RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: DavidJP on Sunday 30 December 12 21:50 GMT (UK)
-
Hi all,
My first post on the Australian board, so hope i get this right!
I'm trying to find info on my late maternal grandmother's cousin Frank Burgess Bauer 1917 - 1942.
He was born in london to Francis (Frank) Xavier Bauer & Margaret Burgess in 1917 & until recently, i.e a couple of months ago this was all i knew about him.
I quite by chance came across a record of a will for him on anc*stry, which led me to unlock much more of his story, which had not been known to the family.
At some point he emigrated to Australia, i don't know when as i haven't been able to find anything but i suspect it was sometime between 1935 & 1942. Could sks find an emigration record for him please.
Googling him i was shocked to dicover the next part of his story, i don't shock easily but this shook me.
He joined the Australian Army (no VX18563) enlisting at Caulfield, his location at this time given as Malvern, i now know these to be suburbs of Melbourne. At time of death he was with 2/22 Australian Infantry Division with the Rank of Staff Sergeant. The bit that shook/upset me was that he was one of those killed in the Tol Plantation Massacre on Papua New Guinea on 4th Feb 1942. Was killed by the Japanese who shot &/or bayonetted him as he was one of those who did not surrender.
Would it be possible for sks to help with getting his papers from the Australian National Archives as they have as yet as far as i can ascertain yet to be digitised. They have never been accessed as far as i can tell, which makes sense as he never married, his nok was his mother at enlistment and the will record.
What his poor mother must have gone through i cannot think, as she lost her husband as a result of injuries sustained in WW1 & then loses her only child in the next.
Sorry if this rambles a bit, but it is important to me, since his story has lain forgotten in the mists of time for too long & I wish make too make sure that his story is told & never forgotten.
Kind regards in advance
David
-
Hi David,
There appears to be 2 pages "opened" and available online to see in the National Archives Australia on some of his military. The other military record can be requested online.
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/index.aspx
I'l see if anything else can be found :)
-
Hi,
Previous thread,
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,617871.msg4666532.html#msg4666532
Leanne
-
A little bit more.
http://www.awm.gov.au/research/people/roll_of_honour/person.asp?p=527509
-
Hi Giblet & Leanne,
Many thanks for you replies.
Giblet, just tried your first link & did search but it says 'Access Status: Not Yet Examined', am i missing something re the two pages available or is it just me. (Probably me, knowing me! ;D)
Thanks for the 2nd link, a little extra info there, that i didn't know.
Leanne, thanks for those links, i'll take a closer look at those later.
Kind regards
David
-
PM sent.
Im not good with instructions so here goes ;D
The record that says 'Access Status: Not Yet Examined' if you look on the top right hand side it says "request a copy" Click on that and you can follow the prompts from there.
The second record that has 2 pages i can email to you if you like.
-
You may have already seen this.
BAUER, Frank Burgess, S/Sgt, VX18563. AIF 2/22 Battalion, Australian Infantry. 4 February 1942. Age 24. Son of Francis and Margaret Bauer of Malvern, Victoria. Panel 15.
http://www.jje.info/lostlives/exhib/rabaulmemorial/alpha/b.html#rm57
-
The easiest way to share records that have already been digitised is with the dhistory tool. Here is the link http://dhistory.org/archives/naa/ and you just put the barcode for the particular record in the box and click on "show". This is a permanent url and can be viewed by anyone.
Here is the two page record for Frank BAUER:
http://dhistory.org/archives/naa/items/9263027/
Debra :D
-
Thanks Debra :)
-
So are we looking at his mother emigrating as well? His name appears once on electoral rolls in 1943 with a Margaret BAUER at the same address as is given in the service record. She was also enrolled in 1937, and I can see her up until 1972 at the same address.
Debra :D
-
He signed up in Dec 1936 so arrival before then. Margaret was his mother and it appears she was here in Australia as well.
-
Hi all,
Giblet & Debra many thanks for your replies.
Giblet, Many thanks, now know how to order his records, just have to work out what A$25 & A$16.50 is in pounds sterling!
Debra, many thanks for that link! shows his mother had emigrated too! That i didn't know! Her address same as his.
Kind regards
David
-
There are lots of Bauer's.
