RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Merionethshire => Topic started by: Ninian on Sunday 03 February 13 18:08 GMT (UK)
-
I have found a marriage for my 4xggrandparents in 2 separate parish registers. They appear to have married in both Llandanwg and Llanenddwyn on the same day - 30 August 1779 !! I’m fairly sure that it is the same couple. Here are the records:
MARRIAGE, Llandanwg
Hugh Griffith of the Parish of Dolgellau Batchelor and Mary Griffith of this Parish Singlewoman were married in Church by License this 30th Day of August in the Year One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy Nine by me Hugh Pryse, Rector.
This Marriage was solemnised between us Hugh Griffth, The mark of Mary Griffith
In the Presence of Rees David, Owen Robert.
MARRIAGE, Llanenddwyn
Hugh Griffith of the Parish of Dolgellau Batchr. and Mary Griffith of this Parish Spinster were married by Banns the 30th Day of August [1779]
Can anyone tell me if this is likely (wild guesses accepted!). Would they have rushed from one parish to the next to marry? If so, why? Or could the parish registers be wrong? Is there any significance to one marriage being by license and one by banns?
One other point - Hugh Griffith wrote his name very neatly but he was described in the parish records for the baptism of one of his children as ‘Labourer’. I suppose he may not have been fully literate, he might only be able to write his name, but would many labourers able to write in the late 1700s and where would he have learned to write?
Any ideas would be much appreciated.
Ninian
-
I think my problem has been solved. I found the information for these 2 marraiges from a findmypast search. Someone suggested that maybe the records had been misclassified ...... and indeed they had.
I did other searches and found that other couples had got married twice in both Llanenddwyn and Llandanwg!!!
What has happened seems to be that the BT of Llanenddwyn are indeed from Llanenddwyn but the marriage registers which FindMyPast classify as Llandanwg are in fact from Llanenddwyn as well.
I only signed up to FindMyPast this month and have lost a bit of confidence in the site already!
Ninian
-
I also found this problem, particularly with Llanenddwyn and Llandanwg but also in Caernarfonshire.
A lot of the Caernarfonshire records seem to have been corrected and so perhaps they will sort out the others.
However, I have found some identical records in two different parishes - Trawfynydd and Llanfrothen.
David
-
Hi David
That's interesting but I don't know whether it's comforting or not!! ... especially as I have plenty of things to look up in both Traws and Llanfrothen.
I sent a message to FindMyPast support and I wish I had not bothered. Despite explaining to them that both images are clearly of the same date - 30 August and both are from Llanenddwyn (one the BT and the other the parish record) despite one purporting to be for Llandanwg, their reply was:
"The two records for Hugh Griffiths state that one date is the 30th of August the other the 13th. Both original images are separate and distinct." So I don't think I'm going to get anywhere there.
They confirmed that they have the images for Llandanwg post 1812 but no searches for Llandanwg will come up with anything at all. It's very frustrating if the images are there but just can't be accessed. Especially as they don't give any impression that they are investigating the problem.
I hope you are right and they will sort it eventually
Regards, Ninian
-
I think the problem that I experienced may have been resolved. I can't remember which way round it was but you had to search for one of the parishes under the other but now both come up in the results.
In this case I think the problem is that the same rector, Hugh Pryse, is involved with the marriages.
However, I looked at a few others and some under Llanenddwyn say 'of this parish of Llanenddwyn' but if you look at some of those in Llandanwg they also say 'of this parish of Llanenddwyn'.
Have a look at Robert Owen of 1783. The transcripts both say they are of Llanenddwyn and the image for Llandanwg actually says 'of this parish of Llanenddwyn', although the images are different.
I think the Llanfrothen and Trawsfynydd records were in Dolgellau, although I visited the National Library in the same week, and so definitely archived separately. I can't remember if one was BTs and one PRs but I thought that FindMyPast was all the same source.
It would be interesting to look at those in Dolgellau and Aberystwyth to see how Llanenddwyn and Llandanwg are archived. It sounds as though there are no records for Llandanwg or both parishes are treated as one.
