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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Tom Langley on Friday 25 January 13 18:40 GMT (UK)
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My ancestor John Younger married Isobel Collingwood in Stitchel, Roxburghshire, Scotland on 29/06/1697. The only baptism i can find locally for a John Younger is in 1682 also in Stitchel to a Robert and Helen Younger.
If its the same John it would probably make him 15/16 at the time of marriage. Is this likely or is it probably the wrong John? I know people married very young in those days.
Tom
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Can anyone help?
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From the GRO Scotland website:
Before 1929, Scots law followed Roman law in allowing a girl to marry at twelve years of age and a boy at fourteen, without any requirement for parental consent. However, according to one early 20th-century source*, marriage in Scotland at such young ages was in practice almost unknown. No doubt if marriages between children had become common, there would have been public pressure to raise the legal minimum age of marriage earlier than 1929. The Age of Marriage Act 1929 (applying in Scotland, England & Wales but not in Northern Ireland) made void any marriage between persons either of whom was under the age of sixteen. Sixteen remains the lower age-limit today, contained in the current legislation, the Marriage (Scotland) Act 1977. Scots law still has no requirement for parental consent. *Source: Vital registration: a manual of the law and practice concerning the registration of births, deaths and marriages. (G T Bisset-Smith. 1st edition. Edinburgh: William Green & Sons, 1902)
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Thank you for the information. Do you personally this its likely to be correct?
Tom
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If it's the GRO, then I reckon it's true!
Don't forget that the reason English couples eloped to Gretna Green (and other places) was to take advantage of Scottish Law! ;D
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Tom, I have to say in all my time of Scottish research, I have never come across a 12 year old bride or a 14 year old groom ::)
I haven't seen the actual official number of marriages by age group, but I would guess that brides in that age range would have been a really small number....(same for the boys in the lower age band).
Monica
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Hi All
Nothing whatever to do with this post but one couple who where very young when they were married.
"Mary queen of Scots was 15 when she married Frances the 2nd of France he was 14"
How the other half lives.
Yours Aye
BruceL
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The only contribution I can make here is from my own family. My great-great-great-grandparents Janet Smart and William Jaffray were married in Stirlingshire in 1779. Janet was 12, William 49.
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Hi Graham,
I have never seen a gap of 37 years before, that is something. How did you get the ages, was it in an Old Parish Record?
Tom
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One cousin of an ancestor, a farmer called James Imlay married three times. His last marriage, in 1841, was to a woman aged 23. He was 74. None of the marriages produced any children.
I have come across girls being married at 15, but men tend to be older and able to maintain a wife and family before marrying.
It is always important to be sure that you have the right person. There is the danger of looking for the birth/baptism of someone's wife and just assuming, because of the name and location, that you have the correct one and thinking it is fine because she is 12 and could marry then. It might be someone else.
Re Mary Queen of Scots. An uncle of mine, Robert Reid, was involved in arranging her marriage and was at the ceremony in Notre Dame.
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As GR2 mentioned, men had to be a little older before marrying. In the age before birth control, a baby could be expected very soon after marriage, and more babies would follow at one to two year intervals generally speaking. A man had to be able to support a large family right away. If he was an apprentice at some trade, he couldn't marry until he had finished the apprenticeship...that was the case in England at least and I assume the same for Scotland.
A woman had to have learned household management as well...she had to be able to cook, sew and care for children.
The people at the IGI have determined the average age for marriage was about (iirc) 24 for men and 21 for women. So although marriage was permitted at young ages, it wasn't practical. I think you might find that nobility "married" young but it was only betrothal, and although legally bound to her spouse a 12 year old bride was not expected to begin marital relations until much older. Stan Mapstone would be able to tell you more about this sort of thing.
Cheers,
China
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although marriage was permitted at young ages, it wasn't practical. I think you might find that nobility "married" young but it was only betrothal, and although legally bound to her spouse a 12 year old bride was not expected to begin marital relations until much older.
Margaret Beaufort was 13 when she gave birth to Henry Tudor, the future HenryVII. However, the significant point for her, Mary Stuart and other members of the aristocracy is that they had access to nutirition roughly equivalent to modern standards. For most girls puberty would be much nearer to 20 than to 12, so while the law might allow marriage biology would probably make it unlikely.
The above notwithstanding, my wife's gt-gt aunt was married at 14 in Glasgow in 1883 and the baby was born a week after her 15th birthday. She gave her age as 17 but the family knew better. The, possibly reluctant, husband was head of the school where she had been a pupil teacher and her uncle (the Provost) was on the school board.
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I did wonder if he may have been born a lot earlier than his baptism, but in those days people seemed to have their children baptised quite soon after birth, because of the high infant mortality at the time.
But i suppose this could still be a possibility?
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The, possibly reluctant, husband was head of the school where she had been a pupil teacher and her uncle (the Provost) was on the school board.
Oops :P
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Hi all,
I have a possible lead that my 5th great-grandparents were James Mackay and Janet Sinclair who lived in and around Thurso, Caithness. It is looking like he was born in about 1754 according to army discharge records, but I think I have found her parish baptism record and it is dated 1743, making her 11 years older than him!
My second great-grandmother was two years older than her husband, but this one is stretching it a bit too far. I also had a 3rd great-grandad who it is confirmed was 19 years older than his wife, he being born in 1812 and she in 1831. However, it was normal in those days for the man to be a lot older than his wife, not the other way round.....