I wonder if this could be his mother's burial :-\
SPRINGVALE BOTANICAL CEMETERY
BAUER MARGARET
THE CREMATED REMAINS HAVE BEEN COLLECTED
CREMATED 28/09/1977
http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php
-
Hi Debra,
Just missed your last post writing my previous reply. Yup. mother emigrated too, new info this as mentioned in my last post, so now looking for 2 emigration records. When you say 'also enrolled in 1937' do you mean the electoral rolls?
Did she die in 1972, as you say you see her there at the same address until then. This would explain why i haven't been able to find any record of her death in the UK.
Giblet, just caught your last reply, could well be, looks as if she never remarried. She would have been around 89/90 by then as born 1887/88. Also where is Springvale Botanical Cemetery & any idea what 'The cremated remains have been collected' means, possibly obvious i know, but as far as i know, there was no other family in Oz.
Kind regards
David
-
Hi David, thats exactly what i was thinking, it appears she had no other rellies here.. it could be the wrong burial yet but i have no way of telling. Hopefully someone else might be able to help clear that up. Shame there wasnt a age etc with the burial record.
Springvale is in Melbourne i think :-\
http://sbc.smct.org.au/
I still cant find the arrivals for them.
-
Hi Giblet,
The cemetery does indeed look to be in Melbourne as your link says near Melbourne, its probably the outskirts of Melbourne, which would make sense as they lived in Malvern, Melbourne.
Do you know if there are will indexes in Oz, as one was proved in London, UK. started in 1942 & finally proved in 1956. Just wondered whether there was one in Oz as well, as that's where he lived.
Kind Regards
David
-
Hi David,
The online wills in Victoria finish at 1925.
Will and Probate Records 1841 – 1925
Use our online index to Wills, Probate and Administration Records to locate and view digitised records. View records online
View our short guide to finding and viewing Will and Probate Records from 1841-1925
Will and Probate Records 1926 – 2007
Use the Supreme Court of Victoria – Probate Registers Online Index to search for the probate number to enable you to order the record for viewing within the PROV reading room.
Heres the link for the Victoria state archives.
http://prov.vic.gov.au/
Occasionally but not often i have seen wills in military records.
-
Heres the link for Trove the aussie online newspapers. They go up to the early 1950's but something might be found on the family.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper
-
Hi Giblet,
Many thanks for those links, i will take a look at them.
Kind regards
David
-
The Trove one with the newspapers is been painful today so you might have to try a few times or later.
-
Births Jun 1917
BAUER Frank B Burgess Pancras 1b/149
Marriages Jun 1915
BAUER Frank Marylebone 1a/1622
BURGESS Margaret Marylebone 1a/1622
I have looked at various resources but am unable to find either a departure from the UK or an arrival in Australia. If they travelled via the USA there is possibly no record of their arrival.
Frank enlisted in the CMF not the AIF in 1936. I note he was employed by a firm and one of the owner's daughters married into my into my family tree.
Australian Electoral Roll
1931, 1936
BAUER Margaret 89 York Street, Prahran HD
1943
BAUER Frank Burgess 5 Adelaide Street, Malvern Clerk
BAUER Margaret 5 Adelaide Street, Malvern HD
1949, 1954.,1963, 1977
BAUER Margaret 5 Adelaide Street, Malvern HD
This street is now in the suburb of Armadale.
Death
BAUER Margaret
Father Burgess Joseph Mother Unknown
At Hughesdale 86 years 1977 Reg#22156
Margaret was cremated at Springvale Botanical Cemetery on 28 Sep 1977 and her cremated remains were removed.
Margaret BAUER who died in 1977 is not listed in the Probate Registers Application Index.
You can purchase and download her death certificate $AUD20 from
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage
Information on certificates in Victoria
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
Cheers
Cando
-
The Trove one with the newspapers is been painful today so you might have to try a few times or later.
I searched TROVE early this am with nil result and it was OK but agree at times it can be painfully slow.
Cando
-
Would be interesting to see who the informant is on the death cert.
-
The Trove one with the newspapers is been painful today so you might have to try a few times or later.
I searched TROVE early this am with nil result and it was OK but agree at times it can be painfully slow.
