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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Standfast on Friday 25 January 13 20:46 GMT (UK)
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Hi i wonder if anyone can help with this.
It's first page of the Testament Dative of Duncane Grant, and his wife Jonet Gawy dated 10th July 1639, which is 7 pages long, help with this first page would be a great help.
I've figured out bits of it, but it's mainly the dates i'm not sure of particularly the days, and the months where it's mentioned.
the other parts that i'm stuck on are.....
The last part of line 4 after the word tyme.
All of line 5 except the words Duncane Grant.
All of line 6 except the words Umquile Jonet
All of line 7 except the Jonets surname Gawy
All of line 8 except Johne Glen and
All of line 10 except Umquile Duncane
Line 11 after the word spouse
The date in line 13 - i think it's the 25 January 1639
The last word of line 14
All of line 16 except the words Duncane Grant
All of line 17 except the words Jon glen
all of lines 18, 19, 21, 22, & 23.
Thanks for any help
Standfast
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Just a quick glance over the first part. The book must be tightly bound as the right edge is not all visible.
The testament dative and Invent[tar of the gudes]
geir sowmes of money and debtis perte[ning to the umquhile]
Duncane Grant tailzeor burges of Edr [ and of the umquhile]
Jonet Gawy his spouse the tyme of y[r]
deceis viz the sd Duncane Grant d[eceisit the]
yeir of God 1639 yeirs [ ] the sd [Jonet]
Gawy upone the yeir of God Jajvi & thret[tie ]
Faithfullie maid & gevin up be the [ ]
Johne [ ] tailzeor burgeses of Edr [executors]
dative decernit and creditors to the sd [Duncane]
Grant & Jonet Gawy his spouse [Item]
the said umquhile Duncan Grant be his [ ]
subscrt wt his hand of the dait the xxv [ ]
therewith grantit him to have borrowit [from ]
Thomas Gla[ ] tailzeor burges of the sd bu[rgh ]
Worth looking them up in the printed lists of burgesses of Edinburgh. Using that you can often find the names of fathers, wives and fathers-in-law etc.
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Had a quick look at the burgess roll. Duncan Grant, tailor, was admitted as a burgess (musket), by right of his wife, daughter to the late Robert Gawie, tailor, on 30th July 1628.
Robert Gawy or Gawie, tailor, was admitted as a burgess (pike and corslet), as apprentice to the late John Douglas, tailor, on 7th September 1602. James Edmiston stood surety for extents and watches.
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Also found a document dated 13th October 1607 which refers to the late George Gawy, tailor in the Canongate, his wife, Marion Gudlatt, and their children, William and John. Perhaps related?
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Had a quick look at the burgess roll. Duncan Grant, tailor, was admitted as a burgess (musket), by right of his wife, daughter to the late Robert Gawie, tailor, on 30th July 1628.
Robert Gawy or Gawie, tailor, was admitted as a burgess (pike and corslet), as apprentice to the late John Douglas, tailor, on 7th September 1602. James Edmiston stood surety for extents and watches.
Thanks for that, i had already found that in the Roll of Edinburgh burgesses which confirmed beyond doubt that i had the correct birth entry For Jonet Gawie, who i had suspected was the wife of Duncane Grant, they are my 10 x Gt Grandparents.
This has taken me 4 years to unravell the mystery, and confirm the correct spelling of her surname, which is given on her marriage and 2 of her childrens baptisms as Jonet Gay, and on another Jonet Gai, her parents marriage is given as Robert Gaii, and Jonet Edmestoun, James Edmiston/ Edmistoun, appears as a wittness on all 3 of her childrens baptisms.
I have another question if you could help.
The date given as Jajvi & thret[tie, i take to mean that the year of Jonets death was 1630, am i correct in assuming that ?
Her first born child was born in 1630, the last in 1633, The entries for their children in the OPR's are for baptisms, and make no mention of the date of birth, but i would assume - though i know it isn't the case for all baptisms, that the baptisms took place shortly after birth.
Given that likley hood, i would guess that Jonet was still alive in 1633.
It appears to me also that the testament, is reffering to her as a co- testamentar, would that be case if she had died 9 years previously ?
Could the clerk have written Jajvi & thret[tie in error, and should have been Jajvi & thret[tie three making it 1633
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Also found a document dated 13th October 1607 which refers to the late George Gawy, tailor in the Canongate, his wife, Marion Gudlatt, and their children, William and John. Perhaps related?
I think it likley is, i've seen a George Gawie in the OPR indexes, but haven't got so far yet as to research any of the extended family. Where did you find the documet ?
The name Gawie, as i think it should be correctly spelt is quite rare, in the Roll of Burgess there appears another directly above Robert - Alexander of the Guild of Bretheren, the entry is for 7 Dec 1493, given the rareity of the name i think another possible relative - how on earth i'll be able to prove that one i don't know ! From what i've found the name Gawie appears to be of Dutch origin.
Thanks for all your help fantastic !
