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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: carricknew on Monday 21 January 13 11:16 GMT (UK)
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I'm not sure if anyone can help me with this ancestor of mine - It's one I've been struggling with for some time.
The person in question is my great great grandfather James Brown (b: abt 1861 in Sand Point Nova Scotia d: 1925 Sand Point, Nova Scotia)
I can't find Jame's birth certificate anywhere. I have found evidence of his marriage to Ada Carter in 1884 but on the marriage record he has left his parent's names blank.
I have also found his death certificate where his parents are listed as George Martin and Mary Ann Sullivan, but the word 'foster' is written in brackets beside George Martin's name.
I don't know a lot about James, other than that he was a fisherman - none of my family knew he had lived with a foster family and I have no idea how to trace his real parents. I have been unable to find him on a census with them.
James seems to have a fairly unusual middle name. On one of his son's marriage certificates James' middle name looks like Granquist but one of James' children is named James Cranswick (so maybe Cranswick was mis-heard as Granquist, or vice versa).
I have found him on the 1881 census living with his foster family as James Martin, of Irish origin and working as a fisherman.
Does anyone have any ideas on where to go next?
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Have you tried tracing the Brown family to see if any descendants can shed light on James?
George F. Martin, age 74, died 1 May 1912 Sand Point, Guysborough Co., fisherman, married, tuberculosis/heart failure (9 months), Church of England, buried Oyster ?, informant- James Brown.
The 1901 census gives James Brown born 26 June 1861 N.S. of English descent (Milford sub-district, Guysborough Co.).
Have you ruled out James Brown born c1861, son of Frank Brown & Pantha Myers?
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Hi Aghadowey,
I have tried other ways around trying to find his parents - even trying Martin and Sullivan genealogy to see if anyone knew where he came from.
Where have you found James son of Frank and Pantha?
I haven't come across them before
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1881 Melford Guysbrough Nova Scotia George Martin (43) with wife Mary Ann (41) and children James (20) and Alvaretta (16). I'm assuming this is the correct family.
1871 Melford Guysbrough Nova Scotia George Martin (33) with wife Mary Ann (31) and James C. (9)
If these are the correct people Frank and Pantha could be eliminated as possible parents as their James F. (11) is with them on the 1871 Manchester Guysbrough census.
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It's a bit outside my area of N.S. but lots of people from Guysborough county moved to the States (via Boston) and settled in Gloucester, Mass. (My grandmother's family in Queens County used to go 'shopping' in Boston and the ladies thought nothing of getting on the train to the boat for Boston).
So, the following information is only a suggestion to follow up if you wish...
1871 census- Manchester, Guysborough, N.S.: Frances? Brown (42), Pantha Brown (38), Ithat Brown (17) [male], Sarah J. Brown (15), Lidia A. Brown (13). James F. Brown (11), Margaret Brown (age 8 ), Pantha Brown (5), Loisa? Brown (3), William Brown (3 months). Next household is Lothrop Myers who is probably a relation to Pantha Brown.
Female born 5 Oct.1873 Gloucester- parents Frank Brown (cooper) & Pantha Myers
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FX4H-5VP
1880 census- Gloucester, Essex, Mass.: Frank Brown (53), Pantha Brown (47), James F. Brown (20), Pantha A. Brown (14), Louisa V. Brown (12), William F. Brown (10).
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MH6Z-82B
Cosmac's just posted more likely James so will leave this to the side for now :)
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Have you tried following the Cranswick name in Guysborough? There is some relationship to the Horton surname but I'm not sure where that leads. There are certainly a number of Horton's throughout the years in Guysborough.
Edwad Francis Cranswick Horton b. 1835 d. 1916 Halifax married 1870 to Mary Ann Kaiser. Edward was s/o George Washington Horton and Elizabeth Digdon. All this from a family tree on ancestry but it might be verifiable through Nova Scotia site.
Marshall Cranswick b. 1873 Salmon River Guysborough s/o Alexander Horton and Ellen Morgan.
George Archibald Horton married 1873 to Ellen Maloney and a child was born to them in 1873 at Sany Cove.
IGI reference to a William Cranswick Horton b. 1839 Guysborough, s/o Charles S. Horton and Eliza Henline.
