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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: John1935 on Thursday 17 January 13 18:29 GMT (UK)
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On the 17th Feb 1743 our Lucy Euseb (widow) of St Dunstans married at the Fleet Westminster Peter Lawlanier of Christchurch Spitalfields, he was a weaver and bachelor.
Has anyone any knowledge of Peter Lawlanier or if this surname is wrongly transcribed ?
What I an really trying to say is have you got a Lawlanier in your ancestral cupboard.
Once again - Help Please
JOHN1935
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None in my cupboard :)
...but Laulanier seems to exist as a French surname. Perhaps he was a Huguenot?
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None in my cupboard :)
...but Laulanier seems to exist as a French surname. Perhaps he was a Huguenot?
Nor mine , but it does sound very french , and Spitalfields was an area where there were many weavers and Huguenots lived
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Hi John
Lawlanier was my reading of it, but I'm far from sure that is correct:
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd160/Riche1979/peter_zpsacac3576.jpg)
It does seem to begin with Law... that's about as confident as I am.
Richard
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think it may end ....nan. The r in Peter is is quite different and since they are both at the end of a word, I'd expect more similarity
Lawlainan?
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I ws going to suggest that mc8. I also think it may end in ...man. :)
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Lawlaman? Perhaps an anglicisation of Lallemand?
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Checked through the Tesmoignages of the Threadneedle Street Church, which gives a rough indication which surnames were in use amongst the Huguenots of London, no trace of Lallemand or Lawlanier/Laulanier.
Checking for all surnames beginning with L and ending in 'man' produced the following:
Lackman
Laleman
Laman/Lamand/Lamande
Layman
Could possibly be a variant spelling of one of these?
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L'allemand (Varients given as Lalleman,Lallemant) does appear in the records of the French Hospital and the family in that instance comes from the St Quentin region of France, which I believe was also the case for the Eusebe's. Fair chance then avm228 is correct, and this might be the surname, 'Lawlaman' just how the English clerk has recorded it at the Fleet.
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That sounds promising Richard, Yes Lucy was born not far away, so maybe his father was one of the Huguenot weavers who escaped from St Quentin ? Have you any details please on the Hospital entry.
Great thanks to all for mamoth effort.
Best
John
p.s. Think we could call this completed, but if it could be kept on a little longer ? I might pick up more on the family Please
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But if the surname doesn't end in "ier" it may not be French or Huguenot ... ;)
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The Hospital entry relates to a Marie, widow of Robert L'allemande, age 65 years, her late father from St Quentin. So it is actually her family from St Quentin region. That said fair likelyhood the Lallemands were too as they tended to keep regional ties in the early years in London. For example the surname does have several entrys on Jean Paul Roelly's site.
One interesting one is the marriage of Robert Lalleman of Valenciennes, to Rachel the daughter of Louis Crommelin of St Quentin. Both families were wealthy cloth manufacturers and merchants. The Crommelins were probably the most important of the Calvinist families in St Quentin. Rachel's brother Louis Jr restarted the family business in exile in Ireland and bought over many Huguenots with him. The Crumlin Road in Belfast is named after him.
Ruskie is right in as much there were certainly just as many English silk weavers in the East End at this time. That said the fact his address is given as Spitalfields would point towards French Huguenot, as the English weavers at that date tended to live more in Shoreditch on the fringes of Spitalfields rather than in the parish itself. Also the Huguenot refugees marrying outside the community did not become the norm until the second half of the 18th century, and then this usually applied to the grandchildren and great grandchildren of the original wave of refugees to the area 1678-1698.
As we know Lucy/Louise was a first generation refugee coming to England with her parents aged 6, so it is probable she would have lived a fairly insular life within her own community, she would have been educated within the French Church schools, and it would not have been usual for her to have spoken much if any English at that date, which makes the idea of her marrying outside the community less likely, not impossible, but less likely.
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I can't find any trace of a Peter/Pierre using this surname in London or born there, only reference to anyone by that name I can find is in the 1987 book "The Huguenots and Ireland"
"Pierre Francis Lalleman went to Dublin for business reasons in 1729, aged 24, Pierre Lalleman was later a merchant in Dublin"
He would seem a bit old to be Lucy's husband, but not impossible.
A Lalleman family seems to have run a Cognac business in both London and Dublin at this time, and dominated the early trade alongside Richard Hennessy and Jean Martel. (mentioned 28 times in 'The Brandy Trade under the Ancien Régime' )
Whether the above Pierre was linked to this family I do not know. Can't find any trace of a death in London for Peter, or Lucy/Louise for that matter, or any children. If they moved to Ireland might explain it, but of course the marriage has him as a silk weaver in Spitalfields which doesn't seem to fit. Unless he went over to Dublin to work with the Crommelins through the St Quentin link?
Food for thought.
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This seems to be the Marie who was a patient of the French Hospital, died 1768, born circa 1686
The Artillery French Huguenot, Spitalfields,
Marie Lalemand, born 17 August, baptised 26 August 1721daughter of Robert and Marie Lalemand, baptised by Monsieur Barbauld, witnesses Philippe Caout and Marie Maison.
