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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Monmouthshire => Topic started by: harvo on Thursday 07 February 13 20:48 GMT (UK)
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I have tried Tredegar Library who keep Monmouth Newspapers but this produced nothing
I am searching for the Inquest report into the
Death of JOHN MALSON who died 15 February 1853 aged 25 He was ---- "Accidentally Killed by the Spindle of a Steam Engine" coroner W Brewer
The death certificate also states the death was not registered until 29 March 1853
Could anyone please help? Thank You
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Hi Harvo,
The only mention of John Malson I can find is for a different John Malson, the grand uncle of your John ( brother of grandmother Hannah) who was robbed at his home in Abingahll by Margaret Macdonell and Margaret Davis. They got six months in jail each. Gloucester Trinity Sessions, reported in the Cheltenham Chronicle 7 Jul 1853.
I'm guessing you've already enquired at Gwent Archives. I understand that Coroners were not required to preserve their reports, but sometimes forwarded them for the attention of their county record office.
vv.
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Hi Veeblevort,
I had given up hope of someone picking up on my request,i am most grateful for you doing so
I did contact Gwent county Archives ,in 1993,their collection of Inquisitions date from 1872 onwards,they did however send a copy of the voucher of John Malsons inquisition but it only states where it was held the coroner and expenses incurred £1 7s 6d. They then suggested Newport Library and a search of the Monmouthshire Merlin and Beacon ,sadly nothing was found,and that is still the situation.
I am intrigued by your knowledge of how you believe my Malson Family stacks up and in what you say is John's Grandmother Hannah ,i wonder if you have proof of this fact ,as PROOF has of yet evaded me .I am not saying you are wrong as this is who we believe maybe is his Father William's Mother,and therefore John's Grandmother,but what proof ,as her married name was Thomas?would love to know.
I did not know about the robbery on John Malson ,brother of Hannah ,and will definitely check out this info Thank You.
Regards Harvo
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Him Again ,
Sorry it was not until after i had written my last post that i realised that we had communicated before on Forest Of Dean Site [which was down yesterday,but running today].
Reminding myself of your connection Johns elder Brother James and wife Fanny ,i can see where your interest is ,anyway the question still stands ,have you solved the problem of their grandmother ?
May i ask have you a copy of the Robbery on "Great Uncle John"?,as the site for newspapers is subscription ,would love a copy if you have.Do you have my E/mail or Davids he will send it on if you have .
Thanks Again Harvo
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Hi Harvo,
Perhaps in time as more and more newspapers are digitised, something will
come to light.
Not sure how much you already know, or what your standard of proof is. For
myself, I don't consider any document to be proof, preferring to think of
levels of confidence, which diminish with every generation back in time.
So for a start, from his burial record, William was born approx 1860-72 = 1788.
Searching all parishes in the Forest of Dean + or - 20 years (being over generous)
provides only three candidate baptisms:
1. Abenhall 1774 Mar 6 William MALSON to Richard and Susannah.
2. Abenhall 1788 Jun 29 William Jenkins MALSON base child to Hannah. Date is good++
3. Abenhall 1797 Mar 12 William Malson to Richard and Hannah.
No 1. Is ruled out because he went on to marry Catharine Gibbs with whom
he had six children. Both deaths were registered by their daughter Martha
Harris. His age on the death cert ties in with his baptism date.
No 3. Is ruled out because he went on to marry Anne Smith (at Hope Mansell
1825 Feb 13 witnessed by his brother Thomas and Hannah Gregory, the two of
whom married a few months later). He and Anne had seven children in Abenhall.
This leaves number 2, who I believe to be your William, presumably the
offspring of a mysterious Mr Jenkins. Hannah did not as far as I can
tell from newspaper reports of court proceedings go after him for support
for William as some ladies did at this time. You are right that Hannah was a
Thomas, as she later married a John Thomas (Newland 1791 Jun 12) witnessed by
Richard Malson (she had a brother and a father of that name).
