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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: EdwinReffell on Wednesday 16 January 13 18:41 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone give me any information on the maiden name of Mary who married Bernard TRAYNOR and was the mother of Rosanna born about 1839 in Manchester and of the following all born in Pendleton Edward about 1841, Mary about 1843, Bernard about 1847, John Henry about 1849, Thomas about 1851 and Ellen about 1853? I am trying to establish the birthplaces of the parents, who were born about 1820 somewhere in Ireland. Thank you for any information you give me.
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As I explained on your other topic, the children's birth certificates will list mother's maiden name which will make it easier to start searching for the parents' marriage.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,631753.msg4795701.html#msg4795701
Once you have Mary's maiden name you can start by searching for the marriage in England (since it should show on FreeBMD if after 1837).
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I was just about to post exactly the same suggestion (didn't know about prev topic)
Births June qtr 1846
Bernard Traynor Salford 20 981
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If I have picked up the correct 1881 census the area of birth in Ireland are shown
RG11 3967 99 7
The first child's birth is registered in the Deansgate area of Manchester on Lancashirebmd.org.uk this will show her mother's previous and maiden names....
I would think that the children were baptised in a 'non conformistchurch' i.e not CoE these registers are only just starting to be digitalized and being put on line
Certificates from www.gro.gov.uk
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Thank you for your reply. I am doing this for an inlaw's cousin. He has cited from the 1881 census a Bernard and Mary TRAYNOR visiting AITKINs at 15 Lilla Street, Salford. Source: FHL Film 1341947 but is unsure if they are his ancestors. It is PRO Ref RG11 Piece 3967 Folio 99 Page 7. It says Bernard was born in Monaghan Co. Is that the one you have picked or is there another better one? In 1891 Bernard is a widow living with his son Thomas in Pendleton but there it says Bernard was born in Dublin not Monaghan Co. The problem is was he born in Monaghan Co or in Dublin and was he born in 1816, 1817 or 1821 as it says in the various censuses? He is not found in the 1901 or 1911 censuses but there is no death record for him either. Perhaps he returned to Ireland after 1881. I am most grateful for your help.
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Which of the Traynor children is he descended from as that should determine whether you have the right family?
If it is the one quoted in your first post - then your relative needs to invest in a copy of one of the birth certs as recommended above and previously
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Hello,
there is a death for a Bernard Traynor aged 67 yrs in 1891 Salford.
Given the discrepancies in age and that there doesn't look to be another candidate in 1891, it may be worth looking at this one.
regards
heywood
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Did John Henry Traynor born 1849 Salford go to America?
If so, his parents were Bernard Traynor and Mary Hoey
www.familysearch.org
Heather
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He has cited from the 1881 census a Bernard and Mary TRAYNOR visiting AITKINs at 15 Lilla Street, Salford. Source
Yes this is the same one!
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1871 census.
1 St.Margarets pl, New Monkland Lanarkshire
Bernard Traynor wife Sarah
& 3 children John Patrick & mary ann
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I am trying to establish the birthplaces of the parents, who were born about 1820 somewhere in Ireland.
According to census returns Bernard was born 1811 & Mary 1816
I can find the family at
1841 HO107 543 3
1861 RG9 2902 18 9
1881 RG11 3967 99 7
1891 TG 12 3205 1932 Percy Street. Bernard is a widower living with son Thomas
This family were still at Percy Street in 1911. I cannot see another death entry than the one given, the information shown is only as good as the informant knows....Contact the local Registry Office and enquire whether the infomant was son Thomas of Percy Street
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Thank you for this information. I have searched the marriage records for all Ireland and only found 2 marriages with a Bernard TRAYNOR married to a Mary, one in 1822 (much too early) and the other in 1847 (they were in England). Since their first child Rosanna is born about 1837 they may have married in England after they arrived in 1836 or earlier.
Here they are in 1851 census
1851 Census
HO 107/2222 Transcription # A098..Page 31
Shed # 111
Pimblott St.
