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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: DeniseA on Saturday 26 January 13 00:58 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I have a few marriages and deaths i need to check some are in the St George Hanover Square district. findmypast has a pay per view option, my question will this give me the details of the marriages/deaths or just the same info i can find on freebmd.org.uk. Marriage in question is Dec quarter 1899 Elizabeth Trist St George Hanover Square volume 1a page 1020 with options for spouse Frederick George Pike or Rowland White. Elizabeth had two addition marriages the next one to an unknown Read from the Ramsgate Kent area. This same Elizabeth could be the sister of my GGrandmother Alma Trist. Any help much appreciated.
Thx in advance
Denise
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Hi Denise, cannot as of yet locate that marriage, but I see you are unfortunate that their are 2 Elizabeth's on the same page on Freebmd!
This looks to be the one who married Frederick Pike:-
1901 Census
Frederick Pike 24 occ Smith Fitter b Westminster
Elizabeth 23 b Westminster
Alma 3 months b Pimlico
Residing at 51, Pulford Street, St George Hanover Square
Census Ref RG13/90/35/26
Keyboard86
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Thank you so much for checking that for me Keyboard86
Yes, with both the women being Elizabeth it frustrated my attempts at browsing the 1901 they are both the same age too; what are the chances? :-\
The child Alma would have been named after my GGrandmother :)
This gives me a married surname to look for the Read marriage
Thankyou again
Denise
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The index that you are looking at on findmypast for the Elizabeth Trist marriage gives no more information than freebmd. The 'view' option merely shows the GRO index page.
Rosie
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Thanks Rosie, that's what I was afraid of, don't want to pay for what I can get free and I'm in Canada so can't nip down to the local library :)
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Marriage in question is Dec quarter 1899 Elizabeth Trist St George Hanover Square volume 1a page 1020 with options for spouse Frederick George Pike or Rowland White.
Mother's maiden names are shown in the birth index from Sep Qtr 1911 onwards.
You can use the index to search for any PIKE children born to a mother with the maiden name TRIST, and then for any WHITE children in the same way. It's not a foolproof method because one or both couples may have had no children after 1911, but it may give you an indication.
In order to be 100% sure, you will need to purchase the 1899 marriage certificate. The marriage information is not online, and won't be at least until FindMyPast have finished digitising the Westminster parish registers. Even then it may not be online, if the marriage was a civil one or in a nonconformist chapel.
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Hi
St George Hanover Square is a registration district as well as a parish in its own right. There are other churches as well listed here
http://www.westminster.gov.uk/workspace/assets/publications/Info-Sheet-05-Reg-Districts-1276253985.pdf
The page range for marriages in that quarter is 893-1107. The indexes are usually compiled by Anglican parishes in a certain order, followed by Quaker, Jewish then registrar attended (usually Catholic & non-conformist) then register offices.
The entry you are interested is 1020 which is more towards the end of the page range so may fall outside of the Anglican page range and may not ever appear online either through Ancestry or Find My Past.
Dawn
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Possible candidate?
1891 census 40 Garden Street Westminster
Susan Trist 34 wid Launderess
Elizabeth 13
Alma 11 all born Regent Street
same address
Harry White 25 Gen.Dealer shop
Mary 22
Harry 1
John 23 brother " all born Westminster
1901 Census 56 Horseferry Road Westminster
Susan Trist 45 wid Launderess
Alma 21 Ironer
Sarah A Scales 63 wid Ironer Boarder all born Westminster
Mary A Greatorex wid 74 Boarder Burnham Bucks
8/11/1874 St.Mary Lambeth
Walter Browse Trist French polisher Pratt Street father Browst Trist Carver/Gilder
Susan Edmonds Pratt Street father Robert Edmonds Carpenter
Proff. witnesses
Walter died St.Geo. Hanover Sq Westminster 1888
Walter Browse trist born 2/11/1853 bapt 20/11/1853 St.Giles in the fields Holborn
Parents Browse & Emma 3 New Compton Street occ. Gilder.
Jennifer
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Alma Henrietta Pike birth reg Mar qtr 1901 St.Geo. Hanover Sq
Addmission to Millbank School 11/4/1904
Alma Henrietta Pike father Frederick 83 Ponsonby Street date of birth 23/12/1900
Jennifer
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Hi again Denise, what's the story re the further marriage to a "Read" as I cannot locate one?
Keyboard86
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WOW!!