When your William married Sarah Newton Hunt (Abenhall 1821 Mar 17), he dropped
the Jenkins middle name, but the clue is in the witnesses - one was Hannah
Thomas who I take to be his mother. The other was Richard Lowe who also
witnessed the marriage of Hannah's brother Richard to Hannah Yearsley. Twenty
years later at the 1841 census Wm. & Sarah were living at Lady Grove, Abinghall
with the two youngest of the five children known to me, and in the same dwelling
as a separate household were Richard Lowe with his daughter Hannah Lowe, and his
grand-daughter Elizabeth Lowe. Elizabeth married another William Malson, the son
of couple number 1 above, and my 2G GF. Pause for a chorus of Duelling Banjos.
If you have most of the information above, what may be giving you cause for concern
is the baptism record itself. The BTs say MASON but the baptism register says MALSON.
Further, Familysearch have it as MASON, but I do not know if they used the BTs or
the register. www.forest-of-dean.net transcribe it as 'unclear - MALSON or MASON'.
It looks to me as though the 'l' was inserted in the surname later, which would
explain why the BTs differ.
I will attach the relevant baptism line and just the surname, so that you can see for
yourself. It might be worth you posting one or both to the deciphering board here. I
haven't done so because it's not in my main line, and my mind is already made up.
Sorry to ramble on at such length. I don't know if it will help or just muddy the
waters even further. I'll answer your follow up question in a separate post.
vv.
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Hi again,
Re your reply #3, yes, you have deduced the connection of our two
families via the marriage of James & Fanny, but we would be related
by blood even if they had never met, since they were second cousins.
I can hear those banjos again. :)
Incidentally, whoever posted the migration of that couple to the
USA in the migration index at the FoD site missed the fact that the
family travelled in two parties in separate years. Let me know if you
don't have the details.
Have I solved it? Well, I think so, for the reasons outlined above,
although the evidence is not compelling, I can say, 'If I've chosen
the wrong baptism, show me the right one - you can't'. This plus the
presence at his wedding of his mother, and the man who witnessed the
marriage of his mothers brother is quite enough for me, together with
the baptism date being spot on, and the actual baptism image which I
am inclined to trust far more than an unknown transcriber's opinion.
There are many Rootschatters visiting the deciphering board whose skills
are known to me, and I am confident they can give you an unbiased and
highly expert opinion if you are unsure.
Did you notice by the way that in the next entry in the baptism register,
a Mr. & Mrs. Jenkins presented their daughter? Let's hope Mrs Jenkins
couldn't read else there might have been some hard questions asked. ;D
I didn't take a copy of the newspaper article as its not my direct line,
but if you have a full subscription to FindMyPast, you can now access the
newspaper archive completely free via FindMyPast, otherwise via the FindMyPast purchased
credits system, which might be better for you than the two day deal
which the newspaper archive offer (or used to - I'm not up to date on that).
In this case, there was no more detail than I gave you.
I don't have your email. I last emailed David at Christmas, but it bounced.
Don't know whether his mailbox was full, closed down, or whether he has a new
email address.
For comparison purposes, I will attach an image of the surname MASON, from the
same page of the register, by the same writer, two years earlier, and there is
a story about that entry too, but enough for now.
vv.
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Me Again,
Thank you for your posts and input ,David did send me a copy of the parish record you found ,we were ready to accept the entry of William Jenkins Malson even though the "L" seems to have been added as an afterthought. As you say find another William bapt 1788,pity he did not stick with the Jenkins as this would have clinched it .
We became unsure of that entry after noticing 2 years earlier 1786 there had been a baptism entry for a "Nancy base child of Hannah Mason" [not altered to Malson],is this just coincidence or the same person ?
Sadly in this time scale there are no other means like the census which would clarify the issue and although i have known that Hannah Thomas was a witness at Williams Marriage ,she must surely have close connections ,there is sadly no other info available to prove that this is his Mother .
I am most grateful for your input and help ,and if you can think of anything else it would be most welcome
My thanks Harvo
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Hi Harvo,
I understand your concern about the alteration, although I don't see why
a priest would change a baptism entry, except to correct it.
Ah, you noticed the 1786 baptism, and yes, I think it's the same person.
It becomes a little clearer if you follow it through to see what happened
to Nancy.
I said there was a story behind it. :)
This is the same Hannah, baptising Nancy (Abenhall 1786 Jun 11),
and I believe that the priest simply repeated the mistake when baptising
William. As a single mother, Hannah probably had Nancy with her when
baptising William, and Nancy's entry was near the top of the page he was
writing on, which he could see, consciously or not.
