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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: RJP75 on Tuesday 05 February 13 14:06 GMT (UK)
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Looking for some assistance on the above. He married Mary Carlisle (approx 1840-1920) probably 1860ish and they had a daughter Selina Spence born in Belfast in 1876 and sadly thats all i know about about William and Mary who would have been my 2nd great grandparents. Any help would be gratefully appreciated.
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Hi
Have you checked the Irish 1901/1911 which is free on www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search
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If they married from 1864 onwards - finding their marriage and getting a copy of their marriage cert may help trace their parentage
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Hi,
The couple were married in Berry Street Presbyterian Church, Shankill, Belfast in 1870. The fathers' names were John Spence and James Carlisle.
Regards
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Hi,
The couple were married in Berry Street Presbyterian Church, Shankill, Belfast in 1870. The fathers' names were John Spence and James Carlisle.
Regards
Thanks very much for that.
Can i be nosey and ask where you found this out?
I guess i can add John and James to my tree. Thanks once again.
Regards
RJP75
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Hi,
I have sent you a personal message. I also found that your couple had another daughter, Mary, on 14 Mar 1875. This can be found by doing a parent search on the familysearch.org site.
Regards
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Dear RJP75 - My gg grandfather was also named William Jon Spence. He was born in May 1805 in Toberagnee, Co. antrim, and married in 1832 in the Non-subscribing Presbyterian Church in Templepatrick. I have to wonder if my William could be an uncle to your William John Spence. Do you have any info on John's siblings, Kingskerwell?
Peggy
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Sorry Peggy, afraid not.
Regards
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Spence isn't that uncommon a surname.
If they married from 1864 onwards - finding their marriage and getting a copy of their marriage cert may help trace their parentage
Civil registration of Catholic marriages started in 1864 but non-Catholic marriages from 1845 onwards.
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There is a Selina Spence who married Alfred Edward Dinely in St. Annes CoI in 1898 , here they are in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Victoria/Joseph_Street/1222245/
...and 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Victoria__part_of_/Parkgate_Avenue/231519
Is this couple relevant?
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There is a Selina Spence who married Alfred Edward Dinely in St. Annes CoI in 1898 , here they are in 1901:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Victoria/Joseph_Street/1222245/
...and 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Victoria__part_of_/Parkgate_Avenue/231519
Is this couple relevant?
Thanks Gaffy, yes its certainly relevant to me as Alfred Edward and Selina would have been my great-grandparents and i'd already seen these entries on the censuses. I am now trying to work back from Selina as i've come across a tonne of information relating to the Dineley clan going way back.
Many thanks.
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Dear RJP75 - My gg grandfather was also named William Jon Spence. He was born in May 1805 in Toberagnee, Co. antrim, and married in 1832 in the Non-subscribing Presbyterian Church in Templepatrick. I have to wonder if my William could be an uncle to your William John Spence. Do you have any info on John's siblings, Kingskerwell?
Peggy
Hi Peggy13. I have established a genetic link to the William Spence you referenced in this comment via trees on Ancestry.
I am a Spence, from Belfast! I have traced my paternal line back to Andrew Spence b abt 1860. His two marriage certificates listed his father as William John Spence (farmer). I have been unable to confirm where Andrew came from via online records. I have been unable to visit PRONI because I now live in London.
I understand your william Spence 1805 - 1890 emmigrated to Canada from Toberagnee. I also know his son William lived in Belfast for a short while w/o his wife, she joined him later or went home to give birth. All before they emmigrated.
You can probably see where I am going with this. Given the genetic link, one hypothesis I am playing with is that my Grt Grt Grandfather Andrew Spence was infact illigitimate, fathered by William when he was working in Belfast, possibly seperated from his wife.
You metion in your comment William was called William John Spence. Can you confirm this as I have found no records of William John Spence from Toberagnee, only William.
I would be super keen to hear back from you as this is a significant brick wall for me.
Thankyou.
Mark Spence.
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I have found his name as William Jon Spence online athough I only have William Spence. What information do you have that he lived in Belfast before emigration? I don't have an Ancestry subscription so curious as to which tree you found a genetic link on.
Peggy
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Hi Peggy,
I have since edited my comment as it is actually the son of William Spence 1805 also William Spence who lived in Belfast. It looks like he and his wife emmigrated later.
Someone on the Ezekiel David Spence line. A son of William Spence.
Another theory I have is that Andrew is a legitimate son of William Spence but chose to stay behind as he was older.