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As I mentioned in my original post, the book is bound in a way that hides some of the words at the right hand side of the text. I have used [ ] to show bits there which can't be seen in the digitised text. Where it is obvious what should be written in the hidden bits, I've reconstructed them within [ ]. The line with the year of Jonet's death ends Jajvi & thret. The last word obviously continues [tie ] to make thirty, but there is more hidden in the tight binding. It could well be threttie three or fower or fyve etc. Jaj is a way of writing M (= 1000).
This is not a testament testamentar made by the deceased (containing a will), but a testament dative. Creditors have been made executors dative to allow them to sort out matters and probably recover debts. This kind of testament can be made quite a while after the death of the deceased.
The document I referred to is held by the National Archives of Scotland. It's catalogue number is GD45/17/52. The Archives have an on-line catalogue. If you look it up, put the spelling "Gawy" into the first search box. It will come up with a few other Gawy entries, mostly, if I remember correctly, from Stirling.
As your Duncan Grant was made a burgess by right of his wife, it would suggest that his father was not a burgess of Edinburgh.
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Black's Surnames, indeed has Gawie as a Stirling name. John Gawie was one of the maisters of the hospital there in 1600. Robert Gawy, a burgess of Edinburgh in 1606 & a Thomas Gawie in Todlochie, Strathauchine, Brechin in 1612. The name Gaw is given as Gall.
Skoosh.
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Gr2, Skoosh,
Yes it certainly looks like there are quite a few from the stirling area, and spreading out - i've found in the OPR indexes, births in Abercorn, as well as Stirling and Edinburgh, and others which may be variations on the spelling from pencaitland, and Dysert.
I've pasted all the info from the NAS catalouge onto a word doc for future reference.
I've trawled the NAS Catalouge quite a bit over the last few years, and also found that there are letters from David Murray a merchant burgess of Edinburgh ( who appears in this testament, and as a wittness to one of their childrens baptisms ) to the Lady Lillias Murray ( the Elder ) widow of sir John Grant 5th Laird of Freuchy, in which he states that 'Duncan Grant the old tailor is dead leaving two bonnie lassies aged 7 & 8 ( this would be correct they are Jonet b. 1632, and Christiane b.1633 ) and perhaps she could send something to assist them ' there are also other letters directly from Duncane to the Lady lillias, and some accounts from him to her.
I really need to get up to the NAS, and investigate this properly, i think i could spend a month in there, and still not have enough time !
Thanks for all your help
Standfast
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I happened to be in Ayr this morning, so looked up the Inquisitionum ad capellam Domini Regis retornatarum abbreviatio for you. The Carnegie Library there has a copy on its shelves. I found these entries which might interest you (maybe you already have them).
(923) Apr. 30. 1644
JEANNA EDMONDSTOUN sponsa Joannis Measoune mercatoris burgensis de Edinburgh, haeres portionaria Jacobi Edmondston sartoris burgensis de Edinburgh, patris, - in tenementis in Edinburgh.
(924) Apr. 30. 1644
MARGARETA EDMONDSTOUNE sponsa Jacobi Dicksoun scribae, et AGNETA EDMONSTOUN sponsa Davidis Ackinheid scribae, haeredes portionariae praedicti Jacobi Edmondstoun, patris, - in tenementis in Edinburgh praedictis.
Also I found the following entry in the Inquisitiones de Tutela:
(1186) April 15. 1606
WILIELMUS GAWY in Scrogtounheid in Douglas, - propinquior agnatus, id est consanguineus ex parte patris JENETAE GAWY filiae legitimae quondam Roberti Gawy scissoris ac burgensis de Edinburgh.
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Wow ! :o i certainly haven't got this !
I copied it into a latin translator -below.
I can't thank you enough for this GR2.
Translation.
Jeanne EDMONDSTOUN spouse John Measoune merchant burgess of Edinburgh, heir of James Edmondston proportioned sartoris burgess of Edinburgh, his father - in the tenements in Edinburgh.
(924), Apr. 30. 1644
MARGARET EDMONDSTOUNE bride Dicksoun secretary James and Agnes EDMONSTOUN Ackinheid secretary David spouse, heirs portioner Edmondstoun aforesaid James, father, - in the tenements in Edinburgh said.
Also 1 found the following entry into the study of the Defense:
(1186) April 15. 1606
WILIELMUS GAWY Scrogtounheid on the Douglas - closer cousin, that is relative on the father JENETAE GAWY legitimate daughter of the deceased Robert Gawy scissoris and burgess of Edinburgh.
The information i can immediatly take from this, is in narrowing down the date of Robert Gawy(ies)
death to no later than the date of this entry April 15th 1606, Jonet would not have reached her 3rd birthday by that time.
Questions ! ....
Do you know the defnitions of these words -
sartoris, and Scrogtounheid - Scrogtounheid looks like old Scots Scrogtounheid, a place name ?
Thanks so much for looking this up GR2
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Jean Edmondston, spouse of John Meason, merchant, burgess of Edinburgh, heir portioner to James Edmondston, tailor, burgess of Edinburgh, her father, - in tenements in Edinburgh.