So. What happened to Nancy MASON/MALSON?
Searching every parish in the Forest for a marriage or burial for Nancy MALSON
comes up empty.
Searching every parish in the Forest for a marriage or burial for Nancy MASON
comes up empty.
I believe this is because Nancy was raised as a THOMAS, for which all we have
of relevance is a burial at Arlingham 1823 Nov 26, aged 37. 1823-37 = 1786,
the year 'our' Nancy was baptised, however, there is no baptism anywhere in
the Forest for a Nancy THOMAS within five years of 1786. Therefore I believe
that this burial is that of Nancy MASON/MALSON.
Finally, if you search for a female MASON marrying a THOMAS, you won't find it,
so my assertion is that Nancy "THOMAS" was born to a MALSON mother not a MASON.
We can only speculate as to why William's baptism entry was changed. Perhaps
he came asking for proof of age for some purpose, and the entry was checked
and amended, or perhaps it was checked in contemplation of his marriage at
the same church. Nancy did not marry, and died in a different parish, so her
baptism entry was probably never looked at again until we came along.
vv.
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Hi Again,
All very plausible,i had also looked for a marriage /death for this Nancy but could not find either .
John Thomas who Hannah married in Newland 1791 must have been a very understanding man to bring up two base born children along with those of his own that followed ,don't you think.Or one wonders if she left these two with her parents ,we had this happen in a different branch of the family, not Malson,when the mother married,this was shown in a census return as he was living with his grandparents.
Oh for some sign between 1788 and 1821 when William was born and married.
Thank you so much for all your input ,David is watching this and sends his regards
My Best Wishes Harvo
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Hi Harvo,
Oh dear. 'very plausible' isn't exactly a gold star. ;D ;D
Yes, John's an unknown quantity, and with a name like that,
we may never learn much about him.
None of the three THOMAS's appear to have left a will, so no
help there. I can't find a reasonable burial date for Hannah
at least within the Forest.
I wondered if Hannah had any support from the parish, but there
is nothing to be found for her as MALSON. There is an Overseers
record for a Hannah THOMAS, Abenhall but sadly not until 1825.
(Gloucester Archives Genealogical Database ref P220 OV 3/2/77).
My main stumbling block in getting to grips with your problem
is that I am not clear why the baptism of Nancy is an issue.
At the moment, I am unsure as to how I can now help, but once
you and David have had the opportunity to confer, and either
find flaws in my reasoning, or come up with other questions,
perhaps we will be able to progress, so do let me know your
thoughts, or any conclusions you reach.
Regards, and to David also. :)
vv.
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Me Again,
With Regard to Hannah Thomas[Malson],John her husband was buried 1836 aged 78 Abenhall,in 1841 she was living alone in Plump Hill aged 80[all her siblings became octoganarians ,lets hope it was passed down the genes?].
Some time ago i was in touch with a Sue Greene in New Zealand who's family she had traced back to Hannah through her son John 1797 .At the time i only had three legitimate children for Hannah and John Thomas 1763 ,but this Sue had another two Daughters Ann1801 and Susannah 1804 she was going to send me more info but never did .However she had some years previously been in touch with descendants who lived in Bristol and she had Johns children born in Bristol .
The point i am getting at as Hannah's death is not recorded in Abenhall and district maybe she spent her final years in Bristol and may be buried there ?
Best Wishes Harvo
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Yes, none of the Hannah Thomas burials anywhere in the Forest appear to be hers. Unfortunately,
between 1841 and 1858, there are four Hannah Thomas deaths in the Bristol registration district,
and as long as you do not accept Hannah as your ancestor, possibly a waste of money following up.
vv.
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Harvo,
Just some final thoughts about where you go from here. This topic
has had more than 300 views and nobody is joining in, probably
because we are so far off your headline subject that it is not
relevant to Monmouthshire researchers, so I would respectfully
suggest a post on the Gloucestershire board linking to this, with
a different subject, as I know more than one MALSON researcher
who watches that board.
Also, have you considered asking Rootschatter tephra to organise
a Scavenger Hunt for you? Remarkable results seem to be the norm,
because so many skilled researchers join in.
Regards,
vv.