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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: loubags on Thursday 03 January 13 09:10 GMT (UK)

Title: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: loubags on Thursday 03 January 13 09:10 GMT (UK)
Hi, is anyone able to date the couple in the wedding photograph, which was taken outside Kedleston Hall in Derby? Hopefully by narrowing down the date I might be able to identify who they are!

Many thanks, Lou
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 03 January 13 12:15 GMT (UK)
Hi Lou...What a lovely photo and that dress :o The daters will want to see the whole of the photo and the back if you have the original.
Carol
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 03 January 13 14:11 GMT (UK)
Hi  :)

It is a lovely photo which reminds me of one of the late 19th century royal weddings. I've just looked it up. It was  the future George V and Queen Mary in 1893. Mary wore a dress with sprays of flowers/greenery - so I'll go with circa that date but it could be later into turn of century  :-\

brevitas

PS - would love to see the whole photo without downloading it like in the olden days  :'(
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 03 January 13 14:15 GMT (UK)
I'll second that  on the photo download :-\
Carol
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: katiespitfire on Thursday 03 January 13 14:16 GMT (UK)
I'd say 1890s, looking at her dress. What was their connection to Kedleston? It's a lovely house.
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: jim1 on Thursday 03 January 13 14:35 GMT (UK)
This one's a bit more manageable.
Agree probably 1890's - early 1900's but we need to see what type of photo it is.

jim
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: lazydaisy on Thursday 03 January 13 14:36 GMT (UK)
Kedleston Hall is/was the ancestral home of the Curzon family.

Would this be a wedding of one of the Curzon family? bride or groom?

Dont know if in those days Kedlestone Hall was licensed as a venue for weddings.

Just a thought - how do you know it's Kedleston Hall

Regards

Diane
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: janan on Thursday 03 January 13 14:42 GMT (UK)
As loubags isn't online thought I'd post link to the other thread on the Derbyshire Board

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,629418.0.html

Jan ;)
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: Patricia jackson on Thursday 03 January 13 15:08 GMT (UK)
My guess would be Edwardian.
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: SmallTownGirl on Thursday 03 January 13 15:53 GMT (UK)
Dont know if in those days Kedlestone Hall was licensed as a venue for weddings.


There's a church/chapel right next to the Hall (i.e. in the grounds), so my thought was that if we could date the photo, then the first place to start looking would be the marriage register for that church/chapel.

STG
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: chinakay on Thursday 03 January 13 16:57 GMT (UK)
The meeting of the bodice and the skirt isn't truly 1890s and isn't truly Edwardian either...elements of both but not really definitive either way. If this bride were concerned about being on the cutting edge of fashion, and believe me, she would be, by about 1904 or 1905ish she'd be showing a full pouter-pigeon blouse front I'm pretty sure :)

What a fabulous dress...and timeless. This dress wouldn't have looked out of place almost a century later.

My guess would be very early 1900s, but we need to see the mount and any printing on the back, as mentioned.

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: IgorStrav on Thursday 03 January 13 18:00 GMT (UK)
Gosh, that's a train and a half  :D

And I bet she was glad to take that corset off at the end of the day.  Doubtless she was as keen as modern day brides to have the best possible figure - and she will have had a really good corset to assist any dieting!
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: chinakay on Thursday 03 January 13 18:29 GMT (UK)
She'd have been in that corset all day, every day :P ...The price of looking good :P :P :P
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: IgorStrav on Thursday 03 January 13 18:34 GMT (UK)
She'd have been in that corset all day, every day :P ...The price of looking good :P :P :P

Not all night though.  It must have been a huge relief to take the b----y thing off.
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 03 January 13 19:05 GMT (UK)
Sorry Guys,  but I don't see it as a tight corset - well not as tight as some of the ones that I've previously seen. She seems quite relaxed in her dress  :)

Thanks to Jim for making the whole photo viewable in one look  ;D
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: loubags on Thursday 03 January 13 20:04 GMT (UK)
Thank you everyone, you've been really helpful and sorry about the download - many thanks Jim! 

I think you might have helped solve the mystery. In answer to a couple of queries, the photograph is actually (unfortunately) stuck to the back of a piece of cardboard - it's extremely thin though and doesn't feel like a 'proper' photograph. The Kedleston link is through my great grandfather who was a blacksmith at Kedleston in the late 1800s / early 1900s. The family story is that all the staff were given copies of the photo.

I found the parish records for Kedleston around 1890. There are three possibilities for Lord Curzon's daughters' marriages - Geraldine (1901), Margaret (1899) but I believe the photo is of Eveline Mary Curzon, who married Sir James Percy Miller, 2nd Baronet Manderston, in the chapel in the grounds that STG mentioned in 1893. I found a photo of the groom online and they look similar and also found a newspaper archive that describes the dress almost exactly. Apparently she was very popular in the village which may explain why the staff were given copies? I'm going to get in touch with the Kedleston archivist to see if any of this fits. If it's not her I'll look into the other daughters.