Bernard Traynor.......Head..Mar....................................all blank..............
Mary Traynor..........wife..mar.......................................all blank..............
Rosanna Traynor......Dau...............................................all blank.............
Edward Traynor.......Son...11.........................................all blank...............
Bernard Traynor.......Son...4.........................................born...Lancs.
Mary Traynor..........Dau.....3.......................................born...Lancs (abt 1848 5yrs different to 1861 census, I guess it should read age 8 meaning birth abt. 1843)
John H Traynor........Son.....2........................................born Lancs.
Bernard and Mary could not be found in the 1871 census.
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Not much to help you but here they are in 1871 4008/ 21/ 2
15 Broad Steet Pendleton
Bernard Fraynor 60 yrs Tailor b Ireland
Mary wife 58 yrs b Ireland
Edward son 30 yrs Clerk in Warehouse
Mary daur 24 yrs Unemployed
Bernard son 22 yrs Clerk in Post Office
Thomas son 19 yrs Tailor
Ellen daur 17 yrs Dressmaker
Arthur R Sykes grandson 2 yrs b Sale Cheshire
children born Pendleton
As has been said before, the children's birth certificates (the Pendleton born ones) would give you Mary's maiden name which may then help with a search for the marriage or place of origin.
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Great looks like the full set now!
Arthur R Sykes grandson 2 yrs b Sale Cheshire
This is probably Rosanna's son I have picked up she married William SYKES 1863 , the Registrar attended the marriage which confirms non conformist or Registry Office! I would be inclined to look for a local RC churc and check the Parish Records for the childrens baptisms thye may have the mother's maiden name
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/PendletonS/StSebastian.shtml
otherwise you will need to purchase one of the childrens birth cert
Rosanna was b Oct - Dec 1837 in the Deansgate area of Manchester.Unless the parents married in the quarter 1 July 1837 when regisdtration started, you are looking at Parish records for the marriage
All the other children were born in Pendleton all but Bernrads year of birth are correct on the census calculation Bernard waas b 1846
Lancashirebmd.org.uk
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Neil has just emailed me that he has the birth certificate for Edward born in 1841 in Pendleton and that Mary's maiden name is given as HOYLE or MOYLE. I have looked that up in the Irish web pages and found a church marriage in 1835 in Co Mayo of a Mary MOYLES but nothing of that year for a TRAYNOR or the like. Perhaps they married after they came to England which I suppose was about 1835. Their first child Rosanna was born in Deansgate, Manchester in 1837. Has anyone any suggestions about what I can do to find out more about the marriage of Bernard and Mary if it was before 1837 in England?
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Hi
So the one on familysearch might be them mother's name Hoey ;)
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I looked at the image for John Henry's marriage in USA where his mother's maiden name is given as HOEY. It gives his father as Bernard Richard. Neil thinks it very unlikely that it is his Bernard as there is no occurrence of the name Richard in the family. However he does not have the middle name of his Bernard so he is going to try and track the other children of Bernard Richard to see if they are the same as his Bernard's children. Do you have any suggestions how to track them? Thank you for your help.
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Richard is the father of John H's wife.
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Thank you for your answer. Does that mean that I have misread what is in the image of the US marriage details for John H TRAYNOR? If Bernard and not Bernard Richard is the name of John H's father then he is very interesting again.
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Yes - it is difficult when you first look at it because of the lines and columns.
It reads: Father Mother
John H Traynor Bernard Mary Hoey
Elizabeth (Hope) McCaslin Richard Martha Entwistle
(When I preview this, it doesn't quite line up but I hope you can see what I mean :))
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Thank you. Because of that I assume that Mary's maiden name is something like HOEY or HOYLE though I have not been able to find their marriage using those search names.