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Thanks Aghadowey and Cosmac,
Cosmac, you have the correct family there - so I will probably leave Pantha and Frank out for now.
I will start looking at the Hortons. I think it might be difficult to find his parents without his birth certificate though.
But it's a start :)
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www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/
Nova Scotia Archives
The records of Saint James Anglican Church, Melford, Guysborough County are held at the archives.
There are four reels of records (11673/11674/22798/22780) including
Baptisms 1854-1989
Marriages 1855-1988
Burials 1854-1924
These include records from surrounding areas including Red Head, Oyster Pond and Sand Point. Other areas as well. It appears from what I have seen on the replies this is the church that George Martin went to and also a good possiblity that James Brown's info if it exists would be in these reels. His birth was before registration came into effect and he is not listed under the delayed registration of births so this is your only avenue to perhaps find a baptism.
If his birth certificate existed it would be on file at the Vital Statistics site. www.novascotiagenealogy.com
These records can only be viewed at the archives so you would have to make a trip or else hire a researcher.
Hope this helps in some way, Val
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Thanks Valeriec,
I suppose this is the only way forward. I will have to take a trip there next time I am home I think
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New Information!
I have found George and Mary Ann's grave stone and Mary Ann is listed as Mary Ann Brown on it.
So I think possibly she is Jame's actual mother and George is a step father - not a foster father as it says on his death certificate.
Still doesn't explain why he left them both off his marriage cert...
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There is also no explanation for the surname of the mother being Sullivan if she's a Brown.
I suppose if there was no marriage of George Martin to Mary Ann then the acting father could have been said to foster the child in the true sense of the word..."foster father"
Here is an area well populated with Brown & Sullivan ...and on this page a Mary Ann was claimed to be in household but then scratched out!
Elizabeth Brown 54 Mary Ann 31? Susan 17 Mathew 17 Margaret 14 Alvaretta 5
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1871/jpg/4396281_00323.jpg
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Sorry, I see now that the above Mary Anne appears to have married a George Fox...
https://www.novascotiagenealogy.com/ItemView.aspx?ImageFile=1814-23&Event=marriage&ID=40598
Mind you I looked for them in 1871 and cannot see them...also one must wonder why she'd been scribbled in several years after she'd been married, had the marriage not worked out? A possibility to look into, then?
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Hi JJ,
Thanks for your reply. I was surprised to get any after such a long time.
In regards to the grave stone, I was working on the assumption that maybe MaryAnn was a Sullivan (maiden name) and married a Brown - had James and then re-married to George Martin. Which might explain the grave stone.
It's interesting that you suggest they were never married - I hadn't thought of that before. I have never found a marriage certificate for them, but just assumed that it had never been scanned or something - I also have never found a birth record for James.
I thought before that maybe MaryAnn had been married and the marriage didn't work out. I did a small bit of research on it and discovered that in those days if you wanted a divorce they werre pretty well documented (had to write to the paper and name and shame your other half) and I have never found any evidence of this.
It's still soemthing I look in to often but never seem to get anywhere with. I'm always hoping to find someone else researching the Browns or Sullivans who know of the family but it hasn't happened yet.
I am pretty sure MaryAnn is Jame's real mother (thought it doesn't explain leaving their names off his marriage cert) and possibly she remarried. But I don't know for sure
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Hello. Some food for thought .....
I was wondering if you had looked sideways and followed Alveretta forward? She is with Mary Ann and George Martin in the 1881 Census but it looks like she might be the same Alveretta who is with Elizabeth Brown and named as Brown in the 1871 Census. It is too bad relationships are not given but surely Elizabeth would have been too old to be her mother, although not entirely impossible, of course; she is possibly her grandmother though? Marriage and death info for Alveretta may provide the info that was missing from the certs for James.
PB
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Good one, polarbear, I had not looked closely at the age rage of Elizabeth to Alveretta, just to Mary anne... I had checked the 1881 & it only gave me an Alveretta Brown in Ontario 1881...
(Whose eldest sister was born in Nova Scotia so something to look into, carricknew, if this bunch is yours...) or are you saying she was now a Martin? That would indeed make sense then that she might also be an offspring...
adding: I'll post the 1881 where she is now surname Martin http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e325/e008116937.jpg
So the mother may have been married to a Sullivan, ( Mary Anne was down as Scottish ancestry 1871) then a Brown, the children taking on the surname. I'll look around for the marriage for Alveretta, silly me I was looking under Brown...
