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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: sonofedgar on Thursday 03 January 13 19:59 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help? I'm trying to find information about Robert Edgar and Margaret McKinley McKean (believed to be from Scotland, possibly Dumfriesshire ??), born around 1860. Robert Edgar worked in Cuba (for the Cuba Submarine Telegraph Company?) and their son, Allan Wedderlie Edgar, my grandfather, was born there in 1889, as well as their daughter, Margaret W Edgar in 1883. So far I can find no trace of them in the UK..
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1901 Rg2/3459 folio 84 page 3 Bootle cum Linacre Liverpool
26 Pembroke Road
Joseph Birnie/Birnis age 45 widow builder contractor Bootle
James son age 18 apprentice joiner Bootle
Edgar W son age 16 apprentice Joiner Bootle
Marion G dau age 15 Bootle
Frank son age 9 Bootle
Inez F dau age 5 Bootle
Margaret W Edgar niece age 18 Living on own means Cuba british Subject
Allan W Edgar nephew age 11 Cuba
Sophia Mundell visitor age 15 Scotland
Mary Lawson servant age 22
Janet Lawson age 21
Pam
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Inez Flora Burnie June quarter 1895 June West Derby Lancashire
Joseph Burnie married Marion McKean married June quarter 1881 West derby Lancashire
Pam
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Hi,
Margaret Mckinlay Mckean born 27/06/1852, Annan, Dumfries
Parents Hugh Mckean & Margaret Wilson
Sharon
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1891 Rg12/2971 folio 61 page 56 Bootle Lancaashire
54 Kings Road
Joseph Birnie transcribed Barns age 35 Builder Contractor Scotland
Marion wife age 33 Scotland
James son age 8 Bootle
Edgar W son age 6 Bootle
Marrion dau age 5 Bootle
Jessie B dau age 3 Bootle
Hugh Edgar nephew age 12 Scotland
Agnes McKean transcribed McBean sister in law single age 32 house keeper Scotland
Hugh McKean transcribed McBean boarder age 47 G C Clerk Scotland
Pam
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1861 Registration No 812
Annan Dumfriesshire
address G & S W Railway Dent house
Hugh McKean age 41 Railway Superintendant St Quiner Ayrshire
Margaret age 42 Symington Ayrshire
Hugh age 17 son Lochwinnoch Renfrewshire Coal agent
James age 15 son Railway Clerk Lochwinnoch
John age 13 son Kelunnning Ayrshire
Mary age 11 dau
Margaret age 9 dau
Duncan age 7 son
Marion age 3 dau
Agness age 2 dau
William age 10 months son
Pam
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1871
Registration No 812/1
Annan Dumfriesshire
Hugh McKean age 50 St Quentin Ayrshire Railway Super
James son age 25 Lodwich? Dumfriesshire Railway Lab
Duncan son age 17 Grocer Annan
Maria? du age 13 Anna
Agnes dau age 12 Annan
William son age 10 Annan
Marion Gerson age 40 St Quintin servant
Pam
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Hi sonofedgar
Welcome to Rootschat :)
You have lots of info above to help. One other record that would greatly help you now to confirm further would be Robert and Margaret's marriage cert. I think they married in Dumfriesshire in 1878. Good news on two fronts. Firstly, Scottish marriage certs include more info, including mothers' full names for bride and groom and secondly, for this year, you can download the cert direct from the official pay to view site www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Monica :)
Added: From general searches (I haven't viewed any entries), I think Margaret McKean is showing as Maggie McKean on the marriage index. SP is very specific on spellings.
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Pam mentioned earlier a possible first born son for Robert and Margaret, Hugh Edgar. He showed on that 1891 entry with the Birnie family. There is a Hugh McKean Edgar showing as born in Lanarkshire in 1879 that might be worth checking online on SP.
From other people's research, Hugh went on to marry a Linda Jeffrey in Monifieth, Angus in 1905. As with the marriage of Robert and Margaret, you can download from SP. Will give you further information on parents (as to whether they were alive or deceased by then). Hugh's death is showing as having taken place in West Derby about 1948.
