RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: BwNoLa on Saturday 19 January 13 06:15 GMT (UK)
-
I am from the States and could use some help if possible before ordering the wrong records.
I am not sure but I believe this Catherine Maud Clarke (b.in Lambeth Jul 1870) is my great Aunt, I am trying to find her record as well as her sister my other great Aunt, Alice Matilda Clarke (b. in Mile End Town 1868).
this is what I know thus far.
Catherine Maud Clarke
Date of Registration:
Jul-Aug-Sep 1870
Lambeth
Volume:1d
Page:461
Alice Matilda Clarke
Date of Registration:
Jan-Feb-Mar 1868
Mile End Old Town
Volume:1c
Page:628
I finally realize that LONDON has Many districts, sub districts, sub sub GRO, etc. I did manage years ago to get my great grandmother's birth record, she was born in "Mile End Old Town Eastern" in "County of Middlesex" I am assuming her sister Alice record is same office since she was born a few years later and sister Catherine Maud was in "Lambeth" an area near by?
Anyone able to see these records to make sure they are my family? I don't necessarily need an "official copy" but would love to know exact date of births and WHERE would they have possibly been baptised, and confirm parents? Also, Annie Beatrice Clarke was their eldest sister.
Thanks in advance for any help, I truly appreciate the kindness of fellow researchers around!
Cheers,
Brian
-
It is not possible to view birth certificates without buying them!
-
Hi,,,the records you have found are taken from the free BMD index {births.marriages,deaths}...the details recorded {registration district..volume..page number etc} are to enable you to order the correct birth certificate from the GRO {general register office}....therefore no-one will be able to tell you the information contained on those birth certificates,unless they actually order the certificate using the details from the BMD index. ;)
-
Hi Brian
Do you know who the parents were for the two girls?
We could help you find them in 1871 census.
I've had no luck so far.
If you order a cert from GRO you can stipulate the parents names, if incorrect, they won't charge you.
Just a thought.
TinaM
-
Hi,
The nearest I could find for a census was this.
1871 living at L? Villas, Lambeth.
Fred Clarke Head 29, bricklayer born Holbrook
Annie Clarke wife 28 born Hull
Annie Clarke 5 dau born Bow
Alice Clarke 3 dau born Bow
Maude Clarke 8 dau born Brixton.
RG10/691/22/35
Bow is an area very close to Mile End.
Sharon
-
Hi Brian
Do you know who the parents were for the two girls?
We could help you find them in 1871 census.
I've had no luck so far.
If you order a cert from GRO you can stipulate the parents names, if incorrect, they won't charge you.
Just a thought.
TinaM
The reference checking service was suspended 3 years ago.
If you want to order a cert from the GRO and quote the reg district, volume and page number you CAN'T stipulate the parents names.
To do this you must order without the references, doing so will take you to another screen where you have to enter a load of extra details.
Dawn
-
Hi Brian
Referring to your post here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,632026.0.html
It was mentioned that Frederick & Amelia married in 1865. Have you located a mariage certificate for them. I can't find an entry in the marriage index, and the banns register is available online but they weren't called the required 3 times.
I note that on the 1871 census Maude is 8 which puts her birth circa 1863, before they married?
Also, although civil registration started in 1837, it wasn't compulsory for parents to register births until 1874 (the onus was on the registrars to go around their districts and collect birth entries) so there may not be certificate entries to find.
Dawn
-
THANK YOU ALL DEEEPLY for you HELP...
You are all correct and that is the 1871 Census then the moved to America. And Thanks for the bit about asking if their Parents show as Fred* Clark(e) and Amelia Ann "Annie" Sherwood first before ordering their records, it adds up when wrong documents are ordered and mailed this far...
I appreciate your help, I have not been sure for longest time if these are certainly my great aunts and as I said knowing for certain (by confirming the parents) and getting exact date of birth is most important, obviously.
cheers,
brian
-
Dawn,
I just have a Bann's entrance for Fred Clark(e) and Amelia Ann (Annie) Sherwood, I don't have marriage document in hand. If thats what you were asking. My other post in Sculcoates were referring to Amelia Ann (Annie) Sherwood's parents as she gave her place of birth as Hull, Yorkshire.
I got this online, but don't have Fred and Annie's actual marriage certificate, IF there is even one to have? hmm. Thanks again everyone, I still have lots to learn. :) cheers, b.
Name:
Frederick Clark
Age:23
Spouse Name:
Amelia Ann Sherwood
Age:22
Banns
16 Jul 1865
Parish:Stepney St Dunstan and All Saints
Moderator comment: edited for content, please do not copy & paste information from sites for copyright reasons, you must transcribe what you see.