Is it even conceivable that a woman in those days would be 11 years older than her husband, with him being married to her at the minimum legal age of 14 ?
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Related thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=809101.0
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If there was a few bob involved or a wee bit of land, age was irrelevant! ;D
Skoosh.
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If there was a few bob involved or a wee bit of land, age was irrelevant! ;D
Skoosh.
Well, I think that both of them could well have been connected to the nobility in the area, in fact I am pretty certain with James Mackay. On the OPR for his eldest child in 1768 one of the witnesses was William Mackay of Kinloch who in turn was a great-grandson of Donald Mackay, 1st Lord Reay. However, it is recorded that William Mackay of Kinloch died without children and I agree with this, but I have confirmed that he was married and had a step-grandson named James Mackay who I think is the same man in question who was descended from a different branch of the Mackay chief's family, as per the Book of Mackay.
James Mackay and Janet Sinclair lived in the county of Caithness, and the Earl of Caithness was the chief of the Sincalir family. Furthermore the Earl of Caithness at the time who commanded a company in the 76th Foot had a Sergeant serving under him who was called James Mackay and I think possibly the same man.
Anyway, must not go on. The point is that if it was the man who was 11 years older than his wife then it would be easier to accept, but for the woman to be 11 years older than her husband does seem a bit odd.
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Hello Graham,
I too am very interested in finding both William Jaffray and Janet Smarts birth records. I know there are two records for Janet which put her in the 10-12 age bracket but I can find no trace of a William being born on 29 August 1730. Would love to see a copy of the record please. William and Janet are my daughter-in-laws 4th Great Grandparents.
Regards Joan Churchill
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The only contribution I can make here is from my own family. My great-great-great-grandparents Janet Smart and William Jaffray were married in Stirlingshire in 1779. Janet was 12, William 49.
I too am very interested in finding both William Jaffray and Janet Smarts birth records. I know there are two records for Janet which put her in the 10-12 age bracket but I can find no trace of a William being born on 29 August 1730.
What is the evidence for the Janet Smart who married William Jaffray being only 12 years old?
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Sketchy, is the answer to that! There's a headstone, some unsourced family tree notes from early 20th century. I have an unsourced note that William was baptised 29th Aug 1730 at St Ninians. The limited exploration I've done of St Ninians has been confusing - lots of Jaffray families all using the same Christian names so very difficult to untangle.
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What exactly does the headstone say?
Noting that William and Janet's younger children were baptised in Airth, could she have been the Janet Smart baptised in Airth in 1750?
There is a baptism of William Jaffery on 29 August 1730 in St Ninians. If you search Scotland's People for Jaffray you wouldn't find that.
But that William J*ff*r*y would have been 60 when Janet Smart's youngest child was born, which also looks unusual.
There's a baptism of another William Jaffery in St Ninians in 1746, who looks like a possible candidate.
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The headstone gives date of death for William and Janet Smart and also their daughter Margaret. There are two birth dates for Janet Smart 11 September 1767 (Thomas Smart & Mary Mitchell parents), 4 Jan 1769 (James Smart & Elizabeth Paterson parents). Both these dates make her way to young to be married and having children. I cannot find any other Janet Smart being Christened in the time frame that would match. Regarding William on their first childs Christening records it states that the witnesses were Robert Jaffray and Will Jaffray Senior. Now I have researched Williams whose father is also William and found one born 20 June 1745 to William Jaffray and Margaret Allison. What are your thoughts on this. Most info going around has Williams father as John Jaffray and the mother either Margaret Mitchell or Margaret Gillespi they put the birth date of 29 August 1730, but I cannot find any record of this.
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Can you tell me where you found the birth of Janet Smart in 1750 please as I havent found that.
Joan
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Also where can I find the William Jaffery birth in 1730 please
Joan
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I have located the birth for Janet Smart 1 April 1750, born to Thomas and Janet Duncanson
Joan
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All baptisms at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
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The headstone gives date of death for William and Janet Smart and also their daughter Margaret.
But does it give their ages at death?
There are two birth dates for Janet Smart 11 September 1767 (Thomas Smart & Mary Mitchell parents), 4 Jan 1769 (James Smart & Elizabeth Paterson parents). I cannot find any other Janet Smart being Christened in the time frame that would match.
There are eight baptisms of Janet Smarts in Stirlinshire between 1740 and 1770. Why do you think that either of these two is the right one, when you know that they are both too young?
What you must not do is assume that all baptism records have survived. There could be plenty more Janet Smarts whose baptism records have not survived. Or maybe your Janet Smart was not born in Stirlingshire.
Regarding William on their first childs Christening records it states that the witnesses were Robert Jaffray and Will Jaffray Senior. Now I have researched Williams whose father is also William and found one born 20 June 1745 to William Jaffray and Margaret Allison. What are your thoughts on this.
That sounds like a reasonable deduction.
Most info going around has Williams father as John Jaffray and the mother either Margaret Mitchell or Margaret Gillespi they put the birth date of 29 August 1730, but I cannot find any record of this.
If by 'most information going round' you mean submitted trees on Ancestry or any other similar commercial web site, do not trust them. Never believe anything you find online unless it is an original document - and even then be wary; mistakes do occur.