Royal Bounty Payments
Robert Lalman, his wife & child, commoners, ordinary payment, Petticoat Lane District, department of London and Spitalfields 2 pounds 11 shillings 1721-3
Robert Laleman, 50 years old, his wife and one child, commoners, ordinary payment 1 pound 2 shillings 6 pence Petticoat Lane District, department of London and Spitalfields 1727-8
Robert Laleman, Commoner, ordinary payment 1 pound 14 shillings Petticoat Lane District, department of London and Spitalfields 1728-9
The dates would certainly have fit very nicely for her and Robert to be parents to Peter/Pierre, but the evidence there seems to strongly suggest they only had the one child Marie, who was later married so did survive.
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Do you think with a name like that, he could have been Dutch, If so I suppose that he would be attached to the Walloon Church in London ?
It seems certain that he was a weaver and lived in the Christchurch area of Spitalfields, which I understand was not a bad address at that time for weavers ?
It does appear that Laulanie is ruled out, only one I can find was Ferdinand 1858 - 1906 from Agen. The more you look the more I think the name ending is 'man', which doesn't seem French, against that I don't think our Lucy was multilingual
Best
John
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"Lallemant is a French surname that may originate in the phrase "l’Allemand", meaning "the German." Variants of the name include: Laleman, Lalemand, Lalemant, Lalleman, L'allemand, and Lallemand." From Wikipedia
Valenciennes was part of the Walloon speaking region in northern France, so the family may have been Walloon, but since this area was annexed into France under Louis XIV, they were French too by that time. They would have used the French Huguenot churches in London. Most of the Huguenot churches in London and Holland were originally founded by Walloon refugees in the 16th century, then were more or less taken over by Huguenots in the next two centuries as they became the predominant Francophone refugees in those countries.
Spitalfields was a mixed bag. The weaving manufactuers lived pretty well in the streets around Spital Square, Christchurch Spitalfields, and Norton Folgate. But the majority of the weavers, even the master weavers, lived in crowded housing in the streets to the north of the parish, i.e Wheeler Street, Pheonix Street, St John Street, and to the south around Artillery Lane. The journeymen weavers were not far above the breadline, they needed constant help to survive during the arctic winters of the early 1740's from the Spitalfields 'soup', and from the 1760's onwards certainly life was a real struggle for them. They marched on parliament that decade and were described as 'walking skeletons'.
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I am trying to think of the name of someone (I think in the media), who had a surname very similar sounding to Lawlaman, but I just can't quite remember it .... I will keep racking my brains. :)
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I am considering how the surname would sound if spoken, because it may have been misheard or misinterpreted. These are a few possibilites, though I don't think any exists as a real surname:
Lawlerman
Laulerman
Lorlerman
Lawlaman
Also, have you traced Lucy, her family and previous marriage in case this gives you some clues as to orgins?
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Hello Ruskie
Yes, Lucy's family were also weavers, and they had come over in 1726, her first marriage was to either to a Hawkes or Dukes, who was a carpenter, at the moment am chasing the Hawkes to see if I can find a connection there.
Best
John
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As you point out Richard Spitalfields was really a mixed bag, we have Daniel Boitel (the son of Adrien Boitel - Who married Jeanne Eusebe) - Jeanne was Lucy's older sister.
Now Daniel and his son (also Daniel ) lived and worked at 14 Steward St in the liberty of the Artillery Ground, it appears the father had three wives, the son only one wife and no children, when he died was able to leave a lot of money, for example £500 to his cousin Peter Guichet and a further considerable amounts to St Matthews and the French Hospital, this was in 1826.
Whereas Michel Eusebe had to ask the Hospital for help in 1742 and in 1773 his son also was in the same bad situation. As you say a Mixed Bag !!
John
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Hello John
Yes Steward/Stewart Street was one of the very wealthy streets. Steward Street, Gun Street, Church Street, Wood Street and Princes Street were where the main concentration of silk manufacturers businesses and homes were in Spitalfields.
I have a list of the Huguenots who operated there in the 18th century which includes Daniel:
William Le Blond (Clock Maker) 1776-1800 31, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Obadiah Legrew (Silk Manufacturer) 1776-1800 28, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Guillemard & Sons (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1800 20 Steward Street, Spital fields
Robert Leblond (Silk Manufacturer) 1776-1800 18, Steward Street, Spitalfields
John Baptist Lemonier (Silk Manufacturer)1776-1800 18, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Peter Guillebaud (Silk Manufacturer) 1776-1800 16, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Daniel Boitel (Silk Manufacturer) 1776-1800 14, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Delahaye & Dupray, (Black Silk Weavers) 13, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Lambert John, (Silk-broker) 12, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Bartholomew Nenney (Silk Manufacturer)1776-1800 10, Steward Street, Spitalfields,
James Auber (Silk Manufacturer) 7, Steward Street, Spitalfields
John Duthoit (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 4, Steward Street, Spitalfields
A. P. Vansenten (Silk Manufacturer) 1776-1800 2, Stewart Street, Spitalfields
Abraham Delamare (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 Steward Street, Spitalfields
John Delamare (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 Steward Street, Spitalfields
William Jordan (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 Steward Street, Spitalfields
Peter Le Keux (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 Stewart Street, Spitalfields
John Lewis (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 Steward Street, Spitalfield
Stephen Beuzeville (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 Steward Street, Spitalfields
Peter Beuzeville (Silk Manufacturer) 1775-1800 Steward Street, Spitalfields
Peter Ferry Michel (Silk Manufacturer) 1776-1800 Stewart Street, Spitalfields
Some very distinguished names in the English silk weaving business there such as the Guillemards, Delamares and Aubers. Peter Le Keux also had premesis in Red Lion Street, his grandfather Charles Marescoe was one of the original three Huguenot refugees who started the Spitalfields silk weaving industry in the 1660's. Peter was one of the ten most wealthy Huguenots in Britain, he would have been a millionaire many times over by today's standards.