-
Hi Brian
Unless their names are written in horrendous handwriting or horribly mis-transcribed, they didn't marry at St Dunstans, and there are no other matches in the various marriage indexes we have available to us. At this stage I would suggest they didn't marry in England, for whatever reasons.
If they weren't married at the time Maude came along, her birth might be registered under another surname or not at all, it wasn't unusual for illegitimate births to fall between the cracks in the registration system.
Dawn
-
Dawn,
I'm confused. just because one doesn't find a marriage license wouldn't mean that they didnt have birth certificates for their children... I have my great grandmother's birth certificate in London already. "maude" is same Catherine Maude Clarke, she was 8 month at time of census NOT 8 years old. I have ALL census records and such I need from then on.
I just need the birth records and as someone else said in earlier one line reply, I need to purchase such documents as the GRO or volunteer can't go to view record before one purchases the record.
Maybe Fred and Annie went some other place to marry, or had ceremony another place besides St Dunstan's or maybe they didn't "marry" at all, it's just a piece of paper otherwise to me.
THANK YOU truly for checking for me and for your help and input.
cheers,
brian
-
Hi Brian
It is a known fact that although civil regitration started in 1837, a number of births weren't recorded between 1837 and 1875 when there was a change in the registration law. There are several reasons, the main one being that many people considered a baptism to be sufficient, as it was being a member of a parish that was the way you accessed aid if you became needy. The 'parish' not the state was responsible for you. The other was illegitimacy and the stigma attached to having a child out of wedlock in some social circles.
Thank you for adding that the census has recorded an incorrect age for Maude, the chatters here can only look at the records available to them and don't have the benefit of family information.
As an 'outsider', looking at the birth registrations in the index, it is easy to suppose that the entries you have found aren't the same siblings as Lambeth is south of the river Thames and historically in Surrey and Mile End is North of the river and in the East End of London. The only way to be sure is to buy a copy from the GRO. The actual details aren't online and will require a change in the law and a huge financial investment by the GRO which, as a governemt department, is subject to severe financial constraints.
Researchers don't have direct access to the actual details of births, marriages and deaths as recorded in the registrars registers. We try to use other resources such as transcribed baptism, marriage and burial registers which used to be published by Family History Societies. These are becoming more readily available online usually on subscription sites. It would seem that your family went down the state route and registered the births of their children but didn't have them baptised into the Anglican faith, you tend not to find non-conformist, Catholic, Jewish or Quaker records online. Your family may of course fit into these latter categories.
I mentioned the Banns as couples had to pay to have them called. To keep expenses down, even if they were resident in different parishes, they would have the Banns called at one church only. The other route would be to be married by licence which removed the need for Banns, but this was a more expensive route to go down but meant that the other parishners know that you were planning a wedding.
As Frederick & Amelia had the Banns partially called St Dunstans you would expect to see a marriage very soon after at the church. However in ths instance there isn't a subsequent marriage there or at any other Anglican parish in the area or in the indexes for 1865. If they had married at another denomination or the register office you would expect to see an entry in the index. If you need to pursue this, you would need to contact the local register office and ask them to search all of the other marriage registers for that registration district. I know that the GRO do not have the facility to search if you think an entry is missing but you don't know where specifically the marriage took place.
Hope this helps.
Dawn
-
Dawn,
Yes, thank you very much. All information helps. I should just go straight to finding GRO offices and roll the dice, send off the funds.
I certainly now have to research and try to undestand what the "Called the Banns" stuff mean. Always something to learn.
cheers
Brian
-
Hi Brian
I can recommend wikipaedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_Act_1753
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns
Dawn
-
I should just go straight to finding GRO offices and roll the dice, send off the funds.
For GRO, go to http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
Cost is £9.25.
Do NOT use any other service, as they will charge you about £20 for the same certificate!
It is also possible to use a local Register Office, which covers the district and parish where the event took place. Cost is slightly more than GRO.
See http://maps.direct.gov.uk/LDGRedirect/MapAction.do?ref=grolight
-
It is also possible to use a local Register Office, which covers the district and parish where the event took place. Cost is slightly more than GRO.
They might also charge you extra for shipping overseas, the GRO charge a flat rate of £9.25 inclusive of postage, even worldwide.
-
Thanks Dawn and Kgarrad,
I already ordered few records just now from GRO... sadly I may not know if I got the right things til after I see them and of course, been billed for them :(
I "thought" having people "look up" things was something different then what it seems to be. We can go to our Archives in person, look at documents and just pay for cost of a copy if it's what we want. I see it's not the same other places in the world.
cheers
-
With most archives in the UK, it's the same.
You can look at what's available and pay for a copy.
Birth, Marriage and Death Certificates are a different thing altogether! ::)
There is an online petition out there in the ether, to get basic info at a cheaper cost?
But it would take the Register Office, or GRO, just as long to dig out the information, so I don't think that's going to happen!