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Neil is pretty sure now that the John H TRAYNOR who married in USA in 1907 is the son of his Bernard and Mary and is most grateful to everyone at RootChat for all the help you have so kindly given. As well as that marriage details giving HOEY as maiden name of Mary the birth certificate Neil has for Edward gives HOYLE. I have searched both in Irish birth records for 1816 but not found Mary nor is there any marriage for Mary under either of those surnames. Neil will by and by get the other birth certificates of Bernard and Mary's children to see if they give any other suggestion for maiden name or corroborate one of the 2 we already have.
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Yes - it is difficult when you first look at it because of the lines and columns.
It reads: Father Mother
John H Traynor Bernard Mary Hoey
Elizabeth (Hope) McCaslin Richard Martha Entwistle
(When I preview this, it doesn't quite line up but I hope you can see what I mean :))
Can i just butt in :) Is there any connection here with Elizabeth (Hope) McCaslin and John H Traynor. Very interested if there is ?
Jo
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Yes - it is difficult when you first look at it because of the lines and columns.
It reads: Father Mother
John H Traynor Bernard Mary Hoey
Elizabeth (Hope) McCaslin Richard Martha Entwistle
(When I preview this, it doesn't quite line up but I hope you can see what I mean :))
Can i just butt in :) Is there any connection here with Elizabeth (Hope) McCaslin and John H Traynor. Very interested if there is ?
Jo
Hello Jo,
that's the marriage and it looks as though it is the same John H Traynor. Is Elizabeth Hope McCaslin in your family?
heywood
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According to Neil, who has a John Henry TRAYNOR as an ancestor, this US document is probably the marriage of his John Henry who is with his family in the following corrected census for Pendleton, Salford, Lancashire:
1861 census (corrected)
Bernard Traynor.......Head...40..1811...Where born: Ireland...Tailor
Mary Traynor..........Wife...40..1816...Where born: Ireland
Rosanna Traynor.....Dau....22..abt 1837...Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Edward Traynor........Son....20..abt 1841...Where born: Pendleton, Lancashire, England...Merchant Clerk
Mary Traynor..........Dau....18..abt 1843...Where born: Pendleton, Lancashire, England (5yrs different to 1851)
Bernard Traynor.......Son....14..abt 1846...Where born: Pendleton, Lancashire, England...Warehouse Boy
John Henry Traynor....Son....12..abt 1849...Where born: Pendleton, Lancashire, England
Thomas Walter Traynor........Son....10..abt 1851...Where born: Pendleton, Lancashire, England
Ellen Jane Traynor.........Dau.....8..abt 1853...Where born: Pendleton, Lancashire, England.
We know Bernard and Mary come from Ireland but since they were probably Catholic we have not found them there. They probably came to England about 1835. For Mary's maiden name we have HOYLE (from Edward's birth certificate) or HOEY (the US marriage document). Rosanna was probably christened either in St Mary Mulberry St (this is
on CD see our online book shop www.mlfhs.org.uk) or St Chad which is being
digitized now and therefore not searchable. The others were probably christened in St Sebastian's in Pendleton whose records can be located by contacting Canon Liam Houlihan and if you ring the presbytery he should be able to give you the information you seek. If they are not kept there then he will know where they have been lodged. The telephone is 0161 736 1774 in England. or snail post to Gerald Road, Charlestown, Pendleton, M6 6DL If I had been able to email them I would have done so. We have not pursued that so far. Genuki would also like to know where the parish records for St Sebastian are kept. If you would like to contact Neil email me and I shall ask him if I may give you his email address.
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Hello Jo,
that's the marriage and it looks as though it is the same John H Traynor. Is Elizabeth Hope McCaslin in your family?
heywood
interested in Elizabeth ( Hope ) McCaslin, who was married to Joseph McCaslin who was the brother of my 2 x great grandfather. I thought she had died as he married Emma Hardacre in 1876.