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Hi John, just an "outside the square" offering here - but what if Law is his middle name? Peter Law C???, just an observation after looking at the actual image.
Jo ???
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Hello Richard
That's great at least one of ours got somewhere, wonder if any of his work might be in the V&A ?
By 1823 he ( the younger) had moved to Wood St - question where is or was Wood street, have walked what is left of Steward St, but couldn't find Wood St ?
I suppose 'Marescoe' could not have ended up as Macaire ? And so solving the riddle of Solomon?
See Jo has come up with another possible ?
Thanks Jo.
Best
John
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Hello John
Woods Street had its name changed to 'Wilkes Street' in the 19th century. It runs directly off the side of Christchurch Spitalfields. I wrote a little article on it myself 'The Weavers of Wood Street' a few years back with potted genealogies of the various Huguenot families who lived there. Like Steward Street it was almost exclusively silk manufacturers living there, though unfortunately the scope of my own study was 1700-1800 so I have no information on the Boitels time there.
One of my own relations Daniel Debray, who was married to my great aunt Charlotte Mourgue, had his business there at 14 Wood Street. Some of the buildings still survive there:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rubens1577/6246676174/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rubens1577/6246676174/)
Daniel was born in Normandy, and with his business partner was one of the official silk weavers to the Tower Liberty, supplying the royal family with silks for their apartments at the Tower of London. He was one of the manufacturers who had their looms and premises attacked in the Spitalfields riots of the 1760's, which famously saw two weavers strung up outside the Salmon and Ball Public House on the Cambridge Road, Bethnal Green.
Thank you for sending your article through to me on your trip to France John, made for fascinating reading!
Richard
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Hello again Richard
Thanks for Wood/Wilkes street, yes I did walk past it !!!! Since fleet seem to be certain our man was a Silk Weaver and came from Christchurch Spitalfields, he should have been in those Streets somewhere, on your survey of Wood Street is there any name that might be near to our reading off the name?
Best
John
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Hello John
I have a database of all the silk manufacturers in Wood Street and wider Spitalfields, and Peter Lawlanan is not there or anyone with a similar sort of name. Bare in mind though these account for a fraction of the weavers, approximately 100 names in the 18th century, the manufacturers were the very top of the industry.
At the time around 15,000 working looms were in use in Spitalfields, and about 40,000 persons in total employed in the industry. Most of those were journeymen weavers. So the likelyhood is Peter would have been among the 99% plus in this later category. If they joined the Weavers Company sometimes apprenticeship records can be found for them. They may also appear on surviving tax records etc, but unfortunately no, not likely to appear on the trade directories like the wealthy manufacturers and brokers.
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Hello Richard
A needle in Haystack job is our man, when I get over to UK in the spring will have another dig around. Slightly off subject, but concerning Wood St did you happen to come across a John Samson & wife Mary living at 15 Wood street, he had strong ties with the Daniel Boitels ?
Maybe as much as I can do on family Eusebe for the moment now time to turn to the Boitels I think. Any thoughts on where the ones coming over in 1726 might have lived?
Best
John
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Hello John
John Samson is certainly listed in early 19th century trade directories as a silk manufacturer at that address, however I did limit the scope of my own study to the 18th century, and he doesn't seem to have been there at that time, the premises were occupied at that time by another silk manufacturer, Jean Michel Galiègue, a refugee to London with his father and brothers, from Wallincourt, Picardy in the 1760's.
Searched through all Peters listed on the land taxes in Spitalfields 1740-1760. Definitely no Peter Lalleman. Perhaps we are wrong to go down the route? Nearest listed is a Peter Lemon but would that have been transformed to Lawlaman? Not so sure.
There are some more references to the Peter Lalleman of Dublin on Ancestry, subscribing to some publications, he was married and he left a will, but everything links him to Dublin rather than London, so seems doubtful he is our man.
