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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Hobbit Frodo on Thursday 31 January 13 11:10 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I have just downloaded another family will from the good old PCC but I can't work out a surname mentioned in it! The will is for Deborah smith and she mentions her brother the late Rev. Thomas Smith and his will and then leaves everything to her niece Margaret ???????. This is where I can't figure out the surname! I have copied a little section of the will where Margaret's name appears twice. If anyone can give me any thoughts about the name this would be very helpful as it might help us uncover a bit more of the Smiths!
many thanks
Frodo
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tricky
looks like _uirhoth
and the first letter is very similar to the T of Thomas
but Tuirhoth? never heard of it!
When and where is the action taking place?
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I can't make it out but I wonder whether it's a surname at all. Could it be Margaret's middle name - Margaret Ethelberta, or something?
Mike
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Culcheth?
vv.
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When and where is the action taking place?
I think that's the key to this one.
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Oh sorry yes should have said dates! Deborah died in 1825 (her brother died in 1820). Any of the suggested names are possible! I am not aware of any particular middle name cropping up as a 'family thing' other than Viney (there are two Margaret Viney Smiths on another branch of the family and Deborah's mother was Margaret Smith nee Viney) this doesn't look like that though. It's infuriating!
Thanks for the suggestions, much appreciated. :)
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Oh and all the action is taking place in Parkstone, Poole, Dorset. Interestingly though Deborah is buried back in her familial territory of Sturminster Marshall in another part of Dorset.
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Culcheth?
vv.
Or Tulcheth - I was going along the same lines but see the firts letter as a T?
Jen :)
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I just looked up 'Tulcheth Dorset' on google and it said did I mean 'Culcheth'. I did wonder if it was a T or a C. Looking at more word in the document I think it could well be a C as there are tiny differences between the way they're written. I have never ehard of the surname before! It's be a miracle to finally have an ancestor with an unusual surname, my lot are all Smiths, Edwards, Taylors and Duttons so far, nightmare bunch!!!
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Looking at names ending Hoth or Heth, I reckon that it must be Culcheth - though none in Dorset in 1851 .....
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I've just found a Margaret Culcheth died in Parkstone in 1772 aged 81....not quite sure where that leaves things as it's making my head hurt trying to figure out if she could be a relative!
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The name Culcheth is mostly found in Lancashire and Cheshire according to Family Search.
Possibly named after the village of Culcheth in Cheshire, historically part of Lancashire.
vv.
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When did Deborah write her Will? You say she died 1825. If she wrote it after 1772 then the MArgaret's death in that year cant be the niece.
But of course it could be the niece's mother couldnt it?
I take it Deborah was single (as has same surname as brother Thomas) - so, did she also have a sister called MArgaret who married a Culcheth? Or, seeing as Margaret Culcheth dying in 1772 was born in the late 1600's, do we need to go back another generation?
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Oh and all the action is taking place in Parkstone, Poole, Dorset.
1841Census: HO107 287 6/11 16
Parkstone Village, Canford Magna, Parkstone, Poole DOR
Margaret Culcheth, F, 60, Ind., No
Margaret Culcheth, F, 25, Ind., No
vv.
FindMyPast as above, Ancestry say Culebeth!
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Margaret Culcheth was born in 1772 and buried 16th October, 1853 at St Peters Parkstone.
Mo
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WOW! You guys are amazing :) :) :)
Thanks soooooo much!
I am being very slow and dim today but what does the 'Ind' mean on the census? If Margaret was a spinster then her daughter must have been illegitimate....but if this Margaret was married then she might be linked but not the one mentioned in Deborah's will. I think. Possibly.
THANK YOU!
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And well spotted on the Culebeth....no wonder I couldn't find them when I looked in Ancestry under the proper spelling ;)
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Ind means that she was living on independent means, so not relying on the parish or any other source for her income.
Jen
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhh! I see! So it's possible she was an unmarried mother with an illegitimate daughter but as she had her own funds (which if this is the same woman then she was left a reasonable amount by her aunt) she was out and proud! Well, OK, that's less likely but I guess she could have soldiered on in the face of adversity with her daughter alongside.
Interesting.
If this is the right Margaret then she had another relative in Parkstone at a similar time, also called Margaret also having and illegitimate daughter called Margaret! They had the Smith surname though and the mother in this instance died during child birth.
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The 1841 census does not help in establishing her status.
She could indeed be unmarried, but equally, a widow, or
a married woman with husband away on business. Also,
the younger Margaret with her need not be her daughter.
Likely the death cert would clarify her marital status:
CULCHETH Margaret, December Quarter 1853, Poole 5a 177.
vv.
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Hi
There is a Will on Ancestry for a Margaret Culcheth, who died 11 Oct 1853, you can view it on line and as lots of information about her niece Margaret Gullie ? it also mentions other relatives
Margp
Edit, I have had a closer look, Margaret was a spinster, it looks like she was born in Liverpool, and Margaret Grille was the wife of John Lewis Grille from Liverpool
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Hi
Marriage record for John Louis Grille and Margaret Culcheth
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NN98-4X8
Margp
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A link to the will MargP found: http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ssg/
vv.