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According to Neil, who has a John Henry TRAYNOR as an ancestor, this US document is probably the marriage of his John Henry who is with his family in the following corrected census for Pendleton, Salford, Lancashire:
1861 census (corrected)
Bernard Traynor.......Head...40..1811...Where born: Ireland...Tailor
Mary Traynor..........Wife...40..1816...Where born: Ireland
Rosanna Traynor.....Dau....22..abt 1837...Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Edward Traynor........Son....20..abt 1841...Where born: Pendleton, Lancashire, England...Merchant Clerk
Mary Traynor..........Dau....18..abt 1843...Where born: Pendleton, Lancashire, England (5yrs different to 1851)
Bernard Traynor.......Son....14..abt 1846...Where born: Pendleton, Lancashire, England...Warehouse Boy
John Henry Traynor....Son....12..abt 1849...Where born: Pendleton, Lancashire, England
Thomas Walter Traynor........Son....10..abt 1851...Where born: Pendleton, Lancashire, England
Ellen Jane Traynor.........Dau.....8..abt 1853...Where born: Pendleton, Lancashire, England.
We know Bernard and Mary come from Ireland but since they were probably Catholic we have not found them there. They probably came to England about 1835. For Mary's maiden name we have HOYLE (from Edward's birth certificate) or HOEY (the US marriage document). Rosanna was probably christened either in St Mary Mulberry St (this is
on CD see our online book shop www.mlfhs.org.uk) or St Chad which is being
digitized now and therefore not searchable. The others were probably christened in St Sebastian's in Pendleton whose records can be located by contacting Canon Liam Houlihan and if you ring the presbytery he should be able to give you the information you seek. If they are not kept there then he will know where they have been lodged. The telephone is 0161 736 1774 in England. or snail post to Gerald Road, Charlestown, Pendleton, M6 6DL If I had been able to email them I would have done so. We have not pursued that so far. Genuki would also like to know where the parish records for St Sebastian are kept. If you would like to contact Neil email me and I shall ask him if I may give you his email address.
Have found different contact & e mail address so sent an e mail, copy has been posted to you via PM
Need to see what the response is!
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Hello Jo,
In the 1907 marriage document she is a widow.
Kind regards,
Edwin
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Hi Edwin
Thanks for the info you PMd me.. Interesting.. As she was born the same time as Elizabeth Hope who Married Joseph McCaslin.. her parents were then Richard & Martha Hope (nee Entwistle)... She states she is widowed on the marriage document. Now Joseph married Emma Hardacre in 1876. I thought Elizabeth had died.. seemingly not.. now to try and find her in censuses between 1871-1901.. I have her in 1861 , living with Joseph and their baby son... who i have found living in a later census with Joseph & Emma.. wonder what happened for her marriage to break and leave her child. This is why i thought she had died
:o
Jo
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Hello,
I have just heard that my brother has contacted St Sebastian's in Pendleton and was told that the parish records from before the 1890s are not kept there. My brother did not say if he was told where the records are kept. so I have emailed him and asked. Let us hope that he did get the information on where the records for before 1890 are kept so I can tell Neil and send it to Genuki.
Kind regards,
Edwin
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Hello,
are you referring to the baptisms in 1840s? Why do you think they would take place at St Sebastian's?
regards
heywood
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Hello,
My TRAYNOR people were Catholic from Ireland and except for the birth of Rosanna their first child who was christened in Manchester they lived in Pendleton. Therefore I believe their children were christened at St Sebastian's Catholic Church in Pendleton.
Edwin
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According to this http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/PendletonS/StSebastian.shtml, there wasn't a Catholic church in Pendleton at that time. :-\
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Thank you for pointing that out to me. I never thought of that. The next time i shall read the history of the church in question in Genuki. Now I have something more to delve into.
Kind regards,
Edwin
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Hello Everyone,
Thanks to all for your great help in enabling me to break through a brick wall!! And also finding my 1st distant Traynor cousin (other thread). So I have now signed up to RC. Thanks to Edwin for posting on my behalf (as wife says I don't have time for this, she's probably right but sometimes I just can't help it! ha! ha!).