Peter Laleman, Male, 1738 Subscribed to 'A Political Essay upon Commerce' by Monsieur Melon, Translated, with some annotations, and remarks, (1738, BINDON, David. Dublin)
Peter Laleman, Male, 1738 Subscribed to 'A scriptural exposition of the Church-Catechism with devotions' (Fourth edn., 1738, HARRISON, Joseph. Dublin)
Peter Lalleman, Male, merchant in commerce, 1749, Subscribed to An essay towards an historical account of Irish coins, (1749, SIMON, James. Dublin)
Deaths 1779, Dublin 'In Pheonix Street, Mrs.Laleman, Lady of Peter Laleman, esq. formerly an eminent merchant'
Index to the Prerogative Wills of Ireland 1536-1810 : 1789 Peter Laleman, Dublin esq
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As for your second question John, the early church records for the Boitels are all at Threadneedle Street, and do not give an address. Nor do they appear on the Royal Bounty Records or the Spitalfields Soup which in a way is good, at least they wern't on the breadline, but does not help in locating their exact address. The Eusebes of course do appear on the Royal Bounty and were on the accounts for charity handed out in the Brick Lane District, so would have lived around there.
Earliest record I can find which does give an address for them is the burial of Adrien Boitel's daughter Esther in January 1742/3 at which time he was living in Bethnal Green. Brick Lane runs up into Bethnal Green, so they may not have been far from the Eusebes. North Spitalfields and Bethnal Green was largely the location of the poorer weavers, so it is surprising they do not appear on the charity records.
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Couple of earlier records John, under alternative spellings, which also give Bethnal Green as their location:
"Peter, son of Adrian Bortel, of Bethnal Green, Weaver, Buried St Dunstan's, Stepney 26 Sep 1737"
"Jane, daughter of Adrian Boitell, of Bethnal Green, Weaver, Buried St Dunstan's, Stepney 13 Sep 1740"
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No luck on the land taxes, Daniel Boitel is the earliest, also in Bethnal Green 1783 at Hare Street.
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Hello Richard
On Boitels we maybe getting there, if we look at the fact that Sclater/Bacon, stared building his leased estates of Swanfield (to the east of Brick Lane) and Harefield to the west in 1720, by the arrival in 1726 of Boitels and Eusebes both Bacon Street and Hare street were built. Now through long searching through Land Tax Ass books in tower Hamlets last summer, we had found that Adrien Boitel lived at 167 Bacon Street in 1755, and the house was still in Boitels possession until Jane died in 1771, when her husband Solomon Macaire moved to Turvill Street.
Hare street is a continuation of Bacon street across the other side of Brick Lane, so that you have Daniel there in 1783 seems very possible as by then he is married with children, however his wife Magdaline Guichet dies and he marries Susannah Pinot in 1787, and at that time is down as living in Artillery ground.
John
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Lucy's family,am not sure, all that is certain is that Hubert ( her brother ) lived at 122-124 St Johns Street from 1760 until taken into hospital in 1772 Maybe all the Eusebes lived there from the start as by 1742 Michel had gone, by 1731 Marie, Anne and Jeanne had all married, 1740 Lucy was also away, Michel Jnr was up in Swan Yard by 1743 at the latest What thinks you Richard.
Best
John
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Actually thinking about it my own ancestor Anthoine Deverdun claimed his Royal Bounty payments in the same district Brick Lane 1724-9 as the Eusebes but all the actual addresses I have for him are in Bethnal Green; Castle Street (1705), Silver Street (1709), Hare Street (1712) Turville Street (1739), therefore likely he was in Bethnal Green throughout this period.
Of course both Spitalfields and Bethnal Green were not yet parishes in their own right at the time the Royal Bounty Payments were made, but hamlets of Stepney, so when the Royal Bounty records refer to Brick Lane Spitalfields probably covers those living in Bethnal Green too, especially as this just referred to where the payments were made.
The payments in Spitalfields are divided into Petticoat Lane District/Brown's Lane District/Wheeler Street District/Brick Lane District. That roughly equates to where the four main church congregations met The Artillery, La Patente, Wheeler Street and St John's. St John's was/is off Brick Lane on the border of Bethnal Green so it would make sense those living there would go there to receive their payments.
In other words, the Eusebes may have been living in Bethnal Green from the start like the Boitel's appear to have been. All the early Boitel marriages are at St Matthew's Bethnal Green the first parish church built there.
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(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd160/Riche1979/map1767.jpg)
Also John the above image from the Huguenot map maker John Rocque (please ignore the arrows I have added which relate to another project) is quite useful. My great grandmother was born and raised on Hare Street in the 1890's. It's Cheshire Street today. It runs off Brick Lane and parrellel to St John's Street.
Swan Yard is not marked but I believe was on the east of this map Spitalfields/Shoreditch border, near Anchor Street, Hollywell Lane kind of area. Also shows Wood Street, Church Street, Princes Street, etc at the very bottom, the richer area where the manufacturer's lived. I know you have walked these streets already but it's a good refresher of what the streets would have looked like on the original plan.
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Hello Richard,
You mentioned to John that you have a database of silk manufacturers in Wood Street. Is there any information about a Richard Phillips?
My ancestor Samuel Beech, son of John of Shoreditch, was apprenticed to Richard Phillips of Wood Street, on 1st August 1782. Phillips was a member of the Fishmongers Co., but a weaver by trade.
I will be visiting Wood Street again soon during the 250 Revocation of Edict of Nantes commemorations, and would love to know if that particular house is one of the ones still there.
I have presumed that Samuel was of English stock. I have never been able to find his father's origins. But Samuel married Charlotte Lesar in 1790.