Monica
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John age 13 son Kelunnning Ayrshire
On the 1861 Census Pam found Kelunnning, Ayrshire is likely to have been a mistranscription of Kilwinning.
Best wishes
Rockford
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The Hugh M Edgar born 1879 Glasgow Lanarkshire is a Marine Engineer married.
Will PM you
Cannot Pm you your box is full!!
Pam
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Cannot Pm you your box is full!!
Hi Pam
The error message you are getting in trying to PM sonofedgar is simply to due to the fact the personal messages service has not yet been activated because sonofedgar has only made a first posting (you need 2/3 posts on the main boards before PMs are available to a new member).
Monica :)
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Firstly, so many thanks to each of you for your replies so far! :) What a great site this is to come upon!! I'm excited to break through my impasse, by the information you have turned up, and keen to follow your leads.. but I'm also realizing how much of a beginner I am and that there must be much to learn about searching techniques and this whole field of uncovering one's lineage!
In brief so far, I joined Ancestry.co.uk about a year ago, had a short, intense period of searching, then didn't touch it until now as I was away working abroad. I've progressed reasonably well on three fronts: Anderson (Lancashire, out of Buckinghamshire), Whittall (Shropshire/Welsh border), and Monks (Warrington, Cheshire), but the Edgar-McKean searches brought nothing (even the free searches on ScotlandsPeople.. clearly I need to advance!
So it's great to know that there are great, experienced and friendly people out there waiting to help.. thanks again!
;D
Roy
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.. Regarding PMs, what constitute qualifying posts.. is it just three posts to any (or the same) topic,
does one need to start three threads, does the Beginners board count..??
???
Roy
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Hi Roy
New members activate their PM service after three posts anywhere on the boards (except for the 'Totally off Topic' board which has not post counting).
You are there now. You can see the number of posts you have at any time under your username on the l/h side. To send someone a PM, just click on the small 'letter' image button also on the l/h side under their usernames. This is a quick way and will take you straight there. Works very much like all message services with an in/outbox etc. Personal details (living people, personal emails etc.) should be kept off the main open boards to protect privacy and identities.
You can also access your messages via the 'My Messages' button in the top brown banner.
Welcome on board and enjoy your time here on RC. It is a great community :)
Monica
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My great grandfather, Robert Edgar (b. 1852) married Maggie Mckean (Margaret McKinlay McKean, b. 27/06/1852, Annan -haven't found record yet..) at Greenknowe Cottage, Annan on 15/04/1878.
Robert Edgar's parents were John Edgar and Jane Heughan (married in Annan, 20/12/1843), but I can't yet trace Robert Edgar's birth (he was a boarder in glasgow in 1871 -a telegraph operator- 'born in Annan'), John Edgar his father (a railway porter in 1878), or his mother, Jane (deceased by 1878), though there was a Jane Heughan (b. 1801?) on the 1841 census -surely too old to be his mother?
At some point (abt 1881/1882?) Robert Edgar went to work as a Superintendent at the Cuba Submarine Telegraph Company in Cienfuegos, Cuba where my grandfather, Allan Wedderlie Edgar was born in 1889.
Maggie McKean's parents were Hugh McKean and Margaret Wilson (1851 census shows them living at Greenknowe); Hugh McKean was a Railway Superintenent b. abt 1819 in St Quiner / St Brask (??), Ayrshire, and Margaret Wilson was also b. abt 1819 in Symington -could she be the daughter of Robert Wilson and Catherine Tennent of Ponfeigh, baptised on 26/09/1819..?
I'm planning a trip (from Devon) to Annan in the spring!! ??? :) ;D
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NB.. this is a continuation / development of my earlier topic: Robert EDGAR / Margaret McKinley MCKEAN.. :)
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No need to start a new thread for the same subject so I've merged your two topics :)
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Hi,
Family search has this record.
Robert Edgar born 05.07.1849 and baptised on 12.08.1849, Annan, Dumfries
Parents John Edgar and Jane Houghan.
SP also has the record.
Sharon
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Hi Roy
I came across this site which might help you when tracing Edgars with the Annan connection or in general http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~scottish/Edgar.html Family No.7 listed seems to be Robert’s from what you have so far. Fits well with birth year Sharon mentioned.