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I see. Ezekiel David Spence is a son of William Jr, son of my William. My William was married Mar 27, 1832 and had William Jr Apr 15, 1834. William Jr was married Oct 18, 1855.
Peggy
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Where did you find the marriage record for William Spence Sr?
It would be good to trace back the source of the William John Spence nomenclature. Where did you come across it?
William Jr married before Andrew was born. It could be that William Jr was Andrrew's father but w/o documentary evidence it is difficult to prove. Andrew having been born before births were formerly registered.
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I originally found the marriage record for William Sr. on familysearch. I wrote to Proni and after paying them $30 Canadian, they confirmed the marriage date via email. He was married in the Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church in Templepatrick.
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OK. The marriage predates formal registry, was it a church record? Did it mention anything about their parents?
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I did not receive a paper copy of the marriage. I was told that I would need permission from the NSP church in Templepatrick for that. However, I was also told that there was no further info on the record so no parents. The record simply says 27th March 1832 William Spence to Barbara Baillie Ballyutoag/Ballyutogue which is possibly his place of residence at the time.
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Aha. So this is interesting info. Templepatrick non-subscribing presbyterian church is still there. Seems to be one of the oldest Presbyterian congregations in Ireland.
Ballyutoag is a townland
https://www.townlands.ie/antrim/belfast-upper/templepatrick/ballyutoag/
William Jr 'married' in Antrim Registry Office. This would have been because marriages by the aforementioned church were not legally recognised. It seems plausible he married there as well.
I am going to contact them to see what other Spence family records they have.
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I was in contact with Rosalind Taggart a couple weeks ago regarding the birth/baptism of William Sr. in May 1805 and was told that they have no records from the 1800s for the Old Presbyterian Church in Templepatrick. This is the same as the Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church of Templepatrick. that is puzzling since Proni confirmed the marriage date in 1832.
Let me know if you make any progress. I would like to know William Sr.'s parents.
Peggy
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Hmmm. That is odd. As you say some records must exist or else the marriage record would not have survived. It is possible they handed them all over to PRONI. Maybe the Minister is just tired fielding genealogy requests. As custodians of important family information I feel the various denominations could do a much better job on this front.
Do you happen to know the PRONI record reference?
Just to let you know there is another Spence family dating back to the same era in the nearby townland of Ballykennedy. I have fully worked up that family tree as far as available records go. William Snr's contemporary would have been Alexander Spence. He died young in the 1840's. We know of his existence because his wife Margaret referenced him and cause of death on the 1851 Census for this townland which remarkably survived the Four Courts Fire.
In tracing that line I discovered one of Alexanders sons Samuel was quite fastidious, leaving lots of records. Alexander had another son called William John (who never married) but nevertheless is a potential candidate as my ancestor's father. I have not been able to establish a genetic link with this line as yet but I have not discounted them given their proximity to the Templepatrick link.
With regard Samuel's fastidious nature he referenced where Alexander was from previous to Ballykennedy townland in his mothers Death notice. Tullyrusk townland. I checked the Tithe Applotment Book for Tullyrusk Parish and there he is in 1826 but not 1834. Interestingly two John Spences are also listed. I am thinking one is a brother, the other his father maybe.
No Spences are listed in the Tithe Applotment Book for Ballykennedy townland or indeed Killead Parish in the 1820's. None are listed in Templepatrick or Ballymartin Parishes either. Looking at all the Parishes to the east, west & south of our area of interest in Antrim the Spence family is represented in Blaris, Derriaghy, Magheragall, Magheramesk (largest concentration) and Tullyrusk (second largest concentration) Parishes. To the north in Antrim there is a large cluster in Ahoghill and a few in Ballyclug Parish.
It could be the Spence family was not long established in Templepatrick Parish as indeed they were not in Killead Parish.
It is my desire to research all of these leads but for the moment I have focused on those leading south west. Reversing Alexanders direction of travel. It leads us toward the Lagan Valley. For the moment I suspect the Ahoghill and Ballyclug families are not linked.
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Scroll down to page 358 for PRONI's holding for Templepatrick and you will see details of early records-
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/Guide-to-Church-Records-October-2019.pdf
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Thankyou for this. Will prove very useful when planning a future research trip.
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I put some of the PRONI links in the Ireland Resources board years ago-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=753389.0
The Ireland Resource board is here-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/ireland-resources/
Most counties have their own resource boards or pinned links at the start of the board.