Her father Abraham was in the Haberdasher's Co., but was also a weaver by trade, son of Paul I think -again I have not found any definite antecedents but believe them to possibly be of Huguenot origin.
On a different topic, did you find the picture of the 3 generations of the Saunders family?
All the best,
Stella.
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Interesting discussion Richarde and John.
As as aside, have either of you experienced this whilst in the Spitalfields area?:
http://www.dennissevershouse.co.uk/
I visited on a cold winter evening in the festive season when it wasn't busy. Immensely enjoyable. extremely atmospheric, (a little pretentious ;) but I chose to ignore those bits). Unsure of historical accuracy and don't think it matters - but overall an amazing experience. Not everyone's cup of tea but this is really my thing. Highly recommended. (and a very nice website :))
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Hi John, if you have access to the "London, England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials 1538-1812" on Ancestry it would be good for you to look at the following images -the names are transcribed as:
Ann Lawlman d/o Peter Lawlman, 1683, St Luke's, Chelsea
Sarah Lawlman, d/o Peter Lawlman, 1685, St Luke's, Chelsea
Peter Lawdian, bap 1578, St Botolph, Aldgate (lots of Lawdian here)
John Lawaner from Vine St, bur 1698, St Botolph
William Lawbanna, bap 1572, St Michael, Wood St
Mrs Lawbonne, marr 1778, St Andrews, Middlesex.
Let me know what you think,
Jo :)
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Hello Stella
Richard Phillips is not listed in the trade directories for Wood Street. He is listed between 1767-1775 as a silk broker operating out of Mason's Court, Spitalfields, to the east of Brick Lane, (now part of Chicksand Street). He was married St Mary and St Stephen, Spitalfields 22 May 1765 to Magdalene Fremont, by license, which stated he was at the time of St Mary Whitechapel, over 25 years of age and she was of Christchurch, Spitalfields and over 21 years of age. The witness were John Fremont and Eleanor Phillips.
She was almost certainly then Madeleine Fremont, daughter of Jean/John Fremont and Susanne Le Maistre, baptised 30th March 1742 at La Patente, Spitalfields. John Fremont was a successful silk manufacturer, and at the time Samuel Beach was apprenticed was operating (with his sons) out of Wood Street at No.8. They have since changed the numbering, and this is today no.14, and in fact the same building pictured in my earlier link to John.
I think it is fairly likely then Richard Phillips at least was from an English background, and his marriage to Madeleine gave him an in to this lucrative family business, first as a broker, but later a weaver himself if he was sufficiently expert to train apprentices at Wood Street. This seems especially likely if he himself had originally been apprenticed into the fishmongers company.
On the other subject, no photos unearthed of the Saunders family in Great Bardfield to date unfortunately. Have a very weathered and damaged tin plate of my 3 x great grandfather Charles Saunders b.1849 Great Bardfield, with my 4xgreat grandmother Ann b.1817 Finchingfield, taken with my g-g grandfather in 1881 West Ham Park. Greatful and lucky to have that much I think. Maybe one day some more will turn up, we live in hope!
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Interesting discussion Richarde and John.
As as aside, have either of you experienced this whilst in the Spitalfields area?:
http://www.dennissevershouse.co.uk/
I visited on a cold winter evening in the festive season when it wasn't busy. Immensely enjoyable. extremely atmospheric, (a little pretentious ;) but I chose to ignore those bits). Unsure of historical accuracy and don't think it matters - but overall an amazing experience. Not everyone's cup of tea but this is really my thing. Highly recommended. (and a very nice website :))
Hello Ruskie,
Yes one of the gems of Spitalfields Dennis Server's house, and the story of how it came to be almost as interesting as the house itself! I heard it was up for sale a year or so back for over a million, and there was a campaign to keep it going, not sure what the current status is, but do hope it's future as a living exhibit is secure, it would be a great shame otherwise.
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Oh God I hope it is not sold, or if it is, to someone who will continue it on unaltered. I visited in December 2010, and I have read some fairly recent reviews on Trip Advisor so presumably it is still operating as before. An amazing house. I am looking forward to visiting it again on my next visit to London.
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Hello Ruskie
Da! if still open will go to see it when I next get over.
Ref ' dead men don't tell tales ' Just as well I suppose - or we wouldn't have Rootschat !
Best
John
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Hello Richard
Could there be a second Adrien Boitel do you think ? Re burials - Peter in 1737 was the same year as Daniel was born - and Jane in 1740 would fit - if she was a child death ? with the exception that Jeanne/Jane born in 1734 was still alive, married to our bete noir -Solomon Macaire and having her own babies. Is there any indication that they were child deaths ?
How does one get hold of the Weavers Guild Apprentices register please ?
Best
John
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Hello Stella
What, where, when and Why are there 'Revocation of the Edict of Nantes celebrations' Please.
Best
John
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Hi again John,
I forgot to say that the reason why, is that it is the 250 anniversary of the Revocation & that was what brought the floods of Huguenots to our shores.
Stella.