Thank you all for the additional information, these are my people :D
Walter Brouse/Browse Trist was a name given me by an Aunt as the father of her Gran Alma, she remembered a sister Elizabeth but didn't know a lot about her. I found the marriage for Walter and Susan using freebmd and a birth for Elizabeth but am always cautious on the pay sites if it's only going to give info I already have, now I have the names of Walter and Susan's parents.
Jennifer, on the marriage for Walter and Susan I'm a little confused about the Carver/Gilder part?
Keyboard86, this inquiry originated with me finding a post online for someone else researching "Walter Trist on the Marriage certificate of Elizabeth Read widow as her father. The marriage was in 1923 to John Bushell." (italics are mine) in Ramsgate, Kent, which is where my paternal family hails from primarily. The Reads and Coopers were both families pretty much dedicated to service on the Ramsgate lifeboat. Trist is not a common name and both the father and daughter had names that I had in my family so I contacted the gal who was inquiring, I wasn't able to find a Trist + Read marriage but did find the Trist + Pike/White marriages and was thinking along the lines Elizabeth Trist becomes a Pike we know now then a Read then a Bushell
LOL just read that it sounds like a garden :P
So I'm still looking, they may not be the same family but who knows, it's a mystery begging to be solved and this Trist side both Elizabeth and Alma are certainly keeping me busy.
Sincere Thanks again from Canada
Denise.
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Hi again Denise, I think the "Carver/Gilder" phrase appertains to his occupation?
As far as Elizabeth Pike is concerned it looks now the marriage was a Trist/Pike, another daughter can be found in 1913 Lambeth if you follow the instructions given!
Keyboard86
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Oh Ok, thx for the carver/gilder phrase info
Frederick still alive in 1911 census and I just found that birth for Violet so if Frederick died some time after 1913 it's still possible that Elizabeth Pike re married a Read between at least 1913 and before 1923 if they are the same people :/ My reasoning is Alma married a Fletcher in Faversham, Kent was in Canada where my Nan was born I have them in 1911 Toronto Canada Alma then married James Dean in Ramsgate 1930. I know it's a long shot but that makes it all the more fun ;)
Denise
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There is a birth for a George A READ with mother's maiden name of TRIST in 1918 Southwark ........ bit out of the areas being looked at though near to Frederick George PIKE's origins so it may be worth holding on to. It could be that Elizabeth (if it is the correct one) had parted from Frederick PIKE but wasn't actually widowed or divorced when she became involved with Mr READ .......... divorce being terribly expensive thus rare for the more working class folk back then. It was also around WW1 :-\
Having seen other queries on the internet ie. http://www.ramsgatehistory.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=556.0 regarding the marriage of John BUSHELL to Elizabeth READ nee TRIST I notice that Mr BUSHELL was a long standing resident and publican of the town so I would suggest local papers might be a good source ie. an obituary for him and/or even a wedding report. He doesn't look to be buried in St Lawrence (if the transcriptions are complete) http://www.janetandrichardsgenealogy.co.uk/ramsgate_parish_register_extract%20-%20St%20L%20burials%201931-40.html so it may be worthwhile contacting Thanet district council to see whether they have a record of his burial, whether there is anybody else in the plot with him and whether there was/is a headstone?
http://www.thanet.gov.uk/community__living/deaths_funerals__cremations/cemeteries.aspx
Ramsgate did have a comprehensive local studies collection but I'm not sure what the position is since the great fire of a few years ago so it may be worthwhile to contact them and enquire about local newspapers (Margate may well have them) http://www.kent.gov.uk/KCC.Libraries.Web.Sites.Public/Default.aspx
Casalguidi :)
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Hi
Frederick Pike was my G.Grandfather's brother. I have his marriage cert. (25th Dec 1899) which states that Elizabeth Trist fathers name was George Trist (dec) Bricklayer.
So it looks like this Elizabeth isn't yours, I'm afraid.
I have found that several of the siblings in my tree(s) all called their children with the same family names, which could be the case if George was related.
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So it looks like this Elizabeth isn't yours, I'm afraid.
The problem is, if she isn't the daughter of Susan (as above) then who was she as it's difficult to find another one that fits ???
May we ask if the marriage witnesses or address on the certificate are any help ???
Casalguidi :)
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Thanks Casalguidi,
I hadn't seen that post on the Ramsgate History Board. This is the same gal I contacted. As I read the post and saw that John Bushell's first wife was a Knight and Elizabeth gave her address as 29 Camden Square, Ramsgate it has convinced me even more that they could be the same Elizabeth.
