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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: cnerys on Friday 01 February 13 14:29 GMT (UK)
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I am having difficulty working out the occupation of my 3X great grandfather Robert Roberts on the 1901 census. I think it says Temper ................ I am trying to prove that he died due to an accident that happened in 1904. I found a burial record for him in Denbigh in 1904 and next to the entry it says Coroner's order. I did have a quick look in the archives when I was home last year for any newspaper report at the time and I know there was one there but I have to prove it's for my ancestor. Here's what I have
1901
Robert Roberts b 1844 c born Cyffylliog on this census.
He is living with his wife Jane Roberts at 12 Brookhouse, Llanrhaiadr RG13/5231 page 5
I can't remember all the newspaper details as I wasn't sure if it does relate to me but if anyone can work out what his occupation is it might help.
There aren't many deaths for Robert Roberts in the Ruthin area between 1901 and 1911, as Jane is classed as a widow on the 1911 census.
If I can understand what his occupation was in 1901 and tie it in with the accident then it will be worth my while sending for any certificates.
Any help would be great.
Thank you
Kind regards
Nerys
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Had Robert been married previously?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I1901
RG13/5231 page 5
Do you have a folio number for that reference?
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It's got me beat for the moment - attached a snip!
brevitas
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Its Folio 7,I'm having difficulty finding him earlier.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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First glance says founder or fouler :-\ looking to see if theres a similar occupation on another page...
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I thought it looked like <something> fowler
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We'll see what the OP comes back with.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I thought it looked like <something> fowler
Possibly, Is there any clue in that previous pages all seem to be agriculturally based occupations
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No clues so far - it does have him as an employer as opposed to worker!
In 1881, I think they're at 5532/100/8 He's down as b. Pontuchel (Bontuchel which is in Gyffylliog). A general labourer!
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1891 4629/82/4
A thrashing engine driver
(- RC's going ever so slow :( )
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I'm not so sure it is the right one in 1881.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I'm not so sure it is the right one in 1881.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
Why? - wife b, Nantglyn, He b. Pontuchel which is in Gyffylliog - both of similar ages.
You have to give a reason for your reply :-X ;D
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It could be,I was looking at another one married to a Grace in 1891 at first,but they are still together in 1901.Which is why I asked had he been married before.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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If you search on Jane b. Nantglyn circa 1835, the same family comes up 1881, 1891 and 1901.
Robert also of right age - and place of birth.
(Remember - I've done more Roberts searches than most ;D ;D ;D ;D )
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It wasn't easy working back from the original 1901 with no children!Though there are not many clues earlier given he's an Employer in 1901!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Some of my ancestors came from Gyffylliog so I knew about Bontuchel and Jane b. Nantglyn seemed an easier searching option - doesn't get us any nearer what he did though. I think a newspaper report/death cert might be the only option.
If you look closely, it looks as if they were scribbled in at the bottom - slightly messier writing ::)
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A very outside guess but he's living next to two butchers - could it be a very badly written Trap(p)er fowler
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I wonder why the " f " is not joined to the last word, the other words are totally joined up, also in the ending of the first word the letter looks very similar to the p in employer? employd?
Is he a ***per of *****. thats not much help is it ;D ;D ;D ;D
mike
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thats not much help is it ;D ;D ;D ;D
mike
No - I'm wondering if part of this was in Welsh 8)
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Ah well you can't win them all :( :( :(
seems they made gloves in denbigh, is it a technical term to do with treating animal skins to make them thin and flexible
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I apologise for the lack of responses to all the replies, I have been ill for a few days. Robert was indeed noted as born Bontuchel on most census and Jane always Nantglyn. This occupation on the 1901 census was totally different. I have had no success in locating a gravestone for the pair, I think they are buried in Denbigh, but it's just the matter of proving that Robert Roberts who died due to an accident at work is my ancestor. I think a trip to the archives to read the newspapers again will be on the cards.
Thank you for all the responses, they are fascinating to read.
Kind regards
Nerys
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I want to look at the first word.
'Temper' has been suggested, but this enumerator does not dot his 'i's, so it could be 'Timper'.
Now look at the many entries, including one on the same page, where the occupation appears to be 'Arg Lapour'. In the last two or three pages of the e.d. he suddenly starts writing it 'Arg Labour'.
Also note on page 5 (image 3 at Ancestry) an instance of a child who is a 'School Poy'.