Cando
I tried just before and it worked ok but earlier it wouldnt. Thought i had worn it out :o
-
TROVE is a popular website...perhaps being well used today :)
The Tol Cemetery 1 Aug 1945
http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/094652
Cando
-
Would be interesting to see who the informant is on the death cert.
If Margaret died in a nursing home or place of care there is every possibility the informant could well be the funeral director.
Cando
-
Hi Cando & Giblet,
Cando thanks very much for that info, that is absolutely fantastic! Also just caught your last post, thanks for link to photo. Also good point re informant on death cert.
Giblet, i agree it would interesting to see who the informant was on the death cert.
Many thanks to you both for you help, its greatly appreciated.
Kind regards
David
-
I just thought it would be interesting to see the informant as her ashes had been taken so i figured there must have been someone close to her :-\
-
Your right Giblet it would be interesting to know. I've had a bit of a think and the only close relatives she had left in the UK were her nephew Clifford, who would ahve been about 70 himself in 1977 & who acted as Margaret's attorney when son Frank's will was being proved. Also her niece (my late maternal grandmother), but i don't ever remember any mention of going to or having gone to Australia, or any mention of family in Australia at all, come to that!
Kind regards
David
-
Even tho it appears she never remarried she might have had a partner later in life maybe.
-
Cando can E/R's be checked by addresses or just names. Such as can the address of 5 Adelaide Street be put in and see who else lived there the same time Margaret did or do you need a name?
I dont know much about the E/R's.
-
Hi,
Springvale Cemetery is one of the biggest south of Melbourne. Most cremations of people who lived in the south side of Melbourne are done there.
You may get more information by contacting them. They have a "contact us" form on their website. Explain who you are and that you would like to know who picked up the ashes and who the funeral director was - as the funeral director will have more information about family and friends.
http://deceasedsearch.com/index.php?page=feedback
My sister is a Funeral consultant and she is often organising for ashes to be sent overseas to family, the funeral directors could have picked them up and sent them back to UK.
Cheers, Ted
-
Thanks for the insight Ted. I have never thought about ashes been sent overseas before.
-
Thanks very much tedscout, i hadn't thought about ashes being sent overseas! Regarding contacting the crematorium, i'll certainly be considering that.
Many thanks again.
Kind regards
David
-
I do think that this is a photo of your Frank - occupation and address are a match.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12472393
You can order a high quality image by using the "Buy" link on the top of the left menu bar.
Debra :D
-
Hi Debra,
That is fantastic! Never expected to find a photo of Frank. I do agree with you, that is him!
I can't thank you enough for that! Many Many thanks indeed!!
Kind regards
David
-
Hi all,
Just been doing a little rechecking re Margarets' emigration as since i last checked the date range has changed! Intially i had thought they were Mid thirties to 1942, I now know that they (Margaret & Frank) must have emigrated between 1923 & 1931. 1923 because Margaret is shown on the admin/proof of her husbands will in late November 1923 as still living in London & 1931 as she appears on Melbourne electoral registers.
Taking into account the possibility of them going via USA, i have found 3 possibles & they are as follows:
BAUER Margaret 1890 F 1928 Southampton USA New York
BAUERS Margaret 1889 F 1925 Southampton USA New York
BAWER N M 1887 F 1923 Liverpool Australia Melbourne
These records i found on FindMyPast, but having no membership i am unable to check full records, also the Bawer from Liverpool to Melbourne, i couldn't find on the Australian National Archives, passenger list search page.
Margaret was born abt 1887-1891. Her marriage record in 1915 shows her to be 27. Death record in 1977 states 86 at death. Nothing on Franks emigration though!
What do you think?
Kind regards
David
-
Here are two lots of information for you, David. I couldn't locate the 3rd.
The Margaret BAUERS 1925 was listed alone, had no occupation, and gave her last address as 14 Regents St, SW.
Age was given as 36. It states her last country of permanent residence was "foreign country" and her intended country of permanent residence USA. Ship was the Leviathon.
The Margaret BAUER 1928 was listed alone, had no occupation, and gave her last address as the Hotel Metropole, W.C.
Age was given as 38. It also states her last country of permanent residence was "foreign country" and her intended country of permanent residence USA. Ship was the America.
BUT.....I searched under some of the name variations I've found for my English Bauer family.....and I think I may have found them........
