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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: OrganicJohn on Tuesday 22 January 13 18:42 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to trace the early life of Benjamin Harvey (1787--1861) who came to Haverfordwest in Pembrokeshire in the early years of the 19th century to operate paper mills.He bought an existing mill and converted one of the few cotton mills in Wales to a paper mill.He was at the forefront of mechanised paper making as he installed machinery which had only just been developed.In 1812 new paper making machines were installed at St.Petersburg in Russia for the Tsar .The patent was held by the Fourdrinier brothers who had papermills near Hemel Hempstead.Apparently Benjamin Harvey was involved in this contract shortly before he came to Haverfordwest.He was born at Aston Cantlow in Warwickshire and married Jemima Wilkes at Bidford on Avon in 1808.They had 3 sons Jesse and Job were born at Bidford in 1809 and 1810 resp.and Joshua at Worcester in 1815.The 3 sons were involved in the running of the mills in Haverfordwest but by the 1870s they had given up paper making and 2 of them had become farmers.I am curious to know how Benjamin H might have become involved in paper making,what he was doing before his trip to Russia and anything else about him.
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I am still interested in researching the early life of Benjamin Harvey and think that the Frogmore Mill paper museum at Apsley,Hertfordshire might be my best bet.I am planning a visit there but think in the meantime I might contact them to check the likelihood of them having any info on him.I wonder whether he might have been an apprentice there prior to going to St.Petersburg in 1812.He married at Bidford on Avon in 1808 at the age of 21.In 1912 he was only 25 which seems a young age to be supervising such an important project.Perhaps he only went in some junior role.He must surely have served an apprenticeship at Frogmore as there were not that many paper mills.Maybe he had some other relevant experience.It would be interesting to know his fathers occupation.
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Hi
I have been going through my copy of "The Endless Web" the story of John Dickinson & Co paper mills by Joan Evans his great niece but can't find any mention of your Benjamin Harvey.
The first Fourdrinier machine was installed at Frogmore in 1803, & the second at Two Waters in 1806. The engineer was Bryan Donkin who worked for the Fourdrinier brothers. This was all prior to Dickinson taking over the mills at a later date.
According to the book there were 18 paper mills in the county of Herts by 1800, many converted from flour mills.
Do you have any idea were your Benjamin was born, would it have been Hertfordshire.
Maddie
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He was born at Aston Cantlow in Warwickshire and married Jemima Wilkes at Bidford on Avon in 1808.
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So he was Lostris, thanks, missed that bit..... ;D
Maddie
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Interesting to learn that there were so many paper mills in Hertfordshire in 1800.It would seem that he lived in Warwickshire at least until 1815 being married at Bidford on Avon in 1808,his sons Jesse and Job being born at Bidford in 1809 and 1810,and son Joshua in 1815 at Aston Cantlow(where Benjamin himself was born).I suppose he could have gone away from home to work/serve an apprenticeship.Does anyone have any imformation about the contract to install the Fourdrinier machines at St.Petersburg?I am not sure what evidence there is that he was involved.
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Not sure if this will be any help but it does mention who went to Russia.
http://todayinsci.com/F/Fourdrinier_Henry/FourdrinierHenry-Obituary.htm
Maddie
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Thanks for the link which gave some interesting info about the Fourdrinier brothers.The trip to St.Petersburg was apparently led by Henry Fourdrinier`s son and the men sent with him,possibly including Benjamin Harvey were paid for by the Russians although they never paid the Fourdriniers the royalties for the use of their machine as had been agreed.Passport applications cannot be viewed on-line that far back to see whether Benjamin H had applied for a passport.The Warwickshire parish records for the births of the Harvey`s children might give their father`s occupation.They seem to vary in the ammount of details they contain.Similarly their marriage records.
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Hi
I see from the Probate Records he left £10.000, his son's Jesse,Job and Joshua Harvey were executors, do you have a copy of this
Margp
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Hi Marg
It might be interesting getting a copy of the will.He owned 1 or 2 papermills at Haverfordwest.It might list the machinery installed in the mills such as Fourdrinier machines.It would probably not help with shedding light on his earlier life though.