I think this enumerator is pronouncing (or hearing in his head) some 'b's as 'p's.
So I think the first word could be 'timber'.
Hugh
(or should that be Huw)
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Could it be Timber Feller?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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OOOh how fascinating, and I would never think to look so deeply into the way the words are written on the census. I will have to check it out again.
Thank you Hugh
Kind regards
Nerys
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I want to look at the first word.
'Temper' has been suggested, but this enumerator does not dot his 'i's, so it could be 'Timper'.
Now look at the many entries, including one on the same page, where the occupation appears to be 'Arg Lapour'. In the last two or three pages of the e.d. he suddenly starts writing it 'Arg Labour'.
Also note on page 5 (image 3 at Ancestry) an instance of a child who is a 'School Poy'.
I think this enumerator is pronouncing (or hearing in his head) some 'b's as 'p's.
So I think the first word could be 'timber'.
Hugh
(or should that be Huw)
Could it be Timber Feller?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
By jove I think you've got it ;D and looking again I think that says 'employed' not employer.
I wonder if the chap was mildly dislexic, they often muddle b's and p's and 6's and 9's ?
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I am trying to prove that he died due to an accident that happened in 1904. I found a burial record for him in Denbigh in 1904 and next to the entry it says Coroner's order
It may be worth you contacting Ruthin Archives, they have an index to Coroners Inquests, but not all records have been kept. As it`s a common name , it would help if you had a date etc.
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Thank you Annette,
I was only discussing with my mam earlier whether inquest reports might be available. The only date we have is the burial date, but that's a good starting point. I have tried looking on an online newspaper site, but no record came up. It's fascinating stuff.
I also have to agree it does look like Timber Feller on the census too so thanks for all the hard work decyphering those words for me.
Kind regards
Nerys
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i may be waaaaaay off base here.... Temper founder...
In my early days of signwriting we had a product called Temper....
It was a coloured chalk that could be made into a waterbased paint.
But as I said I may be way off base and this census may be something totally different
because I thought Wales was more of metal founding skills
???
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forget my last answer totally, i knew i had heard the expression before>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempering
this explains was a temper founder is........
it a person who can make the metal into different softnesses.....
:)
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Hi
I found that newspapers were the only source of inquests for those of my ancestors. I was lucky that the librarian (s) that I contacted were able to send me copies via e-mail. The Denbighshire Archives people are really helpful but the Archives don't hold all such info.
It's a pity that the burial record (10th Dec 1904) doesn't give his age - this seems to be the nearest death reg:
Robert Roberts, age 63, Dec q, 1904, St Asaph 11b 227
brevitas
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this explains was a temper founder is........
Does it? I can't see any reference to a "Temper founder" on that page. Temper and founder are both words used in blacksmithing but the phrase "temper founder" doesn't seem to make sense to me.
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Robert's may be a "tamper fowler"? (ie, tamper/fowler) He loads guns for shooting fowl?
He has to 'tamp down' the shot and cartridge down the barrel of a shotgun before handing it over for someone to shoot birds - and he does a bit of hunting himself.
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a tamper fowler is a good alternative .......
::)
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Robert's may be a "tamper fowler"? (ie, tamper/fowler) He loads guns for shooting fowl?
He has to 'tamp down' the shot and cartridge down the barrel of a shotgun before handing it over for someone to shoot birds - and he does a bit of hunting himself.
Best suggestion yet :)
Some of us read it as 'fowler' very early on.
It also is in keeping with the rural/ag nature of the area and could explain an accidental death, maybe!
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Yes - I take no credit for the "fowler" part. He may have suffered a 'blow-back' or misfire of his fowling-piece.
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The only problem with that convoluted theory is that "tamper Fowler" is not, and has never been an occupation.
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Robert's may be a "tamper fowler"? (ie, tamper/fowler) He loads guns for shooting fowl?
He has to 'tamp down' the shot and cartridge down the barrel of a shotgun before handing it over for someone to shoot birds - and he does a bit of hunting himself.
I think muzzle loaders were probably obsolete by the 20th century.
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Perhaps it's Temp...orary fowler...?
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Could it be Timber Feller?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
Or Timber Faller (they are still called this in many rural areas today.) Despite it looking very like Temper, I think you have come up with the right solution here.