So many thanks to you all once again for replying and pointing me in the right direction. You've been great  :)
Lou
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: PrueM on Thursday 03 January 13 20:40 GMT (UK)
I'm not convinced that it's the 2nd Baronet, looking at his pic online here: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7q8K0WYhKAc/T6DEIyPpESI/AAAAAAAATAE/PfkYARXKBbE/s640/ManderstonGuideP1_124.jpg  To me, they are dissimilar :/

I'm not convinced it's as early as 1893 either, as the photo type indicates a slightly later date - if 1893 I'd expect it to be an albumen print which this is not. 
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: chinakay on Thursday 03 January 13 20:41 GMT (UK)
the photograph is actually (unfortunately) stuck to the back of a piece of cardboard - it's extremely thin

That's how photos were made. Every one of them. The cardboard backing is deliberate and an integral part of the photo. Don't for heavens sake try to peel it off to see if there's anything written on the back, there won't be, but you will destroy the photo. That's how they were made.

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: chinakay on Thursday 03 January 13 20:49 GMT (UK)
Also, bodice is wrong for 1893 I think, sort of a hybrid, not very definitive for that date but 1901, on the other hand, would be more likely.

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 03 January 13 20:51 GMT (UK)
I'm not convinced that it's the 2nd Baronet, looking at his pic online here: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7q8K0WYhKAc/T6DEIyPpESI/AAAAAAAATAE/PfkYARXKBbE/s640/ManderstonGuideP1_124.jpg  To me, they are dissimilar :/



Just putting these up for comparison - hope it doesn't breach Copyright:

Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 03 January 13 21:03 GMT (UK)
Just quoting this - not sure if it matches:

From ~

The Sheffield and Rotherham Independent - Friday Jan 20, 1893


Fashionable Wedding -

'....The charming and accomplished bride wore a magnificent wedding gown of the richest ivory satin and full court train of silk broacade, coming from a bow between the shoulders and slashed sleeves of the same materials, the neck and wrists being trimmed with old family Irish point lace. The handsome veil was also of old Irish lace, over a tiara of real orange blooms. Her ornaments were a pearl necklace and a pearl and diamond comb, the gifts of the bridegroom, and a bouquet of white roses and lilies of the valley, intermixed with ferns and bound with streamers en suite....'

Note that this is from my local library  not from a subscription site

Added - realised that I'd not made it clear that this was from a report of the wedding between Eveline Curzon and James Miller, 1893.
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: lazydaisy on Thursday 03 January 13 21:28 GMT (UK)
The Curzons are very distant relations of our family. So distant the the 'older' modern generation were not aware of the connection. I guess we are the poor relations ;D

I have been looking on the internet to see if I could find a picture of Geraline Curzon who married a chap called Townsend in 1901 - cant find anything. I believe they married at Kedleston Hall

I did wonder if it was James Miller / Eveline Curzon but having looked at the photos side by side I think they are not the same person.

Diane
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: chinakay on Friday 04 January 13 02:48 GMT (UK)
Just quoting this - not sure if it matches:

From ~

The Sheffield and Rotherham Independent - Friday Jan 20, 1893


Fashionable Wedding -

'....The charming and accomplished bride wore a magnificent wedding gown of the richest ivory satin and full court train of silk broacade, coming from a bow between the shoulders and slashed sleeves of the same materials, the neck and wrists being trimmed with old family Irish point lace. The handsome veil was also of old Irish lace, over a tiara of real orange blooms. Her ornaments were a pearl necklace and a pearl and diamond comb, the gifts of the bridegroom, and a bouquet of white roses and lilies of the valley, intermixed with ferns and bound with streamers en suite....'

Note that this is from my local library  not from a subscription site

Added - realised that I'd not made it clear that this was from a report of the wedding between Eveline Curzon and James Miller, 1893.

What a find, eh :)

Not sure it's the same wedding...a lot of similarities, but I'm not seeing slashed sleeves and not seeing roses in the bouquet. Some other elements, such as lace, pearls etc are going to be found at just about any wedding.

Still, not sure :P
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: loubags on Friday 04 January 13 12:23 GMT (UK)
I've found a few newspaper articles for the wedding, each a little different (one mentions ferns in the bouquet and lillies but no roses!) but essentially the same. I have also found the following articles for the other sisters but sadly no pics of the grooms for comparison:

GERALINE - [the dress] a lovely diesis of white crepe, the swathed bodice draped with beautiful old Carickmacross lace, which fell over the front of the skirt in graceful folds. The long court train falling from the shoulders was entirely composed of the same priceless lace, over softest chiffon. A lace veil (originally worn by the bride's mother) was arranged over high coronet of orange blossoms. Her ornaments consisted of a  pearl necklace and diamond pendant. She carried a beautiful bouquet of white roses and stephanotis.