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Thanks J.J.
I think Alveretta could have married under either Brown or Martin. Forgot about the possible Sullivan connection ... another possibility? With a name like Alveretta, she should hopefully be easy to trace.
PB
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Must apologize to cosmac as she had posted the 1881 information, and I should have reread the thread to make the connection ...but I guess it still all came about in a roundabout way...
Alveretta is proving harder to find than I'd thought...I also cannot find children to confirm parents of Mathew, Susan, etc... ::)
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I may have found her birth, though....unnamed female baby, mother Mary... birth Aug. 5th1866 Manchester, Guysborough, Nova Scotia https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F2W3-6RP
also found a marriage for sister Susan Brown & James William Sullivan married 1871 in Guysborough County, her parents Matthew and Elizabeth (same as Mary Ann stated when she married George Fox 2 February 1868/St. Of Canso, Guysboro, Nova Scotia)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F2KG-V4Y
Her death has mother's surname but hard to read Derl/Darl?
https://www.novascotiagenealogy.com/ItemView.aspx?ImageFile=122-1162&Event=death&ID=207551
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Hmmmm, since they were having children for that span of years...Wonder if it might have been Dart? Sarah A Mcintosh birth 1846 Nova Scotia d. 4 April 1910 Newburyport,,Massachusetts
parents Matthew V Brown & Elizabeth Dort (spouse John F Mcintosh)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12390-27343-17?cc=1463156
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and I am not sure how many Matthew Brown were in Nova Scotia but there are oddly 2 deaths, same day same details for two different forenamed Brown men...last name doesn't fit for Elizabeth, but sometimes mistakes are made from memory.
Archibald Brown Death 8 Jun 1891 Ipswich Salem, Essex, Massachusetts
Age 49 / Married / Seaman Birth Year 1842 Nova Scotia
Father Mathew Brown b. N.S. Mother Elizabeth Dodge b. N. S.
Reference v. 418 p. 458 Image Number 423
James A. Brown had exact same details so his name was perhaps James Archibald Brown?
Reference v. 418 p. 351 Image Number 318
You can view the documents for details, C.O.D., etc. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N7PW-9W5
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in 1861 as surname Broun James, Josiah, Matthew, and further down the page Francis whom you'd all found earlier as Frank, then a James R or James A. That could not be James A found in U.S. as he's listed between 30 & 40)
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1861/jpg/4108870_00136.jpg
In order to follow the basic info as to ages (can be as much as a decade out as between age 30 and 40 above) change the last number in the url ( 00137) and follow the number of the person you are searching. This can be many pages, so make sure you look at it all...under the same number line number, until the next set of listed names appears...
a James Brown age 80, widower from Ireland, parents Matthew & Martha Brown, died 1872 https://www.novascotiagenealogy.com/ItemView.aspx?ImageFile=1807-62&Event=death&ID=15774
Here is James Sr. in 1871 with Isaiah who is on the previous page along with your Mary Ann as found before!
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1871/jpg/4396281_00324.jpg
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1871/jpg/4396281_00323.jpg
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I don't yet see that particular James A amongst this several page haystack of James Brown in Mass. U.S.who were born N.S http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z48/
But looking through them I did see a familiar name!!!! James A. Brown -Death March 10 1892
Age 66 Birth 1826 Father James / Mother Sarah Horton
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FH6F-ZMG
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Well apparently, in this publication with other family... her surname was Dort! http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z49/
There are other Brown listed put brown into the blank and hit go
some info from a tree when searching online...