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Hello John
I think Stella is referring to this:
http://www.huguenotsofspitalfields.org/
Various celebrations in April in Spitalfields commemorating the 250th anniversary of the death of Anna Maria Garthwaite, an important figure in the silk industry, and the 415th anniversary of the signing of the Edict of Nantes, rather than the revocation.
Looks interesting, and part of the itinary includes a tour of Dennis Server's house, so looks like it is still there and in good health!
Not sure about your point on Adrian Boitel John. I did not think there was more than one by that name? Bit confused there, might need to elaborate a bit for me on that.
The burials would be children yes, ages not stated but the parents name being given usually indicates a child, or perhaps on occasion an unmarried adult daughter.
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Hello Ruskie
Da! if still open will go to see it when I next get over.
Ref ' dead men don't tell tales ' Just as well I suppose - or we wouldn't have Rootschat !
Best
John
;D
I would like to be in town in April for the celebrations. I see that opening hours to Denis Severs' house have been extended. I am very pleased that it obviously remains operating as it has been.
You should go John. ;)
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Morning Richard
So if there is no other Adrien Boitel these two must be as you say child deaths - on Jane, there is a big enough gap between Daniel (Snr) born 18th Feb 1737, and Ester (child death)1742.
Peter, if it is the end of the year would also be okay - we have already a Pierre b.15th Mar 1733 -
but he appears to have a wife Anne X b.1736 d. 1802 ( wife of Peter Boitel ).
Did you have by chance Temionage for the Boitels, how many and when please, when you have the time.
Best
John
Looked out the windows this morning - No snow - whoopee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hello John
This is how the children of Adrien Boitel and Jeanne Eusebe appear to stack up when the tesmoignages are also examined:
1) Susanne Boitel born 3 May 1729, baptised Threadneedle Street 11 May 1729
2) Marie Boitel, born 25 Dec 1730, baptised Threadneedle Street 10 Jan 1731 Tesmoignage Threadneedle Street 26 March 1749 aged 18
3) Pierre Boitel, born 15 March 1733, baptised Threadneedle Street 25 March 1733 , Buried St Dunstan's, Stepney 26 Sep 1737
4) Jeanne Boitel, born 5 Jan 1735, baptised Swanfields, Spitalfields 5 Jan 1735 buried St Dunstan's, Stepney 13 Sep 1740
5) Daniel Boitel, born 18 Feb 1737, baptised Threadneedle Street 6 March 1737 Tesmoignage Threadneedle Street 23 Feb 1755 aged 18
6) Esther Boitel , born circa 1739/40?, buried St Dunstan's, Stepney January 1742/3.
7) Jeanne Boitel, born circa 1741?, Tesmoignage Threadneedle Street 24 June 1759 on testimony of Mons. Du Bouley Married Solomon Macaire 1761?
As you see above the only three to join Threadneedle Street as adults were Marie, Daniel and Jeanne, which might suggest they were the only three surviving children of Adrian. Marie and Daniel's Tesmoignages give their age as 18 which matches with the baptisms for them. Jeanne's does not state her age, but it is likely to be similar so a probable birth year around 1741. Since we know Adrian had a least one daughter around that time Esther whose baptism is missing, hers could well be too. Certainly I think the burial does relate to the daughter born 1735. An age of 24 at Tesmoignage for a girl (a daughter of an existing member) is almost unheard of, too old.
No snow here either John, plenty of dead snowmen ;D
Regards
Richard
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Hello again
Jeanne/Jane Boitel marriage to Solomon Macaire 1761 Jane also shows on Tax Ass at 1760 to 1771 at 167 Bacon Street as seen at Tower Hamlets. Am about to look into others.
Thanks yet again
John
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I have also a Pierre Boitel b. 1702 in Ronssoy, Adrien's Brother.
He shows up as a weaver living in East Smithfield, married to a Susannah, and baptising his son Peter on 16th Oct 1726 at St Johns Wapping .
Adrien's son Pierre b. 1733 seems to be attached to a wife Anne X who was born in 1736 and died in 1802 - wife of Peter Boitel.
Susanne appears ok, b. 1729 died 1787 Widow but of who?
Marie no problem went on to marry Vatin and easy to follow through.
Daniel's first marriage was to Magdaline Guichet in 1769 - they had three children - first being Daniel in 1770 - Jeanne 1771 & Marie Madgaline in 1774. This is where it gets confusing - as according to a licence I have he then married in 1787 Sussanah Pinot - then in 1790 ONE of them married Anne Mauger - which both were old enough ! Otherwise Huguenot Soc. have a file on Daniel which I will have to take another look at.
At the time I only had Jeanne born in 1734, so thought that it was her who married Solomon and therefore did not think of her death until 1771 when her last child was born - now I have another Jeanne/Jane, it is more likely to be what you have said.
Have you any Boitels on Temionage before 1726 by any chance - please
Best
John
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There is marriage between a William Stedman and Susanne Boitet at St Botolph, Bishop's Gate, London 10 Feb 1760, at least that is how Ancestry have transcribed it. Looking at the image it could be Boitel. St Botolph is very near Spitalfields. She doesn't appear to have joined Threadneedle Street as an adult, and this marriage to an English man might show then she was not following in the family traditions and their Calvinist faith. Where does the information you have on her burial come from? Does this not state her married name?