A bit of a mystery.
David
-
I've looked at Robert Owen and this is exactly the same as for my Hugh Griffith. The search for Robert and also for Hugh reveal two identical marriages but claim one is Llandanwg and the other Llanenddwyn. The images are different so you assume that the images are from the parishes they say they are from - but they aren't!!
Hugh Pryse is, as various records in the Llanenddwyn images tell us, the Rector or Llanenddwyn and Llanddwywe (but he is not the rector of Llandanwg). However, his name crops up constantly on both sets of images. So both sets of images are from the parish of Llanenddwyn. The ones that purport to be Llandanwg are on printed forms, these are the marriage records of Llanenddwyn parish and the ones not on printed forms and contain bapts, marriages and burials are the Bishops transcripts for Llanenddwyn.
I'm almost certain that all the records in Dolgellau and the NLW are indexed properly - it is very easy to check which parish you are on from the information on the films themselves. I haven't had any problems with either. There are definitely marriage records on Llandanwg for this period - I have copies of them from Dolgellau ..... but I can't get these records on any Llandanwg search on FindMyPast .... that is because the Llandanwg records are records from Llanenddwyn!!
Oh dear. I have told FindMyPast but they don't believe me. What more can one do??!?
-
There are definitely some Llandanwg images in there.
I searched on a known relative, Griffith Pryse of 1788, and he only appears as Llandanwg, although it was Llanenddwyn.
I then searched on his wife, Ann(e) Owen, but only in Llandanwg and of the five results, the one from 1788 is incorrect but all of the others are Llandanwg, including a duplicate from 1756, which is under both marriages and banns.
It sounds as though you can search on Llandanwg but it is pot luck as to whether they are there or Llanenddwyn.
David
-
I've had another scout around Llandanwg and Llanenddwyn again this evening.
Like you I have found quite a lot of Llandanwg images which are indeed from Llandanwg. So I agree, Llandanwg records are definitely there. I went page by page thru some of the sets of images til I got to the beginning or end of the film where I came to the record of the Mormon church filming of the registers.
e.g. one for Llandanwg (and it really is of Llandanwg) reads:
Microfilmed by The Genealogical Society, Salt Lake City, Utah at :
Meirionnydd Record Office Dolgellau
Operator: Malcolm Twigg
Date Filmed: 15 Nov 2007
Llandanwg Images
Locality of Record : Llandanwg Parish Church
Title of Record: Baptisms, Marriages and Burials
Item : ZPE/8/5 1725 - 1812
These Llandanwg records 1725-1812 seem to be OK, all consecutive years and just as you would see them on film in NLW or Dolgellau. Also you can search for them in FindMyPast and the images for Llandanwg seem to show up as Llandanwg.
I've found the same info at the end of films of some of the Llanenddwyn and Llanaber records and the bapts for Llandanwg 1902 onwards as well and these also seem to be ok ...... but there will be other films of all there parishes and I haven't checked them all - very tedious to do.
However, I'm pretty sure that although the FindMyPast list for Llandanwg says they have records for Llandanwg up to 1912, I don't think they do. I can't get any images of Llandanwg 1812 - 1902. I think they have a gap between 1812 and 1902 where the records start again. Also a big batch of the marriages for Llanenddwyn have been misclassified and come up as Llandanwg.
Were the ones you checked for Griffith Pryse and Anne Owen marriages that should have been Llanenddwyn but showed up as Llandanwg? If so, it seems to fit what I think might be happening: where FindMyPast have correct images for Llandanwg they come up as Llandanwg in a search (as they should), but you don't get all the Llandanwg ones (cos of the gaps between 1812-1902) and you get some Llanenddwyn marriages pretending to be Llandanwg.
I think all the incorrect ones I have found are Llandanwg marriages. Have you found any incorrect images for Llandanwg which are bapts or burials? It wouldn't be too bad if we could believe that baptisms and burials for Llandanwg were accurate.