I did find John H Traynor in the US census some years ago but with only limited info I couldn't be sure it was my John H, however I am now certain it is him as I have tracked him through all census records, immigration etc and they all fit (& no death record in UK either).
Jo, so yes it certainly seems that "my" John H Traynor did marry your Elizabeth Hope/Mccaslin. From your last response it would seem "Elizabeth Hope" & Elizabeth Mccaslin" must be one and the same person, I mean what are the chances of having parents with the same names & being born on the same day (where they born in the same place?). The lack of a death record would also seem to support her being the same person. Someone must have entered the wrong name for her parents.
Also Edwin tells me John seems to have a mystery of his own as in the 1900 census it says he was married & had been for 25yrs. This would mean marriage circa 1875 (so before he went to US), I've not found one in Lancashire in that year (I'm not currently subscribed to any site as I'm not "supposed" to be doing any research what with my very young family) but there is the following one in 1872, though I have doubts it's him as marriage took place in Manchester Cathedral & it's not a RC church (maybe she was CofE).
Marriages Mar 1872
Green Sarah Ann Manchester 8d 324
TRAYNER John Manchester 8d 324
There only seems to be 1 possible child in the years immediately after born to a John & Sarah (born locally) (ref. IGI)
Alice Trainor who was christened 28 Mar 1877 in St Bartholomew, Salford.
Haven't found any immigration records (on IGI). So still a bit of a mystery as to who/where/when he married, or if he did indeed marry before.
Jo please PM me so we can discuss & swap info.
Thanks again
Neil
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Hello to those researching Bernard Traynor and Mary Hoey / Hoy and specificially their son Edward Traynor and Sarah Ellen Kay and their son John Henry Traynor who emigrated to America.
I am distantly related to Sarah Ellen Kay who married Edward Traynor. Their 1st born son Bernard Thomas Astley Traynor was named after his paternal grandfather and as Thomas Astley Jordan the step-father of Sarah.
As of 1851 at least, there was a RC church named Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist in Salford, otherwise commonly known as Salford Cathedral and in it, the last 2 children of Bernard and Mary were baptised with 1 record giving Mary's maiden name as "Hoey" and the other as "Hoy" so because John gave her maiden name as Hoey as well, I would lean toward that one myself.
Baptism: 8 Jun 1851 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire, England
Thomas W. Trainor - [Child] of Bernard Trainor & Mary (formerly Hoey)
Born: 13 Apr 1851
Godparents: Edwd. Trainor; Jane Roche
Baptised by: Denis Byrne
Register: Baptisms 1843 - 1855, Page 94
Source: Original Register at LRO
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Baptism: 24 Apr 1853 Cathedral Church of St John the Evangelist, Salford, Lancashire, England
Ellen Jane Traynor - [Child] of Bernard Traynor & Mary (formerly Hoy)
Born: 9 Apr 1853
Godparents: Edward Traynor; Bridget McCormick
Baptised by: James Wilding
Register: Baptisms 1843 - 1855, Page 136
Source: Original Register at LRO
John Henry Traynor and Elizabeth (Hope) McCaslin cause even more mystery than what you thought when you found their 1907 marriage!
Although they didn't marry until 1907, she is listed as Elizabeth Trainor in 1900 Census and both of them state that they have been married for 25 years.
I began looking again and found their 1st marriage so many years before + believe me, that was a huge surprise!