I thought this might be the family in 1851. From the mention of a step daughter in law (the term ‘in law’ is sometimes used differently then), it may be that Jane mother was previously married? In Scotland, Jean and Jane are interchangeable, see www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Jane.html
John Edgar 30, tile moulder, b. Mouswald, Dumfries
Jean Edgar 35
James Edgar 3
Robert Edgar 1
Jean Cron 15, Step Daughter-in-law, dressmaker
Address: Watchhill, Annan
From what has been found, marriage date here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTL5-K6G
From that Edgar link, the other sons show here:
James https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYW1-PVC
John https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT1K-7XF
Monica
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Jane Cron...Jane Coon...all likely in the translation and transcript...the original image on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk would help as always.
From 1871:
John Edgar 52, railway porter b. Torthorwald, Dumfries
Jane Coon 35, housekeeper b. Annan... thinking this is step-daughter?
John Edgar 16, son b. Annan
Address: 2 Frankfield, Dumfries
Can't easily see them in 1861 on the transcript. Maybe SP will show them. Also, Jane Haughton's death is proving illusive - wondering whether she may have died between 1853-4 and the start of official registration from 1855 :-\
Monica
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Many thanks for your input, Monica.. and Sharon, and Pam.. I'm slowly gathering evidence ??? :)
I have Robert Edgar's birth on 05.07.1849 from SP now (took a while to show up, though.. is it me?!), but I'm puzzled by date discrepancies:
In the 1871 census he's recorded as a boarder (and telegraph operator.. which seems to accord with his work in Cuba with the Cuba Submarine Telegraph Company) at 4 West Street, Bridgetown, Glasgow, aged 19 (i.e. born abt 1852). At his marriage to Maggie McKean in Annan on 15.04.1878 he's recorded as aged 26, again indicating birth abt 1852. Yet in the 1851 census he's there aged 1. In the 1861 census, however, the same family are at 10, High Street, Troqueer, Kirkudbrightshire (including Jane Crone, stepdaughter!) and Robert is recorded as 9 (i.e. birth abt 1852 again).. Is this common??
Robert Edgar's father, John, could well be he born 24.04.1820 at (Buckerhole?) Mouswald to James Edgar and Jean Dickson.. and it's tempting to continue to 'James, son to Joseph Edgar and Ann Burnet in Woodside (Mouswald) b. 08.03.1786, bapt. 09 of the same.'
But his mother, Jane Heughan/Houghan, recorded as Jean Edgar in the 1851 census, but missing in 1861, remains something of a mystery. In the 1841 census for Annan there's a Jane Heughan aged 40 at 'Closehead' (?), recorded as born in England ('E'?) as well as a Jane Heughan aged 90 who doesn't show up on the search but is the following entry in the record.. is this right?
Also, I'm not having much luck with death or burial records so far.. how good are these..?
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.. Actually, I think the second Jane Heughan I mentioned above is, in fact, a Jane Hughan, aged 90 :)
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Just some general notes to keep in mind:
Ages overall can vary by a few years. Unlike today when birth details are important and easily confirmed, less relevant in those days. One other scenario might also be that the Robert born in the summer of 1849 died after the 1851 census and a next baby born c. 1852 was called again Robert (quite normal in those times to re-use important family first names). Hard to be more specific than that really in the absense of proof.
However, from the 1861 census, all of the sons' ages seem out by a year or two. These were the birth years we had for them: James 1847; Robert 1849; John 1853. From the census for 1861:
John Edgar 42, grocer's porter
James Edgar 13
Robert Edgar 9
John Edgar 6
Jane Crone 25
Address: 10 High Street, Troqueer
This period that you are looking at for Robert's birth is before the start of official registration in Scotland from 1855. Recording of events in the Old Parish Registers can be patchy at the best of times, so, you are fortunate to have found out as much detail as you have so far for these years from the OPRs. Many families' births etc either went unrecorded, recorded elsewhere as they were not of the established Church of Scotland, or registers have been lost or destroyed over the years.
Monica
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As I mentioned earlier, couldn't easily see the death of wife Jane post 1855 and the start of official registration. Likely she died following birth of last son showing, John, and the beginning of 1855?