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According to the Proni list, perhaps we could find William Sr.'s baptism in 1805 in the Templepatrick records. I have most of the baptisms of William's children in Lylehill Presbyterian. William's youngest child Elizabeth was baptised in 1859. Then according to daughter Barbara on the 1901 census, they emigrated in 1862. the same year of emigration is given by daughter Jane on the 1901 census but 1861 is given on the 1911 census.
William Jr.'s residence is given as Toberagnew, Parish of Ballymartin when he married in 1855 but Ballymather 1863-1865.
I did find a tree online which had my William as a son to John Spence and Elizabeth Ann Cadwell but I am not sure of that. Chronologically, he could fit but the oldest brother Alexander was born in Aghalee as was the youngest George. But William was born in Toberagnee/Toberagnew.
Peggy
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Before 1830 Templepatrick Presbyterian and the Non Subscribing church were one and the same. They split around 1830. PRONI holds microfilm records for both churches. As they were one and the same church up to 1830 all births and marriages are held on one microfilm up to 1830. From 1830 there are separate microfilms for each church. Births and marriages begin in the late 1780s and if searching the microfilms be prepared as there are hundreds of births and marriages recorded in the register each year. The registers tend to hold name of the child and father and sometimes townland. The marriage registers tend to hold name of bride and groom and sometimes townland resident. It can take a while to work your way thru the registers given the sheer amount of births and marriages and also trying to decipher the handwriting of the people who completed the register can be quite a task. Microfilm quality can also vary from page to page. Some pages are much easier to interpret. It pays to know the townlands and also the surnames common to the area which can help when examining the microfilmed registers. PRONI also hold the original Templepatrick register from which the microfilms are taken but they are not open to public scrutiny and you must work from the microfilm records.
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thank you Jason Mac. I will have to wait until I get to Ireland or ask someone to look for me. I have not looked at this branch of the family for a long time. William's birth is reportedly May 1805 which helps to narrow things down, IF he was baptised in this church.
Peggy
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Thankyou all for the valuable info.
Peggy, I agree with you re the stated link between all of these families. Someone did build a tree linking three familes. 1. Templepatrick Spences. 2. Ballykennedy Spences. 3. Magheramesk Spences.
I came across this as I researched the Ballykennedy clan, which I had researched early on because I had been focusing on William John Spence candidates in and around Belfast. I splt them out and did the usual GRO checks for each of them.
I have seen examples in other branches where some LDS researchers have made a habit out of making erroneous links. When I have contacted those who have published these trees they tend not to respond which raises my suspicions. I find it quite frustrating. I try to properly reference all my finds.
That said it is still plausible they could be connected considering the size of familes back then and proximity. Maybe someone else has done all of this before. Completing the desktop research will be important hopfully supported by genetic research. I am going to order a FamilyTree DNA pack to take part in the various family research projects hosted on that website. Aside from the link to your Spence family established via Ancestry DNA test I also share the Haplogroup Group with William Spence Snr via the Spence project on FamilyTree (I have my Haplogroup from 23andme).
I will be back in Belfast in a couple of weeks for a wedding. While I won't be able to dedicate much time to record hunting I might try to steal an hour or two test this hypothesis. Looking at Templepatrick and Dundrod Presbyterian records (Dundrod being the closest Presbyterian Church to Tullyrusk.
Best M.
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Peggy;
Re. William Snr details it is interesting they emmigrated around that time. Just hypothesising here but Andrew - my confirmed ancestor was born in 1860 (assuming he knew his correct age). Maybe he was too young to travel and raised by family locally? Another thought I have had is the Printshop Road association. Printshop Road links Lylehill with Ballymather. Andrew worked in the printing industry all his life. I wonder if there was a printing business in that area, he could have served an apprenticeship. Maybe he was not able to leave with William Jr and family when they emmigrated at a later date. All speculation but potential leads.
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William Jr. emigrated 1872 as per the 1901 and 1911 Canadian Censuses, making Andrew abt 12. But William Jr. had a legitimate son John Barron Spence abt June 5, 1860 in Ireland.
When William Jr. died in 1920, the death certificate has his father as Ivan Spence (as best I can tell). I did see a record before with his father as William I. Spence but I thought perhaps the J had been mistakenly read as an I - now I have to rethink that.
Peggy
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Hmmm. Confusing. So John Barron Spence emmigrated to Canda with William Jr and his wife and obviously has his mothers maiden name as middle name. Seems pretty clearly their son. Odd that his fathers name was listed as Ivan on his death certificate. I wonder what that is about. J would certainly be more convenient.
Important to remember Andrew's dob is estimated as I don't have any birth or baptismal records yet.
