblings were in the family quarters. (The shipping companies were very keen on observing "the proprieties": indeed one of the questions to be signed off at the port of disembarkation was of the nature of "Was the segregation properly enforced?")
The people on the OAKLANDS constituted a small village where everyone got to know everyone. That voyage took 98 days - ample time for mutual attraction to bloom between Bolton and Elizabeth - ample time for her parents to observe him and form an opinion. True, he still had to find a job in Australia and accumulate some savings before they could even think of marrying, but the seeds of that 50+-year marriage were sown on the OAKLANDS.
Do either of you have any photos of Elizabeth that you would share? Any diaries or letters in which she refers to visits with her inlaws? Bolton's elder brother had emigrated to Australia a few years earlier and was already married there. Her inlaws are the subject of my interest.
Cheers,
Westoe
-
Hi Westie
Thanks, I have that info on Bolton.
According to the journal i have written by James Sutherland JNR during their voyage they all seem to be together below decks, almost as if in a cabin, he talks about going below to retire after a walk on deck only to see most of his family sea sick including Elizabeth, even mentions his mother with half her clothes off but unable to proceed any further due to sea sickness.
Saddly we don't have any photos, if there was any they may have been in the family bible but according to my aunt a lot of photos have gone missing over the years. Next time I see her I'll ask again.
Regards
Martin