Could it not be Pierre the son of Pierre sr who married Anne x? The burial would seem to account for Adrian's son and rule him out.
Those three are the only tesmoignages for the Boitel family. (Daniel rejoined in 1787 when La Patente and the Artilllery were closed and their congregations merged with Threadneedle). Was Adrien Boitel a prisoner also in France? If so he would have been exempt from the need for a tesmoignage and could join automatically.
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Hello Richard
To my knowledge; Adrien was not a prisoner, and am not sure about his faith, could he simply be following his Jeanne Eusebe over to the UK. Jean-Paul seems to think that the family were catholic - but to what extent ?
Think I got info on Susanne off Ancestors library site in Tower Hamlets, but no married name.
Best
John
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Hello John
I found the Ann Boitel burial from 1802, but there is just her age given on the record, it doesn't say anywhere there she was the wife of a Peter?
Susanne I am still a bit confused on, if we don't know her married name, how can we know she died in 1787? She would have been buried in England under her married name. If we don't know that information how was the correct burial identified?
There is a burial 1 Jul 1787 at St Mary Stole Newington,for a 'Susanne Bowtell'. Interesting burial as it notes the 'death was occasioned by the bit of a mad dog'..nasty! However this can not be your susanne as she was born Susannah Burgin and married her husband Edward Bowtell at St leonard's Shoreditch 11 months earlier.
Is there some other source you have for her death that year, a family will perhaps? A Susannah Stedman was buried at Christchurch Spitalfields, but the age is a decade or so younger than Susanne.
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Hello Richard
Think I have as the French would say ' a right bordel' there, Somehow I have picked up ( poss because when searching for Eusebe or Boitel, I always press the variant button ) the poor Susanne bitten by a mad dog. Regarding the other Susanne, she would be 31 when married, but why not.
Best John
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It appears that very few of the weavers that came over were able to make much of a living, and the few that did only for a short period.
Whereas the ones who stayed in France, kept their faith, somehow managed to plod slowly on
singing a song, or this is how it seems to be for our Eusebe family.
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Hello Richard
Have you please more details on Susanne Boitel and Stedman - like date of deaths and what work Stedman did ?
Best
John
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Hello John
The wedding William Stedman and Susanne Boitet, at St Botolph, Bishop's Gate, London 10 Feb 1760, doesn't give an occupation detail for him. Witnesses were John Sullivan and Frances Hopkins.
Only burial I can find for a Susanne Stedman in the East End is at Christchurch, Spitalfields Feb 1788, of Pearl Street aged 46. This would give a birth year around 1741/2, so it would seem to suggest she is not one and the same as Susanne Boitel.
I cannot find a burial for Susanne as an infant, but I do find it strange Adrien Boitel's other three children would be inducted into the Threadneedle Street church at reaching 18, but not his eldest, if she had survived. Doesn't seem to fit well.
Also could the Ann buried in 1803, actually be Ann Mauger the wife of Daniel?
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Yes Richard
Sure you are right about Ann being Ann Mauger Old Daniel had not long gone -1797, and with Pierre gone , we really have no choice? - Boitels don't have much luck either, Adrien had lost Three out of six of his brothers and sisters. Old Daniel seemed quite well off despite having had three wives, so one would have thought, when Ann died, they would have mentioned his name.
None of the Susannes seem to fit as you say, unless they are children of Adrien's older brother Pierre, who was living in East Smithfields and baptising in St Johns Wapping, and where would Edward fit in (wife bitten by mad dog) Is it possible there is another Boitel Family ?
Best
John
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John
I think the evidence points to Adrien being the only Boitel to to come to London, possibly as you say following Jeanne Eusebe here, and three surviving children to them, Mary, Daniel and Jeanne, they are the only three who appear to have reached adulthood according to the tesmoignage records, and this does match with the fact these are the only three who appear in local marriage records and can have families traced for them.
I don't believe Susanne Boutet is the elder daughter, the burial age for her is way out, and there is also another instance of the Boutet name near by at St Botolph Bishops Gate, William Boutet christened 6 March 1753 to Edward and Esther Boutet.
The one source for your Peter also looking at the image is clearly 'Boutet'
St John Wapping 1726 'Peter, son of Peter Boutet, weaver, and Susanne his wife East Smithfields.
The Boutets were a quite seperate Huguenot family, and the name would have been pronounced quite differently from Boitel, and in fact most of that couple's children were baptised in the French Church at The Artillery between 1716-1739 as Boutet, her maiden name down as Landon. So he can be ruled out as Adrian's brother.
Likewise I don't think Edward Bowtell and the Susanne bitten by a mad dog were in any way related. Bowtell seems to be a common name escpecially linked with that parish St Botolphs, entries dating right back to the earliest registers in the 1570's! The similarity with Boitel in pronunciation seems to be a coincidence.
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Found the marriage of that couple, which further confirms he is not related to your Boitels
7 Nov 1714 Wheeler Street Huguenot, Spitalfields:
"Pierre Boutet, son of Jean Boutet and Susanne Monnet married Susanne Landon, daughter of Samuel Landon and Marie Poignard. Married by Mons. Cregut, Minister. Witnesses Samuel Landon and Michel Poinineau."