Margaret Edmondston, spouse of James Dickson, writer, and Agnes Edmondston, spouse of David Aikenhead, writer, heirs portioners to the foresaid James Edmondston, their father, - in the foresaid tenements in Edinburgh.
An inquest has been held and the jurors have returned to chancery a retour with the above findings. The girls are three sisters and each is an heir portioner, i.e. each has a part or portion of the whole property. Tenements in the sense here mean holdings of land with or without buildings on them. Writer here is in its legal sense.
Will add more after I have my tea!
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William Gawy in Scrogto(u)nhead in Douglas, - nearest male relative, that is a blood relative on her father's side, to Jenet Gawy legitimate daughter of the late Robert Gawy tailor and burgess of Edinburgh.
This must be your Jonet. Her father has died and as she is under 12 she is a "pupil" in need of a "tutor" (i.e. a man who can take resposibility for her legal and financial affairs). The jurors on the inquest have found that her nearest male relative (exact relationship not specified, but unlikely to be a grandfather as it would probably say) is William Gawy in Scrogto(u)nhead in Douglas, Lanarkshire. As it says "in Scrogtounheid", he does not own it, only lives there. His occupation is not stated, so it could be anything. At this period farms were not enclosed and the fermtouns had tradesmen such as weavers, tailors etc. staying there too.
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I really can't thank you enough for all this GR2, i never expected any of this !
Another question.
If Jonet is in need of a 'Tutor' ( i have seen this sort of note, and presumed it to be just that - a private teacher - ) to take care of her personal, and legal affairs, then would it follow that her Mother Jonet Edmistoun was also dead by this date, or was it neccesary for the child to have a male take this role.
Thanks again
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Her mother may well still have been alive when a tutor was apponted. Remarriage was common with the high mortality rate. Might be worth looking for traces of a second husband at some point.
There are quite a lot of sources available for Edinburgh genealogy. One set of my own ancestors moved to Banffshire from Edinburgh in the 1570s. I have been able to trace them (Adamsons and Turings) back to the early 15th century in Edinburgh with relative ease. They were certainly merchants and were often bailies and councilors and had dealings with the crown, but sources where I found them include the Register of Sasines, the Register of Deeds, the Register of the Great Seal, the Register of the Privy Seal, the Acts of the Lords in Council, the Acts of Parliament, the Lord High Treasurer's accounts, the Exchequer Rolls, the protocol books of the various notaries, the Register of Charters of St Giles, the Register of Charters of Holyrood Abbey, the Burgh accounts, the Burgh Council minutes. Many of these have either been published in full, as extracts or have indices published. I have found that if you look everywhere it is surprising what you can find.
If the late George Gawy, tailor in the Canongate, who was dead by October 1607 with young sons, William and John, was still alive in April 1606 and if he was a relative of your Robert, then he is obviously not as close a relative as William in Scrogtounhead. That's two ifs, of course.
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Thanks for all of this.
I've been researching my family history for nearly 15 years now, and i've spent 4 years on just this generation.
It's easy looking back with hindsight, but it's knowing where to look to confirm BMD's in the OPR's when there's no definate connection when so many varying versions of a surname is given.
You've given me a huge amount to work with, and new sources i'd never considered here.
Again i can't thank you enough.
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For some reason I was not able to see the right edge of the testament and assumed it was because the book was tightly bound. The computer now allows me to see the full width of the page. The "modify" button seems to have disappeared, however, so I am not able to change my original post, so I have copied it again and added the ends of the lines which were hidden before. So Jonet did die in 1633 and the date of the bond tells us Duncan was alive on 25th January 1639.
The testament dative and Inventar of the gudes
geir sowmes of money and debtis pertening to the umquhile
Duncane Grant tailzeor burges of Edr and to umquhile
Jonet Gawy his spouse the tyme of yr deceiss quha
deceisit viz the sd Duncane Grant deceisit upone the
yeir of God 1639 yeirs [ ] the sd umquhile Jonet
Gawy upone the yeir of God Jajvi & threttie three
Faithfullie maid & gevin up be the Johne Glen and
Johne [ ] tailzeor burgeses of Edr onlie exrs
dative decernit and creditors to the sdis umquhile Duncane
Grant & Jonet Gawy his spouse In [ ]
the said umquhile Duncan Grant be his band and obligation
subscrt wt his hand of the dait the xxv day of Jar 1639
therewith grantit him to have borrowit and [ ] from
Thomas Gla[ ] tailzeor burges of the sd burgh the sowme of
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GR2, thanks so much for all the trouble you've gone to helping me out with this, it's pushed my research forward a long way.
Complete speculation i know, and no way of ever proving it, but i now think it's a real possibility that as Christiane her third, and last child was baptised on the 29th December 1633, that Jonets death was very possibly as a result of child birth.
I had previously been working on the theory - again no likleyhood of ever proving it, that Jonet and Duncane died within months of each other, maybe as a result of one of the many disease epidemics that were going around at the time. Thanks to you i can discount that one.
Many thanks.