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Hi John
I agree it will not answer your previous question, but I have found that the Wills are a great source of information, about there family and there life, on one of mine, I found a son who I never knew existed who had died, it also mentioned, who the son married and there children, so definitely worth a punt, I wonder if Benjamin went to University, I can't find him on any Apprentice record
Marg
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Hi Marg
He might have come from quite a wealthy family as he was able to buy the mills in Haverfordwest in around 1824 at the age of 37.His parents were Thomas and Ann.Thomas Harvey and Ann Robertson married at Aston Cantlow 14th Jan 1781.The information on the marriage and births do not give any further details such as occupation.It would be most interesting to know his fathers occupation.
John
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I wonder if there is a Will for Thomas
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A will did not appear in the index I checked but that does not mean there was no will.Not knowing his year of death does not help.
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Hi,
searching my 4x grandfather, Charles Hide, papermaker, I came across Benjamin Harvey involved in the Imperial Papermill at Peterhof, Russia.
So almost certain this is yours Harvey.
The story is too long to describe here and I do not know what you want to know. But I got several documents even from Russian archives about the team - among Harvey, Hide , the son of Fourdrinier and several others - that started to work from 1814 on a temporarily contract.
The 2 Fourdrinier machines, the Russian czar ordered when he visited England in 1812, came by boat "Aisthorpe of Parkinson" from London, presumably together with at least some members of the team.
In my case, Charles Hide might have been working in Russia already. What I do know is that he stayed and the several generations after him as well till the Russian Revolution.
My brickwall is that I do not know where in England Charles came from. Born however in 1781/1782.
That`s it for now.
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I am very interested in the imformation you have on the St.Petersburg venture.I am interested in anything on Benjamin Harvey before he came to Haverfordwest where he first appears in 1841 running a paper mill.He was born in Warwickshire and he married and his sons were born in that area.I feel that he must have worked for the Fourdrinier brothers at their mills near Hemel Hempstead.I wonder if your ancestor worked there? I am intending to visit the museum there or to contact them to see if they have any info on employees.If I send you a PM with my contact details perhaps you would be so kind as to send me the info you have on the St.Petersberg job.
John
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John,
I`m certainly willing to share with you the information I have on the Fourdinier -project in Russia. Although it may take some time and in parts.
How do you know that your Benjamin Harvey was involved in this Fourdrinier business? Do you have any info about him on his stay in Russia?
In researching my 4x grandfather, I now at the point to see if e.g. witnesses at weddings can give indications about his background/whereabouts/social/working/contacts in Russia. I admit, my last hope.
I know Benjamin Harvey only as member of the team.
So I wonder if (all) members came from the same county in England. Family-story goes that my Charles Hide came from Yorkshire. But that is rather vague.
Please send me any information you get visiting the Fourdrinier museum. I tried to contact them but did not get an answer.
Best wishes,
elcas ( for the moment)
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Some research done on the paper mills in Haverfordwest came up with the information that Benjamin Harvey had been to St.Petersberg even that he had been in charge of the operation.I will try to follow that up.
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Have found an article on Benjamin Harvey by Nikki Bosworth who is archivist at the Pembrokeshire record office.It was published in the Dyfed family history society journal.I have discovered several things I did not know before.His family were involved with running paper mills at Aston Cantlow.He had a brother William Harvey,born 1781 who stayed at Aston Cantlow running the paper mill.Prior to the Fourdrinier brothers introduction of the automatic paper making machine the mechanized part of the process was the production of pulp from rags.The rest of the process was done by hand.After son Joshua was born in Warwickshire in 1815 the family went to Russia where he helped the Fourdrinier`s team installing the machinery.They were there some time as several of their children were born there but all died except Anne born1822.Soon after her birth they came back to England and then to Wales.From Elcas I have some fascinating information as a result of research on his ancestor Charles Hide (or Hyde).He has a copy of a letter listing staff employed in Russia including his ancestor (employed as an interpretor) and Benjamin Harvey (paper maker).I would still like to know whether he had worked for the Fourdriniers prior to going to Russia.Also how many paper mills had the Fourdrinier machines by 1824 when he came back to Britain.Also how much the machines cost and how he could afford to buy them.The Fourdriniers were not paid by the Russian government and were bankrupted.I wonder whether their workers were paid?
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Dear All
Wow what a resource Rootschat is, I am doing some research for my elderly uncle (91 years young), he has Harvey as a middle name and Hyde as his family name. I was stuck at his grandfather Frederick Hyde born 1871 Bidford on Avon. I felt sure that I would find a link back to Harvey as a family name somewhere and sure enough here we have the link and what an auspicious one.