The Boutets had come over alot earlier at least by the 1690's.
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Daniel's first marriage was to Magdaline Guichet in 1769 - they had three children - first being Daniel in 1770 - Jeanne 1771 & Marie Madgaline in 1774. This is where it gets confusing - as according to a licence I have he then married in 1787 Sussanah Pinot - then in 1790 ONE of them married Anne Mauger - which both were old enough !
John
Also regards this John, I think all three marriages were for the older Daniel. Obviously the first is him without doubt. At the time of the marriage in 1787, Susanne joined Threadneedle on the testimony 'of her husband'. This would not be possible for the younger Daniel as despite being baptised there, he never joined Threadneedle at all, so could not vouch for her if she was his wife. 17 is almost unheard of for a Huguenot marriage anyway, generally the men were at least in mid twenties, they married significantly older than the surrounding population tended too. The third marriage of course has Daniel Jr as the witness, and both parties as widowed, and the death of Daniel in 1797 and Ann soon after in 1802 also seems to fit.
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Afternoon Richard
Will now spend the next few hours rewriting the Boitels, think that is now all correct, means also that Pierre ( Adrien's brother never came over ), Jean- Paul thinks that the side of the Boitel family that is Adrien's was possibly Catholic, where the others down the road in Templeux, were split between the two religions, for example we know that Jean Baptiste Boitel from Templeux was Huguenot. So no boitels left on the shelf, will return to the Eusebes !!
Still also chasing Samsons on other post but just need the 1871 census for them, Sharon has done well and I have the other census including 1881 so that gives me an idea of how it might have gone for the Boitels, will post the write up on site when I can finish it as there might be other Samsons searching Samsons!!
Best
John
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Hello John
Yes just had a look at the Ronssoy registers myself and Adrien and his siblings certainly don't have anything out of the ordinary recorded on their baptisms, and are down as born in legitimate marriage. Of course it varies from parish to parish and on the personal inclinations of the cleric but usually there was some indication if the child was protestant, a note of illegitimacy at very least, or the child bought into the church by midwife, or neighbours. Some were very explicit, the worse I have come across from the period was a cleric who wrote something along the lines of 'today I baptised the miserable bastard of two devious huguenots, the child born forever dead to the love and mercy of God'! Eye opener to the attitudes faced by the majority of Protestants who remained in France.
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Hello John
Yes Steward/Stewart Street was one of the very wealthy streets. Steward Street, Gun Street, Church Street, Wood Street and Princes Street were where the main concentration of silk manufacturers businesses and homes were in Spitalfields.
I have a list of the Huguenots who operated there in the 18th century which includes Daniel:
William Le Blond (Clock Maker) 1776-1800 31, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Obadiah Legrew (Silk Manufacturer) 1776-1800 28, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Guillemard & Sons (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1800 20 Steward Street, Spital fields
Robert Leblond (Silk Manufacturer) 1776-1800 18, Steward Street, Spitalfields
John Baptist Lemonier (Silk Manufacturer)1776-1800 18, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Peter Guillebaud (Silk Manufacturer) 1776-1800 16, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Daniel Boitel (Silk Manufacturer) 1776-1800 14, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Delahaye & Dupray, (Black Silk Weavers) 13, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Lambert John, (Silk-broker) 12, Steward Street, Spitalfields
Bartholomew Nenney (Silk Manufacturer)1776-1800 10, Steward Street, Spitalfields,
James Auber (Silk Manufacturer) 7, Steward Street, Spitalfields
John Duthoit (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 4, Steward Street, Spitalfields
A. P. Vansenten (Silk Manufacturer) 1776-1800 2, Stewart Street, Spitalfields
Abraham Delamare (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 Steward Street, Spitalfields
John Delamare (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 Steward Street, Spitalfields
William Jordan (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 Steward Street, Spitalfields
Peter Le Keux (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 Stewart Street, Spitalfields
John Lewis (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 Steward Street, Spitalfield
Stephen Beuzeville (Silk Manufacturer) 1751-1775 Steward Street, Spitalfields
Peter Beuzeville (Silk Manufacturer) 1775-1800 Steward Street, Spitalfields
Peter Ferry Michel (Silk Manufacturer) 1776-1800 Stewart Street, Spitalfields
Some very distinguished names in the English silk weaving business there such as the Guillemards, Delamares and Aubers. Peter Le Keux also had premesis in Red Lion Street, his grandfather Charles Marescoe was one of the original three Huguenot refugees who started the Spitalfields silk weaving industry in the 1660's. Peter was one of the ten most wealthy Huguenots in Britain, he would have been a millionaire many times over by today's standards.
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I saw your discussion about Spitalfields. I wondered where the list came from. I am researching the LeBlond family who were in the area in the 1700s, with baptisms etc in the Artillery and Threadneedle St churches. My ancestor Margueritte LeBlond, daughter of Jean LeBlond & Margueritte DeCaux, married Jonathan Green in 1753. I can look up baptisms etc, but I wondered if you had any suggestions as where to look for additional information on this family.
Thank you
Linda Green