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Thanks VV
I was not sure if that was allowed
Margp
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I think that's ok, it's not even viewable without a login.
Sure someone will let us know if it's frowned on. :)
vv.
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Hi Frodo
Can you give us more information on Deborah Smith, ie, maiden name, DOB, husbands name, to see if we can link her to Margaret Culcheth
Margp
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If Deborah's brother was Thomas smith, I guess she was single.
Seems most likely there may have been a sister who married a Culcheth and had a daughter Margaret.
I think we reached this point before!
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Sorry another OAP moment, I thought it said brother-in-law
Margp
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Or it could be brother Thomas had a daughter called Margaret who married a Culcheth?
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Hi All,
Thanks so much for all these thoughts and sorry for disappearing! Work has been a bit crazy! My father has in the meantime managed to find Rev Thomas Smith's will which neither of us has had a proper chance to look through yet but I think it's going to confuse things even more as it keeps mentioning his niece Margaret (think he remained unmarried and didn't have any kids of his own) and another person and after their first names it has a surname that doesn't look like Culcheth but also says 'alias ?????' another name that we cannot fathom. I'll stick it up as another post and see if it can be deciphered! Blinking ancestors, why couldn't they all stick to one name and write clearly!!!!!
I will try to sit down over the weekend and do a new bit of family tree to see if all these new little Margaret Culcheths work out date-wise with the rest of the family. Confusing bunch.
Frodo
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Here is a related thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,633802.msg4816412.html#msg4816412
Margp
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Thanks MargP, that's me too, I like to try to attach things from all sides ;)
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Not sure which board to post this to!
Just some notes I have been making whilst following the threads:
The Margaret Culcheth born c 1814/15 who married John Louis Grille was born Burscough, Lancashire according to later census and her father was named as Ralph Culcheth on her marriage. So Ralph must have been the brother of Margaret Culcheth born c.1772. Given that there seems to have been a name change from Culshaw to Culcheth according to Thomas Smiths will there is the following baptism:
Baptism: 3 Aug 1814 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Margaret Culshaw - Daughter of Ralph Culshaw & Mary
Abode: Burscough
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: J. Williamson Curate
Now back to Deborah Smith born c.1747 – 1825, brother Rev. Thomas Smith who died 1820 and their sister who Thomas named as Elizabeth Culshaw/Calshaw alias Culcheth/Calcheth in his will. We know that Elizabeth had a daughter Margaret . There are the following baptisms that may be relevant:
19 Apr 1772 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Margaret Culshaw - Daughter of James Culshaw & Elizabeth
Abode: Burs[cough]
(This ties in with your Margaret Culcheth spinster who died 1853 aged 81)
28 Nov 1773 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Ann Culshaw - Daughter of James Culshaw & Elizabeth
Abode: Burs[cough]
26 Mar 1775 St Peter and St Paul, Ormskirk, Lancashire, England
Ralph Culshaw - Son of James Culshaw & Elizabeth
Abode: Burs[cough]
Possible father for the Margaret Culcheth baptised 1814 who married John Grille.
The only problem is I can`t find a marriage for a James Culshaw to an Elizabeth Smith The only one is a James Culshaw who married a Betty Smith at St. George the Martyr, Queens Square , London on 18th May, 1769.
Mo
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Wow Mosiefish you have been busy! Thank you :)
Thomas SMITH's sister Elizabeth was recorded as Betty originally and I guess it's as likely that she could be in London as in Liverpool given that she was born in a tiny little village in Dorset - Sturminster Marshall. According to Thomas' will (if I've managed to read it properly) Elizabeth had 3 children who he was leaving money to:
Robert Culshaw (alias Culcheth)
Anne Holcroft
Margaret Culshaw (alias Culcheth)
I'm convinced the three you have found are the right ones and Robert / Ralph thing is just one of those name things that seem to happen all too easily in family history searches!
I have also found a will for the 81 year old Margaret Culcheth who died in Longfleet Poole (if she'd been living with her aunt in 1825 in Parkstone then Sterte / Longfleet is only down the road) and she leaves everything to her niece Margaret Grille nee Colcheth. Sorry if I've already said that bit of info already, I should calm down and stop posting in so many places!
Thanks SO much for your help, that's brilliant. I know you've helped me before and I seriously appreciate it :) :) :)
Frodo
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Haaaaaaaang on a minute! I knew I recognised the name Ralph from somewhere.....Ann Culcheth marries Richard HOLCROFT in 1810 and they have Deborah Smith HOLCROFT.....she grows up and marries William CULCHETH.....his father is ....ye, you guessed it.....Ralph CULCHETH....ARGH! So they were first cousins........oh dear......