I can't wait to tell him about his Harvey ancestors.
Best wishes
Felix
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Dear Zebelix......and Benjamin,
First to Benjamin: the members of the team were payed by the Tsar. Not the Fourdrinier brothers.
However just know - believe or not - I came across an article in Mechanics magazine, Vol.XVI, page 421 an article "Caution to mechanics against emigrating to Russia", 1831. There is my 4x grandfather Hide mentioned working at the Imperial Papermill.
My research convinced me already that he was a papermaker. By now I`m almost 100% certain that he was working at the Imperial Papermill and could therefore help the English team installing the Fourdrinier machines by "interpreting".
To Zebelix: yes I`m interesting in your family line although the combination of "Harvey Hide" is new for me.
Eagerly waiting, Elcas
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Dear Elcas
It was wonderful to read your reply and hear that you are still interested in your Charles Hide.
I have had a look at the Mechanics Magazine December 1831 and was fascinated to read the warnings and Messrs. Davison, Hide, Glenton, Knowles and Merrott being mentioned. If they were discharged in 1831 that was just a year before Charles died, I wonder if being forced out had anything to do with his death. I found the death of Charles Richard Hide 1 Nov 1895 in St Petersburg and on the same page the death of Charles Frederick Davison aged 68 years on 31 May 1895, could he possibly be the son of the Davison mentioned in 1831?
I live near the centre of Worcester so can access the Worcestershire archives but I think in order to advance our research I may need to visit the Warwickshire archives at the new Birmingham Library. I will have to make time for an excursion or two.
My uncle says that his father who was William Harvey Hyde ( 1898-1983 ) was very proud of the Harvey name he had been given. He was the son of Frederick Harvey Hyde born in Bidford on Avon 1871. I am still working on finding the missing Hyde and Harvey family links.
I am ordering some birth certificates for Hyde Alcester births to locate the parents of Frederick Harvey Hyde and will let you know what I find.
I have found an Elizabeth Tringham born 1792 in Alne in the 1851 census living with her daughter Sarah Ross and husband in Tewkesbury. A Sarah Tringham was baptised in Worcester in 1825 to William and Elizabeth Tringham so we have a Warwickshire/Worcestershire link to the Tringham family.
Just one last thought for the moment, your Charles Hide born 1781/1782 had two sons with Richard as Agilent middle name so his father may have been Richard? Just a thought.
Best wishes
Felix
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Sorry typing this on my iPad the last paragraph should read as a middle given name and not Agilent!
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I have had contact with a Swedish descendant of the paper making Davisons, I contacted her through Ancestry but she has given me permission to place her family information here. I found the death of Charles Frederick Davisson b.1827 d. 1895 in the UK, Foreign and Overseas Registers of British Subjects 1628 - 1969 and found him in 1841 with his family living in Alveley near Bridgnorth. The following link has information about Alveley Mills.
http://search.shropshirehistory.org.uk/collections/getrecord/CCS_MSA17111/?allowcookies=1
In the 1841 census on the same page as the Davisons there was a 30 year old James Hyde papermaker with his wife (her name has been transcribed as Milbro!) also at Alveley I wonder if he was related to Elcas' Charles Hide?
Anyway back to the Davison family:
"In 1849 John Davisson (1804-1863) moved to Sweden with his family. They established a paper mill in Nykvarn, outside Stockholm. His son Charles Frederick (1827-1895) seems to have left Sweden after a couple of years and he died in St Petersburg. Maybe he had been there as a child or maybe Davisson could mean another family or a brother to John?
From Nykvarn they moved to Motala. John Davisson and his son James Davisson are mentioned in a Swedish book about Swedish paper industry. The paper mill in Motala was founded by the brothers Alexander and Robert Fraser and John Davisson. Alexander and Robert came to Sweden with their parents, from Scotland. Davisson and Frazer imported machines from Bryan and Donkin & Co, outside London.
Johns son Joseph Davisson (1835-1919) was my grandfather’s grandfather. As an apprentice (for paper maker), he might have been in England. He worked at several paper mills within Sweden, and one period he was in Norway. When he became a master or papermaker he often stayed only for a year, so maybe his knowledge was needed for the start-up of a new paper mill. I think a paper maker was well paid. But in 1887 he and his family moves to Norrköping. According to the church records he is now “only” a paper worker. Something must have happened. I think the paper industry had financial problems, maybe there were to many mills, so they had to close down.