Name John H. Traynor
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 21 Oct 1874
Event Place Fall River, Bristol, Massachusetts, United States
Age 28
Birth Year (Estimated) 1846
Father's Name Bernard
Mother's Name Mary
Spouse's Name Elizabeth Hope Mccoslin
Spouse's Age 30
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1844
Spouse's Father's Name Daniel [her stepfather, Daniel Hannagan / Hannigan]
Spouse's Mother's Name Martha [nee Taylor]
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Name John H Traynor, FIRST MARRIAGE
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 15 Jun 1907
Event Place Fall River, Bristol, Massachusetts, United States
Age 58
Birth Date 1849
Birthplace , , England
Father's Name Bernard Traynor
Mother's Name Mary Hoey
Spouse's Name Elizabeth Hope Mccaslin, SECOND MARRIAGE / Widowed
Spouse's Age 68
Spouse's Birth Date 1839
Spouse's Birthplace , , England
Spouse's Father's Name Richard [NOT correct]
Spouse's Mother's Name Martha Entwistle [thought maybe she remarried after Daniel but cannot find anything]
Elizabeth's parents were Charles Hope and Martha Taylor which I found on her sister Mary's death record in Fall River, Bristol, Massachusetts =
Massachusetts Deaths
Name Mary Hope Grimshaw
Event Type Death
Event Date 30 Jul 1902
Event Place Fall River, Massachusetts
Residence Place Fall River, Massachusetts
Address 239 Middle
Gender Female
Age 66
Marital Status Married
Occupation Housekeeper
Birthplace England
Birth Year (Estimated) 1836
Burial Place Fall River
Father's Name Charles
Father's Birthplace England
Mother's Name Martha Taylor
Mother's Birthplace England
Spouse's Name William Grimshaw
Although I was able to find Mary's baptism, I couldn't find anything for Elizabeth =
Baptism: 22 Nov 1835 Cathedral, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Mary Hope - Daughter of Charles Hope & Martha
Abode: Manch.
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: H. Fielding
Register: Baptisms 1835 - 1836, Page 668, Entry 5341
Source: LDS Film 2357018
Here's Mary Hope's marriage record showing that this was her 3rd marriage =
Name William Grimshaw
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 8 Oct 1889
Event Place Fall River, Bristol, Massachusetts, United States
Age 33
Marital Status HIS SECOND MARRIAGE
Birth Year (Estimated) 1856
Birthplace Norton, Bristol, Massachusetts, United States
Father's Name Thomas
Mother's Name Jane
Spouse's Name Mary Hope Connelly
Spouse's Age 53
Spouse's Marital Status HER THIRD MARRIAGE
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1836
Spouse's Birthplace England, United Kingdom
Spouse's Father's Name Charles
Spouse's Mother's Name Martha
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I have found the marriage of Elizabeth Hope to Joseph McCaslin April 15, 1860 in Cathedral, Manchester and found them in the 1861 Census in Hulme, Lancashire with their son Joseph McCaslin born 1861 but cannot locate young John after that.
Joseph McCaslin and Emma Hardacre were married 1876 and had 11 children although their eldest Joseph was born abt 1874, a couple of years before their marriage.
Emma died Oct 26, 1915 and Joseph was deceased by 1911 at the latest.
^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^
MORE DETAILS on Mary Hope and her 2 husbands before her marriage in Fall River.
It turns out that Mary Hope 1st married William Tootall in 1856 and had 2 children: Amelia and Robert.
She then married Bernard Conlan [not Connelly] in 1869 and one of the witnesses was her sister Elizabeth McCaslin.
Turns out that Martha and Daniel Flannigan [not Hannagan / Hannigan after all] emigrated to Fall River, MA as well and died there.
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Wow! Great research! Very interesting, will take some time to get my head around it all, need to get it back into research.
Thanks so much, very much appreciated.
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You're very welcome!
I meant that John McCaslin [not Joseph], son of Joseph and Elizabeth Hope couldn't be found with his father and stepmother on any later Census documents.
Elizabeth Hope's mother, Martha [nee Taylor] had 2 sons after she married Daniel Flannigan [of course, his surname causes all sorts of problems because there are so many variation!!] but I cannot find either of them after the 1861 Census -- you would think that if alive, they would have emigrated with their parents =
John William born 1846 Chorley, Lancashire
Robert James born 1848 Chorley, Lancashire