MARAGARET - She wore a beautiful dress of rich, ivory duchesse satin, the skirt and corsage being handsomely embroidered with fine silver paulettes and diamonds in Louis XV bows. The [corsage?] had a yoke of tucked chiffon trimmed with lace and orange blossoms, while the collar and long transparent sleeves, as well as the veil, were of beautiful old Carrickmacross lace. The long Court train falling from the shoulders was draped on the left side with white chiffon, finishing off with true lover's knot and a spray of orange blossoms. Her ornaments consisted of a diamond pendant and a pearl and diamond brooch. She carried a goodyear bouquet from the bridegroom, composed of roses, lilies of the valley, stephanotes, tuberoses, etc.
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: Gadget on Friday 04 January 13 13:20 GMT (UK)
My money's on Margaret (1899)then


Quote
The [corsage?] had a yoke of tucked chiffon trimmed with lace and orange blossoms, while the collar and long transparent sleeves,  as well as the veil, were of beautiful old Carrickmacross lace.  ....She carried a goodyear bouquet from the bridegroom, composed of roses, lilies of the valley, stephanotes, tuberoses, etc.
   :)
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: Gadget on Friday 04 January 13 14:54 GMT (UK)
Been doing some searches on Margaret and, in addition to more descriptions of the dress and lots of Curzon trees, I've found this:

http://www.sensationpress.com/thewomanathome_may1899.htm

It appears to have a photo of the wedding!

Quote
Brides and Bridegrooms (Illustrations: Matthew White Ridley, Rosamond Cornelia Gwladys Guest, Margaret Georgina Curzon (married Hardress John Waller),

Has anyone got a copy  ::)
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: chinakay on Friday 04 January 13 15:23 GMT (UK)
Both gowns and accompaniments seem to be very similar...about all I can get out of the descriptions would be the bouquets. I can see stephanotis and lily of the valley, but can't see any roses. So like brevitas, my money's on Margaret :)
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: Gadget on Friday 04 January 13 15:32 GMT (UK)
This was what persuaded me, China:

Another description from The Pall Mall Gazette, Jan 26 1899

The Hon Margaret Georgina Curzon....The bride .... wore a very handsome gown of ivory-white satin, made with Court train, and embroidered in a Louis XV bow design, carried out in fine silver paillettes and diamonds. The bodice was arranged with a yoke of tucked white chiffon and a pretty trimming of orange blossom, while the collar and the long transparent sleeves were of lovely old Carrickmacross lace, and she wore a coronet of orange blossom, a diamond pendant... and a pearl and diamond brooch....She carried a very lovely bouquet of white roses, stephanotis, organge blossom and lilies of the valley...

Neither of the other two  mentioned  the design on the dress or the transparent/lace sleeves.
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: chinakay on Friday 04 January 13 15:34 GMT (UK)
Oh yes, the orange blossoms on the dress. Kind of unusual.

So we have three of these wedding dresses? Wonder what they would have cost :P
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: loubags on Thursday 23 September 21 19:03 BST (UK)
Hello!  :) i know this is a really old thread but I've just got back into the family tree properly again and have finally solved the mystery of the married couple once and for all! It's the Hon. Margaret Georgina Curzon, also known as Daisy, at her marriage to Hardress John Waller on January 26th 1899.

Parts of the dress have actually survived and have been put on the John Bright Collection website.  If you're interested you can see it here, along with a copy of the photograph (click on additional photos at the bottom) https://www.thejohnbrightcollection.co.uk/costume/wedding-dress-02/

I really appreciated the help at the time and kudos to brevitas for getting it spot on!

thank you :)
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: chinakay on Saturday 02 October 21 19:10 BST (UK)
Ta-daaah  ;D
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 02 October 21 19:54 BST (UK)
Goodness. I forgot about all this.

Glad I got it 'spot on'

 ;)
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: TSommerlind on Friday 03 March 23 08:41 GMT (UK)
Hello Lou,
I am researching the Kedleston household bc of their governess and stumbled over this old post.

Just in case you did not find that yet yourself:  you wondered why the staff was given the photo.
According to the local newspaper article of the wedding mentioning guests and gifts - the staff also gave to the bride. Maybe the photograph was their thankyou, then?

Just a thought,

Tilly
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: Gadget on Friday 03 March 23 09:18 GMT (UK)
Hi Tilly and welcome to Rootschat  :)

Lou hasn't been on since 2012.

* sorry, I misread the dates - she joined in 2012. She was on here in January so there's a good chance of a reply

Gadget 
Title: Re: a date for the wedding couple pls
Post by: loubags on Friday 03 March 23 23:24 GMT (UK)
Thank you Tilly, I hadn't seen that before. But it would make sense as to why the photo was given out as my ancestor was a blacksmith on the estate. He might have contributed as I was told the staff were treated well.

Good luck in your research at Kedleston. When my family visited the National Trust (although a few years ago now) they said they didn't have staff records, so leads like this are always really helpful :)

I also posted the photo on another thread and was contacted by 'Saxonx' on Roots Chat. Not sure if he is still active on here but he said his Gt Grandfather (Andrew Brooks) was Butler at Kedleston Hall sometime before and up to 1901. Andrew used to travel to the Curzons home in Kent where he met and married a servant, Emily Kate Barton. Not sure if there is any more info since then but hopefully might be of use