Knight is another name known within the lifeboat circle as well as Read and Cooper, these families all have intermingled marriages. I googled the address because it sounded familiar my heart almost jumped out my throat on googlemap as memories of Visiting my Aunt Lola and Aunt Vi on that very same street came flooding back.
I will definitely hold onto your George A READ info, when I saw his year of birth my mind immediately thought WW1 too :-\
Thank you Peb21 I appreciate the input :) So we have to rule out the Elizabeth Trist who married Frederick Pike? This doesn't change the fact that Elizabeth Read (widow) who married John Bushell in 1923 gave her father's name as Walter Trist also a bricklayer. I'm wondering what happened to the mother's names then? It is also curious that your Frederick and Elizabeth called their first daughter Alma which you have to admit is not a common name and my GGran was also an Alma, maybe there is a connection between your Trist family and mine.
I have just restarted this research after a couple years break, I was neglecting my living for my dead so I'm a bit rusty :-[
I appreciate all your input
Regards all from Canada
Denise
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I have looked for a marriage for a George but have not found one, so perhaps his name was wrong?.
I found the death for Walter in 1888. But nothing at all for a George.
Frederick Pike died in 1944 in Barnet the informant was his daughter in law.
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Hi there
I am the "gal" with the info about the Read / Bushell marriage. John Bushell is buried in the Ramsgate cemetery, in the same grave as his first wife, Harriet. There is no headstone His obit in the local paper says he left a "widow and grown up family". I have a copy of the Read /Bushell marriage certificate. As a family we were unaware of this second marriage, though my father was 16 when John B died. If only I had asked more questions? I have my doubts about the Browse Trist link to my problem, but am giving up full time work soon so will have more time to tackle the problem.
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Hi there, don't know if you are still following this tangled web?
I went on the new 1939 Register, and found an Elizabeth Bushell, widow, of the right age, living in Hendon with a Frederick Charles Pike. I got his birth certificate and it confirms that the Frederick Charles is the son of Frederick George Pike and Elizabeth, ne TRIST.
All I need to do now is find a Pike / Read "marriage" and it is all sorted.......
Has anyone else found anymore info??
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Hi lynfitz1
Denise who started this topc hasn't been online here since march 2013, before your last post.
Because of her settings, she won't get another email notification to say that you have posted here.
If you want to try and make contact with her again, try sending a personal message.
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Dawn
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Hi Ladies,
This is bizarre! I just found a post of yours, lynfitz, on the ramsgate history forum, re: John, and came here to refresh my memory on what had been discovered. This is great news; I appreciate your persistence in this endeavor. I was fairly convinced they were the same Elizabeth, there were too many "coincidences" for it to be otherwise, but had no evidence to confirm the hunch 😕
When I was back in Margate, 2014, I met a local researcher, I'll contact him and see if he is able to find any info on a Read/Pike marriage and let you know if he turns anything up 😀
Denise
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Hi Denise, I got really excited when the certificate came through, and went back over all I know about Elizabeth. It has all gone downhill from there, and I am now more confused than ever!
The marriage certificate for Elizabeth and Frederick George Pike gives her father as George Trist ( not Walter) but he is still a bricklayer.
There is a birth of Elizabeth to Walter Trist and Susan Edmonds (2 Sep 1877)
So was her father Walter or George ?
I cannot find the family in the 1881 census, nor can I find any birth records for Alma (Elizabeths sister)
I have found records of a Frederick George Pike and an Elizabeth in the Canadian census, but that says they went out in 1905, which was the year Frederick Charles was born, and I do have them on a 1911 census.
I will keep in touch, I need to contact a distant relative who has some letters which may throw some light on this. I have also sent off for the birth Certificate of the George A Read ( mother Trist) and will let you know if that is our Elizabeth.
Do let me know if you find anything.
Cheers
Lyn
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Hi, I have come across a 1881 census which could or could not be Walter B Crist (Trist). Although the baby is Emma not Alma, but that could be that the person misheard the name?. The area they lived in was St Pancras..
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Very late to the party here ;D. In case anyone wants it - RG11/184/80/16 is the ref. Walter is a cloth worker though. All family born Marylebone [although it's all a ditto & the enumerator may have left out Walter's pob....].
Surname does look like a 'T' not a 'C' to me; here's another 'T' from the same page.
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Thanks for the 1881 census info.
I have the birth certificate for the George A Read in Southwark..... George Arthur was the son of Elizabeth Trist and a George Read, who had been in the Essex Regiment.
Still no luck with a marriage of Trist/Pike and Read, and now there is another child to add into the puzzle.
Also I cannot find Alma's birth........
Any ideas?