Sarah Horton b. 24 Mar 1798 / Father Isaiah Horton
1838 census with James Brown the weaver in Manchester
http://www.cb-ns.org/NonMember/Cen_1838GuysboroughCo.htm
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Christ Church Anglican, Guysborough
Dec 26, 1838 Guysboro / Matthew Brown, Bach Sandy Cove / Elizabeth Dort Spinst Sandy Cove /witnesses Jas. Or Jos. Brown, John V Dort / clergyman Charles J Shreves
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nslsatb/torbay/christ_church_marriages_files/christ_church_marriages2.htm Lots of Dort also on page
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nslsatb/torbay/christ_church_marriages_files/christ_church_marriages.htm
This site says Matthew & Eliz. had a son William Francis....so perhaps a descendant of same?
http://rodgersgen.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/isaiah-zipporah-jane-hyde-horton/
The name Valentine Dort being so popular in the generations...(father John Valentine Dort)
Here is a couple in early 18th century Germany that might be related somehow!( father Johann Valentin Dört ) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J48R-34Q
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First of all I would like to thank you guys for putting in so much effort and coming up with great information. I haven't had the internet for over 2 months so I haven't been able to look at the thread.
I've had a few hours and I'd come up with a great theory and then had it blown out of the water haha!
The hubby will be watching the world cup tomorrow so it should give me plenty of time to do more research. In the meantime I'll tell you my theory and then one or two extra bits were found that confuse it all.
Ok, so when Mary Ann Brown was found living with Elizabeth I thought that Mary Ann nee Sullivan was living with her mother in law after both their husbands died (Elizabeth is listed as a widow and it looks like "" is done below it on Mary Ann's section too suggesting she was also widowed). Alvaretta being her daughter and the other children belonging to Elizabeth. I thought that possibly she was staying with them, but had recently been married to George Martin, which was why she turned up in both households and why she was scribbled out of Elizabeth's household.
I searched some of Elizabeth's children and found that Susan married James Sullivan(!) in 1871. Her marriage cert confirmed her parents were Matthew and Elizabeth Brown. I couldn't find anything on the other children.
As someone correctly mentioned, this Mary Ann Brown married a George Fox. At first I thought this must have been another Mary Ann Brown of the same age, but on the marriage certificate she lists her parents as Elizabeth and Matthew Brown. So it is definitely her. There is no record of a George or Mary Ann Fox on the 1871 or 1881 census, but also no death for George either.
Now here is where is gets really interesting - the witnesses to Mary Ann Brown and George Fox's marriage were Susan Brown and George Martin!
So my theory that Mary Ann was born a Sullivan, married a Brown, was widowed and married George Martin has been blown out of the water.
Now it looks like Mary Ann was always a Brown, married a Fox, had children living with her (her's out of wedlock, someone else's that she's adopted) and is married to a Martin.
Or they are two completely separate people who's lives are entwined by similar dates and names. But that seems unlikely somehow.
But if they are the same person, where have the children come from (both James and Alveretta would have been born before her marriage to George Fox) and where has the name Sullivan come from.
Or I could be going off in completely the wrong direction and missing something.
I'll be at it again tomorrow (I hope!). In the meantime, any more theories?
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O.k. ...hmmmm....maybe you should make notes when reading what people have found for you, as that "someone" found quite a bit for you, including the marriage of Susan and James?
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JJ,
I haven't even finished looking through all that was posted (because there was a lot), but after receiving two pm's from you chasing me about it, I thought maybe I should make time immediately to look at least at some of it.
I apologise if you don't feel that I appreciated the information you provided and that thanking you on a pm and in the thread wasn't enough but there is no need to be quite so rude. If I'd have known I'd get a sarcastic reply and a snarky pm I'd have made sure I put aside an entire day and looked at it all at once.
I thank you again from the bottom of my heart for the wealth of information that you provided, because it really was appreciated but I would now actually appreciate it if you had no further contact with me.
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Oh, I do apologise for chasing you about....I don't believe you'd have been notified had I not though...as the site has blips where it shuts off notification.
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After notifying the poster...Here was my answer by p.m. apparently this was my pm'd thank you??
Hi J.J.
Apologies for not getting back sooner. I have been without the internet for about 2 months. I have only just got it back last night! I haven't had a chance to look in to the new leads but I wanted to let you know that I appreciate your message letting me know I had replied.
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I am insulted when somebody says they took the time to look up a whole lot of things that were already posted by me, then also takes the time to repeat at length a theory they've already posted. When I point out that the thread should have been read more thoroughly, I am later told there wasn't time to look at all the information...
I have read through it all multiple times...yet it is not my thread. I know someone else has read through it all several times also, and we take note....and many others probably have as well.
and I was so delighted to see the "thank you again from the bottom of my heart for the wealth of information that you provided" that might have been written sooner