Mike
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There are more letters in the f word than in feller and only one l:
(http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=633947.0;attach=359581;image)
Llanrhaiadr was not really known for it's trees - some but not all that many. However, there was a large Hall and there were gamekeepers and mole catchers ;D
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That's why I was wondering about fauler (faller)
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I think maybe a walk through of the piece might give more clues to the enumerator's writing. He also completed the 1891 census for Llanrhaiadr yn Ngimerch. I think he 'strictly' copied what he thought was written on the household schedule - a mix of Welsh and English.
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I couldn't find the original image (I think the folio number is missing.) It would be useful to see other examples of this enumerator's handwriting to see if he really was dyslexic.
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Cross-posted! Great minds, and all that.
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I think we gave the original ref on page 1 - the missing bit was folio 7
I walked through both census years earlier today - he wasn't dyslexic - just had probs interpreting the householders' writing :-X
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Ps
Also, as I said, parts are in a mixture of Welsh and English so shouldn't be taken as straight English.
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Thanks, got it now. On the same page, I'm seeing words like "schoolar" for scholar, and "Gardner" for gardener.
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... He also completed the 1891 census for Llanrhaiadr yn Ngimerch. ...
Did you find Robert Roberts there?
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1891 4629/82/4
A thrashing engine driver
(- RC's going ever so slow :( )
He was not in Llanrhaeadr
(circles and going around come to mind ;D ;D ;D ;D )
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1891 4629/82/4
A thrashing engine driver
(- RC's going ever so slow :( )
Oops - I trawled back and saw it, just too late. he's been a bit of a general agricultural all-rounder, then.Like many of my own ancestors.
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Thank you for trying ;D I think I am going to have to try to find the newspaper report to find out what his death was all about.
Kind regards
Nerys
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OK, let's have another bash at this.
I had another closer look at the formation of the letters on the original census form: the first letter looks like a F with a curl on the top cross-stroke (it's not like the T on the treshing-engine driver entry), then it could be a E, then possibly two R's. Then a looped letter, possibly an E. The next letter could be a T formed with a loop making it seem like a P; then an E, then a R - making the word/occupation Ferriter or Ferreter.
(I couldn't find any reference to Roberts' accident in the newspaper archives avavilable on various sites.)
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....... - making the word/occupation Ferriter or Ferreter.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I was looking at the abbreviation written next to these words during the classification process. It apppears to be the letter 'O' followed by one number (2?, 7?) over another (1?, 7?).
I could only find one other entry in the e.d. which has an 'O' followed by a number (O 7), and that was for a 'mole catcher'. Sorry I didn't note which page.
Is it possible we actually have two attempts to write the same word ?!
Hugh
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It's a T.
:)
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OOOOH another possibility, how fascinating ;D . Thank you for your interest and your interpretation. I might have to ask for a look up at Ruthin archives now as I can't wait until I'm home in August to go myself. It's all very mysterious.
Best wishes
Nerys
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I am trying to prove that he died due to an accident that happened in 1904. I found a burial record for him in Denbigh in 1904 and next to the entry it says Coroner's order. Thank you
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Are you certain he had an accident, he may have just suffered a "sudden death" which had to be investigated.
Perhaps the actual death certificate will give more information, on where he died etc.
Authority to bury2.6
Before a burial takes place, authority for the burial should be produced.This will normally consist of a certificate from the Registrar of Births andDeaths, or the coroner’s burial order
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I know Robert Roberts b 1844 c Gyfylliog/Bontuchel was alive on the 1901 census but deceased on the 1911 as his wife Jane Roberts is still alive living with her daughter and son in law, Jane classed as widow. There is only 1 burial that I can find in Denbigh of a Robert Roberts buried 10th December 1904 with the coroner's order note next to the entry in the burial book. There is an article in the local newspaper at that time of an accident that happened to a Robert Roberts at around the time of his burial but I can't remember the details as I didn't know at the time if it was all relevant to my Robert Roberts. I have looked at all deaths between 1901=1911 and they are limited for the age Robert had always classed himself as being born around 1844.
Best wishes
Nerys
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nerys, please can you inbox me ! RE, a post about your family tree ?
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Welcome to Rootschat!Before you are able to receive and answer any private message from Nerys you will have to post three messages.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Sorry to come in with a late response, but better late than never ;D
The Ferreter suggestion cracked it because I was wondering if the last bit was " & Owler " so Ferreter & Owler makes a lot of sense. I couldn't see the first word as Temper because the letter 'm' is so different to that in Employer/ed.