-
It is all very complicated.
The Griffith Pryse marriage is shown in Llandanwg but was in Llanenddwyn. Unlike others, it is not duplicated in Llanenddwyn because there are no records for that year.
You can check this by searching on a common first name in Llanenddwyn with a date range of 1800 +/- 10.
If it doesn't time-out there will be no results. If you then change to Llandanwg, you get those from Llanenddwyn.
I am not sure if this means that the Llandanwg records are missing or if only one of the two churhes was used for marriages.
A cross-check of BTs and PRs might be the answer
I can't find any baptisms at Llandanwg for the period following 1812 but there are marriages and burials
For instance:-
Gwen Ellis buried in Llandanwg 1835. Only some have an abode of Llandanwg
Gwen Jones buried in Landanwg 1855. None has an abode of Llandanwg
Search on a marriage for Gwen Williams in Llandanwg. If the bride's parish is the same as the Place/Parish, then that is where the marriage took place. If not, it was in the bride's parish. In this case, only that for 1825 was in Llandanwg.
The problem is that the FindMyPast search engine is not very good and so you have limited search options and it tends to time-out if too compilcated.
I imagine that they could sort some of it out by cross-checking the bride's parish and the parish of the marriage.
I wonder if other parishes have the same problem?
David
-
there are problems with other parishes. I've found indexing errors in Monmouthshire as well and just this morning found some Llanenddwyn records under Montgomeryshire. It looks like the same records, might well be the BTs.
I'm not sure where the indexing errors creep in. It could be that FindMyPast took the records in good faith from the Welsh Archives Services, although it seems unlikely that WAS would allocate Merionethshire records to Montgomeryshire. Just goes to show that you can't rely on transcriptions and should always check the original record.
;)
-
That is interesting.
I had a quick look and one of the burials is for the rector, Hugh Pryse, in June 1787. However, one is from the Powys Transcripts and one from Merionethshire.
At first, I thought that one might be BTs and one PRs but both are they same, although scanned at different times.
David
-
Llandanwg really is a real jumble. So I decided to have a look elsewhere, so I moved on to Llanfair and checked some records I already had copies of from Dolgellau and NLW - not one came up. Despite the FindMyPast list claiming to have Llanfair Bapts 1787 - 1878, I can't find a baptism at all; they have some marriage but despite supposedly having burials for 1767 - 1810 I can't find any of those either.
I then tried Llanfihangel y traethau. FindMyPast have a short film run from the Mormon film: Baptisms 1811 - 1817 but despite saying they have the baptisms for Llanfihangel from 1690-1912 they certainly don't come up on any search I've done. I have copies (from Dolgellau) of bapts of a large family where the bapts start in 1808 and run thru to 1822 but only the 2 children bapt between 1811 and 1817 come up in the search.
You are right - the only thing to do is to check all FindMyPast records at the County Archives or NLW - very tedious. FindMyPast must have purchased the films which the Mormon church filmed in 2007 when they went round the NL and the County Archive offices in Wales. Perhaps they didn't purchase all the available films? or have lost some? or their search engine just isn't picking them up? I tried to tell them but they really wouldn't accept it. Have either of you tried? I think I will try again - I might get someone who is more receptive next time. if enough people tell them there is a problem they might look into it.
One thing that FindMyPast don't do is to record where there are gaps in the coverage. All their lists of coverage are continuous - and that isn't right. Many parishes have gaps where the information has gone missing over the centuries. This is very clear on the catalogues in the County Archives and the NLW but FindMyPast claim the coverage is continuous. This doesn't help.
I'm not sure if I dare to move on to look at the other North Wales counties now I know that problems seem to occur in most counties.
It's not all bad news though - I only signed up to FindMyPast this month and I've already found several really useful records in Merioneth (and I think they are correct) and as a result I've found 2 new marriage bonds and 3 new wills - so that's offset the frustration with the missing records ...... more or less!
-
Normally FindMyPast have been quite good on changes, especially the 1911 census after I reported scores of errors.