John Davisson with his family, later settled down in Röttle outside Gränna (or Jönköping). His youngest son, John Davisson Jr. (1839-1910) took over Röttle paper mill after his father died in 1863. The paper mill was discontinued in 1879. The same year John and his family moved to Torsvik outside Jönköping. He became the head of Torsvik paper mill, but not the owner. He was however a friend of the owner, C. F. Wennberg. He built what in those days was the biggest water wheel in Sweden. The wheel powered the paper mill. John Davisson Jr. liked to do a lot of experiments. He developed skin ointment, he tested minerals, he also tested different items like rye straw, for paper production. His wife thought it was too much!
In 1899, C. F. Wennberg suddenly died and the company got financial problems. The paper industry was having problem with profitability the last decades. There were too many paper mills in Sweden. In 1905 John and his wife moves back to Gränna. Then his wife’s flour grinder burns down in Gränna, and they get even harder financial problems. In 1910 at the age of 70, John Davisson committed suicide.
I think the Davisson´s were very technically skilled. John Davisson have descendents here in Sweden who for some generations have been engineers.
John Davison’s (1804-1863) wife was Elisabeth Powell (1799-1870), she was born in Bromfield, Shropshire. "
I expect my Hyde/Hide GRO pdfs to arrive in the next few days so watch this space.
Felix
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I have found James Hyde and wife Amelia in 1851 with their 9 year old daughter, he is still a papermaker but in Cleobury Mortimer now.
F
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Felix,
what an activity.
I red with interest your findings although at least for the moment no links to my maternal family.
So far I know their name was just Hide.
But any information about papermills/papermakers is important. Is has been a rather complex business.
The Imperial Papermill in Peterhof / Russia is my focus. My Charles Hide worked there, but the question is was he a professional already in England ?
I keep following you!
Thanks,
Elcas
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Hi Elcas et al
I have received my pdfs from GRO (a selection of Hyde births registered in Alcester)but they are not from the family I am seeking (William and Ellen as parents) which is a disappointment. I will set out all the information I have on my Harvey Hyde family in my next missive but it will take a little time to organise, I can then copy and paste it to some other message boards.
Elcas, do you have any other clues linking your Charles Hyde to the Suffolk Hide family other than the baptismal registers?
I have found a Benjaminus Hide baptised 15 Jan 1728 in Aston Cantlow to Ricardi and Sara Hide and in the Warwickshire trade directory I found Richard Hide a glover in Alcester in 1747 so there are Richard Hides in the Alcester area.
I have been looking at the Wilkes family in the Alcester area as Jemima Wilkes (b.1783) married papermaker Benjamin Harvey in Bidford in 1808. Her father was Job Benjamin Wilkes b.1748 and her mother was Elizabeth Hemming b.1758 in Haselor, they married in Bidford 1777. I have found marriage links between the Hides and the Hemmings with the marriage of Susannah Hide to William Hemming 12 Oct 1782 in Alcester.
The Hemmings family were needle makers in Studley using Mills for needle scouring. An unusual daughter's name that appears in the Harvey and Hide families in the area is Keziah. Ah well, so much information but so difficult to tie it all together.
Best wishes
Felix
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I went back to the information I had from census returns and took out a month's subscription to Find my Past as well as The Ancestry one I have already. I was looking for a marriage of the mother of my Frederick Harvey Hyde b.1871, all through the census records she has stated that she was born in Leigh, Worcestershire. Sure enough there was an Ellen b. 1841 to James and Sarah Hyde and she has various siblings even one named Harvey Hyde b.1846. From census records it looks as though she did not marry so I think our line of middle name Harveys come from her brother. So it appears that Frederick Harvey Hyde was born out of wedlock, I cannot even find a birth registration that fits him so goodness only knows what was going on in her life around 1870. She laters marries in Wales and states that she is a widow named Ellen Hyde, just a little white lie for the sake of propriety.
Her brother may have been named for Charles Hide's friend Benjamin Harvey but I will have to find links from my Worcestershire Hydes to the Warwickshire Hide family.
Farewell for now, it has been fascinating looking at all the different Hydes/Hides and I have some Warwickshire Hyde birth certificates if anyone is interested.
Best wishes
Felix