Colin
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Ferreter and Owler makes no sort of sense as an occupation, however.
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Ha, Ha, Thank you Colin, who knows what it meant but I have had many, many good responses and interesting thoughts on this one. I will re-post once I have managed to go to the archives in Ruthin in August to look up the newspaper report to clarify the original details.
Kind regards
Nerys
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beginnerwales
Can you send a couple more messages then I can get in touch with you :)
Kind regards
Nerys
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Hi nerys,
First of all, Thank you for replying to me. I (if you are who I`m looking for) have information regarding your family history.
I have been researching the name "IVOR WILLIAMS" I have reason to believe he lived at henblas farm abergele, Can you please confirm we are talking about the same person/family ? are you a family member to MR Ivor Williams ? who lived in abergele in the 1980`s if so, then please contact me ! I will explain everything.
thank you so much for your reply and I hope to speak to you soon.
My name is Rob winstanley I live in prestatyn, Denbighshire.
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Is Ivor Williams alive or dead?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Ferreter and Owler makes no sort of sense as an occupation, however.
I don't see why not Mike, could it not just be what he was doing at that particular time ? I have a chap who was an ag.lab all his life except in one census where he says 'carting hay'.
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Ferreter and Owler makes no sort of sense as an occupation, however.
If rats can keep someone in full-time employment, then why can't wild rabbits and rodents, at least for a month or two ;D ;D
Colin
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Apart from the fact that it clearly doesn't say either Ferreter or Owler, and there is no such occupation as Owler, no reason, I suppose. ;D
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Is Ivor Williams alive or dead?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
I have no idea if he has passed away?
Kind regards
Nerys
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Ivor Williams is alive, I am his son, can I help?
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Just been reading through this interesting thread...and I think the point being made about Ivor Williams is that we can't publicly discuss living persons here.
Private messaging is another matter :)
Cheers,
China
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Just been reading through this interesting thread...and I think the point being made about Ivor Williams is that we can't publicly discuss living persons here.
Private messaging is another matter :)
Cheers,
China
So true!
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Hi
I found that newspapers were the only source of inquests for those of my ancestors. I was lucky that the librarian (s) that I contacted were able to send me copies via e-mail. The Denbighshire Archives people are really helpful but the Archives don't hold all such info.
It's a pity that the burial record (10th Dec 1904) doesn't give his age - this seems to be the nearest death reg:
Robert Roberts, age 63, Dec q, 1904, St Asaph 11b 227
brevitas
It's a few years since this thread started and we still don't know if the burial was the correct one.
Perhaps these reports might help.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3885102/3885120/133/
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3885121/3885131/80/
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ROBERTS, ROBERT 81 GRO Reference: 1904 D Quarter in ST ASAPH Volume 11B Page 218
ROBERTS, ROBERT 74 GRO Reference: 1904 D Quarter in ST ASAPH Volume 11B Page 222
ROBERTS, ROBERT 63 GRO Reference: 1904 D Quarter in ST ASAPH Volume 11B Page 227
ROBERTS, ROBERT 48 GRO Reference: 1904 D Quarter in ST ASAPH Volume 11B Page 233
The report says he was about 50, so perhaps the 48 year old is the right one.
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http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/eglwysi/denbigh_marcella.htm
Eglwys Wen Church
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Hello Wilcoxon,
What a surprise to see your post. Thank you for your continued interest and help in my Robert Roberts. In the past 9 years we have discovered nothing further on him. I did send for the death certificate but unfortunately it just contained inquest details and nothing of next of kin, so I wasn't able to conclusively say this was the correct Robert Roberts. I do believe it is him, I just can't prove it. We also have seen the burial in Eglwyswen Church and don't think it's the correct one for us. Robert's wife Jane has also been difficult to prove her death. She was 86 on the 1911 census living with her daughter. I bought a certificate for same age Jane Roberts but she died in workhouse with the master noted as the next of kin. The newspaper clippings you sent links to were very interesting. Unfortunately the one with the funeral notice mentioned he had 3 children, which indeed he did by the time he died as one of his daughters died in 1903 after childbirth. But it didn't mention a widow, so I can't use that as proof that it was my Robert Roberts either and the only mention in the inquest newspaper article to family was just that, sympathies to the family, I suppose that's how they did it back then. But I thank you very much for your input, it's very much appreciated.
Kind Regards
Nerys