Regarding confirming John Edgar Snr.'s parents and working back, have you tried searching for his death on SP. Parents' details are included on Scottish death certs, if known to the informant.
On a different topic, I think this might be Jane Cron/e's entry: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT1V-TZN Can't see other children other than Jane's entry nor a marriage (but there may well have been both!).
Monica
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A further 1841 census entry to keep in mind:
Robert Houghan 70
Mary Houghan 65
Jane Houghan 20
Jane Crane 7
Address: Hawgell, Annan
The 1841 census is the most limited in terms of info. No relationships are normally included within the household and everyone aged 15 and over was supposed to show with their age rounded down to the nearest 5 years.
Monica
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Amazing, after all the searching I have done to find another relative of Robert Edgar, he was my G.Grandfather, he died in the Liverpool area on 6th. Dec. 1916 after many years travelling between Cuba and the U.K. which can be tracked via the Ellis island website, given that the Cuban, Spanish war of independance was taking place around 1898 - 1902 probably explains why the two younger children were returned to the U.K. I cannot as yet find any reference to the death of Margaret edgar (nee McKean) but it appears to have occurred around 1898- 1903
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Sorry, I forgot to mention that Robert Edgar's death certificate was stated as :age 65 died of Acute angina and syncoptic Cardiae (heart attack) and was witnessed by his daughter (my G.mother) I have his old sea chest complete with initials and shipping stickers still on the sides to and from Cienfuegos Cuba plus a nice photograph of him in a tropical cotton suit probably taken at around 55 - 60+ years of age in Cuba
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Hello Saltwater! Yes, amazing and wonderful to read your posts!!
I tried to PM you straight away, but have just realised that you can't receive PMs until you've posted 3 times.. so you probably won't get it.
Reading back through this thread I can also see that there are still leads and information I need to pursue.. this site is fantastic :) And I would love to hear more from you.. your photo would be wonderful to see, and that old sea chest must be a real treasure!
I wonder what relation we are to eachother through sharing the same great grandparent, in terminology, I mean :) If you post again it should allow us to PM..
Roy
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.. I'd say we're second cousins! 8)
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Excellent site, because of our family's unusual history in Cuba I have been struggling for a couple of years trying to make the connection between R.Edgar and his wife and Cuba, they must have been truly pioneers in the telegraphy industry, by my reckoning they crossed the Atlantic at least 8 times between 1892 and 1916, do you have any information regarding the death of Roberts wife Margaret?
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Hello Sonofedgar, We have put together a tree for Robert Edgar, his son Allan Wedderlie Edgar and his children. Please contact us if you're interested in an exchange of ideas.
James Edgar
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Hello James! Great to read your post.. of course I'd love to make contact! I'm a little busy elsewhere and so haven't been spending any time on research just lately, but luckily I was alerted to your post. You need to make a couple more posts in order to activate the PersonalMessage option (see beginning of this topic..), then we could exchange personal emails if you like.
Looking forward to further contact. Roy
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Hi James
Welcome to Rootschat :)
Post another couple of times here on the main boards and then your Personal Message service will be activated. This will let you exchange personal emails via the PM service if appropriate.
Monica
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Hi Roy & Monica,
Thanks for the advice.
James
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Roy, Our main interest is Edgars, and my wife Jodie (known as Mrs. Poirot, the world-famous detective) has teased out many trees with her research. We have also done DNA tests (115 or so) among Edgars worldwide, and we find four distinct Haplotypes. Interestingly, the Dumfriesshire group is predominantly I2b1, with a scattering of R1bs. I'm in I1, and the fourth group is E1b.
Another interesting connection is between the Edgars and Dunbars, not eally surprising when one considers the history, written and oral -- apparently Cospatrick II was 3rd Earl of Dunbar, and he sired the first R1b Edgar, from whom the Wedderlie Edgars ensue!
So, Roy, is it safe to assume you are descended from one of Allan Wedderlie's sisters?
James
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No, I'm Allan Wedderlie's grandson.. :)
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Hi James,
I too am related to Robert edgar, I have recently made contact with sonofedgar and would like to have a PM of your family tree regarding R.Edgar, are you directly related?