He could be William Sr's Youngest or one of William Jr's eldest as there is a cross-over apparently. I wonder if William Sr had two wives, only the church records will tell.
I just came across this btw:
https://www.planningni.gov.uk/index/policy/development_plans/devplans_az/lisburn_llpas.pdf
search 'Spence'.
There is a Rath in Maghaberry known as 'Spence's Fort'. About 12 miles from Dundrod and very near the Magheramersk clan.
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I have looked up both of Andrew's marriages and his father is given as William John Spence, farmer and in 1884 his father is deceased. I would say that eliminates both my William Sr. who died in 1890 in Canada and Jr. who died in 1920. Also my William Sr was a stone mason and Jr was a bricklayer. Now we also have indication that William Sr. could be William Ivan as per William Jr.'s death certificate. Getting interesting.
Peggy
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I would be sceptical about the use of Ivan as a Irish Christian in that period.
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Not sure I can do this but will try. I did see William I. on another record but please see attached death record for William Jr. which shows his parents.
Peggy
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I don't think it says 'Ivan' but even if it does that doesn't mean the information gave the correct information.
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the informant was William Jr.'s son Samuel Gibson Barron Spence who would have been 17 when Wm. Sr. died and 47 when Wm Jr., his father, died. Odds are that he would be likely to know both ancestors who lived in same town as Samuel.
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It's not at all uncommon to find incorrect details on a death certificate no matter how well the deceased was known to the informant. In this case the registrar or the informant could have put down the wrong name. In any event Ivan was not commonly used in Ireland when he lived here and even then I don't think it looks like Ivan.
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Hi folks,
I'm not convinced it says Ivan either. Nor do I think it is a mistake. It is a contraction of William 'Wm'. Look at the squiggle below. It's not related to 'Ireland' it is to signify a contraction. I have seen this elsewhere.
I would be interested to see the document related to William Sr as William I Spence.
With Andrew it may be he did not know his father. If he was the youngest of William Sr this would be entirely plausible and I think this is the most likely hypothesis for the moment. If his whole family left he may have lost contact with them. He may have considered his father dead in a rhetorical sense when recorded. William Sr could have had a small holding and been a stonemason or a farmer who liked to call himself a stonemason which he might have done on the side. No way of knowing but again plausible. If I could see that William I Spence document it would seal it for me until I can firm it up (or otherwise) with church records.
As you say when William Jr left Andrew was still an adolescent. Or he could have been illegitimate as I have considered before. Apparently it was common for fallen mothers to name their children for the father even in absense.
We have a family bible from Andrew. He began a family tree in the bible starting with himself. Seems odd he excluded his own parents. He may have felt abandoned or shame.
My Grandfather was born after Andrew died, since Andrew died relatively young. It would seem Herbert, my Grt Grandfather and Andrew's only surviving son did not talk about him. My dad has no recollection of Herbert talking about his father.
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Well, it may not be Ivan but I think it is. At the very least, I think the first letter looks exactly like the I in Ireland below. I realize Wm is often used for William but it doesn't look like that to me.
there is a family tree online, on familysearch.org, info by slightizer2768157, which has William I Spence, May 1805 County Antrim, Ireland, Death 7 March 1890 Arnprior, ON Burial Arnprior, ON (Albert Street Cemetery). I cannot say if it is correct or not.
I can't think that William Sr. would have left his youngest behind. I have been looking into the family more the last few days, and Wm. Jr. did live in Belfast when children Ellen, Ezekiel David and Margaret Jane were born. I don't know if William Jr. had a middle name.
Peggy
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Cheers for your help Peggy.
That is definitely a 'Wm'. The line underneath denotes a contraction. I have seen exactly the same format on other Registry documents for various Williams.
The dramatic writing style is just the authors style of cursive.
Cheers,
M.
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Hi MQSP
You mentioned earlier in this thread that you were going to do a Family tree DNA test. I hope that also includes family finder (as well as Y) as I know some Spence family members have completed both tests on there and you are likely to find some valuable test results to compare with.
Please let me know when your results are complete as so as I can look for matches.
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Hi,
I am sticking to Family Tree. I am already on Ancestry and 23&me. I think three is enough.
Family Tree was recommended by a genetic link on Ancestry who happens to be the genetic genealogy coordinator for the North of Ireland Family History Society.
I can see candidates on the Spence project on that site too.
I have just ordered the basic test for now as it is on sale. It looks like you can upgrade easily to Y and MtDNA at a later date.