The Wales records are perhaps a bit more complicated although changing the county from Montgomery to Merionethshire shouldn't be too difficult. In fact, they could probably remove the Llanenddwyn records from Montgomery because they are the same as Merionethshire and not such good copies.
I will send a message to them and see if it makes any difference.
Re Llanfihangel-y-traethau, this is another of my areas and there are some c1700. For instance, I have an Elin Owen of 1704, although she is transcribed as Elin Humphrey. Patronymics causes the problem and they assume that the father's surname is that of the child.
As you have found, it can be very frustrating but I have found sufficient to make me want to renew my subscription when it is due.
David
-
I have sent a message to FindMyPast.
Re my previous message, I got it the wrong way round with the quality of images. The Montgomery copy is better than that of Merionethshire.
David
-
They were good on amending 1911 transcription errors that I sent in too ..... before I gave up cos there were so many but as you say this is more complicated.
I think I will have another go with reporting the oddities with Llandanwg etc and hope I get a different person and better response. I'm away most of next week and then I'm hoping to get a day trip to NLW the following week so I might wait til then so I can quote the differences in FindMyPast records with those in NLW (dunno if that will help but it might).
I went on to the family search site this evening and the describe the FindMyPast site as a Partner Site and say "This collection was done in cooperation with FindMyPast". As the Mormon Church did the filming perhaps FindMyPast did the transcriptions and the results were shared? They have certainly shared the errors - I looked up my Hugh Griffith marriage (actually 30 Aug 1779 in Llanenddwyn) on the family search site and it was identical to FindMyPast: 13 Aug in Llandanwg and 30 Aug in Llaneddwyn.
-
I have had a reply from FindMyPast and they say that they will not change anything by email and you have to use the 'Report Transcription Change' method. This is OK for a simple change but not global changes. It would takes days of continuous work and hundreds (thousands?) of submissions to update all of the errors.
My subscription is up for renewal in two weeks and I am considering a cancellation.
David
-
Having sent another message to FindMyPast, they now say that they will look into it.
David
-
That's good. They told me to report thru the Transcription Change method too. As you say, just not practical, it's not designed for reporting whole batches of mis-assigned images ...... and they more or less told me that the images were correct anyway.
I'm glad you've got them to look at the issue. I'll try and look at some of the images we think are popping up under the wrong parish when I go to the NLW shortly and see which parishes the NLW record them as. Then I'll report the issue again, armed I hope with evidence from the NLW ...... if they haven't sorted it by then. It can't do any harm for more than one person to report their errors. The more valid complaints they get the more careful they might be in future (perhaps!)
-
The problem here is that there is an old church dedicated to St Tanwg's at Llandanwg, situated just behind the beach in the sand dunes and close to Shell Island. The church was falling into ruin in the 1840s and a new church was built in Harlech and since this church was intended to replace the early church it too was dedicated to St Tanwg. In 1884, following a public outcry, the roof was replaced on St Tanwg's Church so there are 2 churches within a distance of 2 miles and both dedicated to St Tanwg.
Matters become more complicated because Llandanwg is not only the name of a small village but is also the name of a parish. Harlech, for example, is in the parish of Llandanwg.
-
Thanks for this. A further complication seems to be that the original parish church was right on the edge of Llandanwg parish - not very conveniently placed for the parishioners of Llandanwg but very convenient for the parishioners of the neighbouring parish of Llanfair. Many people from Llanfair seem to have some of their children baptised in Llanfair and some in Llandanwg - it all yets very confusing.
-
I notice those two places are aprox. 5 miles apart, one being one mile from Harlech and the other church being 2 miles from Harlech.
By law banns have to be called 3 times in the parish where the bride live and 3 times in the parish where the groom live. I have a similar situation with my ancestors up in Scotland 1850 where the groom's wedding banns announcement to his bride (name given) together with his address was noted in his Glasgow parish church and the brides's solemnised marriage to the groom plus her address was recorded in her Tollcross Parish Church.