Mrs M BANER, housewife, aged 36, with last address given as 24 Oxford Rd, Liverpool, to disembark at Melbourne, departed Liverpool 28th Jan 1926 on board the Ceramic.
And with her Master F B BANER, aged 6.
I know Master F B Baner's age is wrong but ages were often wrong on passenger lists.
So many times my BAUERs were transcribed as BANER.
I'm sending you a PM.
Dee :)
-
Hi Dee,
Many thanks indeed for your reply!
I think we can definately cross the 1925 & 1928 possibles off the list as Margaret was definately English born (maiden surname Burgess.)
But, the Baner mistranscription does look like them despite their ages being possibly 2 years & 2 and a half years out respectively! Also my Bauer's have been mistranscribed as Baner before as well.
I will pm you back as soon as i've finished this!
You help is very much appreciated indeed!
Kind regards
David
ps I'm pretty sure we were in touch re our Francis Xavier Bauer's a while back, before i went offline unexpectedly! David
-
We were indeed, David. :)
You'll be pleased to know that with the help of Rootschatters and Trove Newspapers I solved my Bauer mysteries.
Dee :)
-
Hi Dee,
That's wonderful, have made some progress with mine, sadly not the Germany end tho! Have made fair progress with FX's grandkid's kids etc, if that makes sense! ??? ;D
Have looked at that, address for Margaret is given as 24, Oxford Road, Waterloo, Liverpool, i'm going to see if that was a hotel or something!
Many thanks.
Kind regards
David
-
Hi David,
I checked the Electoral Rolls for the years after 1926 up until 1954 for BANER.
You'll be pleased to hear there was no female BANER with her given name starting with M, and no male BANER with his names starting with F B.
Lots of the names on there were appearing before 1926 anyway.
Dee :)
-
Hi Dee,
Many thanks indeed for that!
Have been checking out the address. It's possible that Margaret may have returned to the city of her birth & was staying with a family member, but i don't know for certain!
I don't actually know where Margaret Bauer (Nee' Burgess) was actually born, however i have found a possible birth for her in Liverpool & also a possible 1901 entry for her in the Bootle area of Liverpool which just happens to be the same area of liverpool the Oxford Road, Waterloo address falls within! Unfortunately i can neither look at at the original or find her in 1911.
So still question's to be answered, but i feel that i'm getting nearer the answer's!
Many thanks again!
Kind regards
David
-
David, do you have Margaret's marriage certificate? If so, what is her father's name on that?
Was it Joseph?
Dee :)
-
Hi Dee,
I have the original Marriage record from Anc*stry and her father's name was indeed Joseph Burgess, his occupation was Pattern Maker. That is literally all i know about her father! Name & occupation, not a lot to work with eh! ;D
Kind regards
David
-
Not a lot, David....such a pity her death info didn't include her mother's name.
I can't find anything so far for a Margaret BURGESS with father Joseph who is a pattern maker.
What else could a pattern maker be called, I wonder?
Dee :)
-
Hi Dee,
I've looked in a book of old occupations that i have and it gives the following:
Pattern Maker - Clogworker or mould maker in a factory.
When anc*stry had free access to the 1911 Census last year, i could swear that i found a Joseph Burgess, who was a mould maker, but by the time i realised what a pattern maker was, i'd be darned if i could find it again!
Ho hum, maybe i'll find it again one day! ;D
Kind regards
David
-
David,
I've spent considerable time today checking out all the Joseph Burgesses for 91, 01 and ?, and then did the same for Marg* Burgess 1887 + or - 2 years....on two sites.
Results = :( .......including the one for Joseph Burgess, moulder. :(
Dee :)
-
Hi Dee,
Many many thanks indeed for that, it's much much appreciated!
I think we can say that the Mrs M & Master F B Baner on the 'Ceramic' in 1926 are pretty much without doubt Margaret & Frank Burgess Bauer. The Liverpool address is a bit of a mystery, but will hopefully be solved at some point in the future.
Many many thanks again.
Kind regards
David
-
Hi all,
I have been continuing to look for info regarding Margaret & Frank B & have mainly been trawling the Australain National Archives & have found a possible naturalization record for Margaret in 1939.
Bauer M - Naturalization, item barcode:137290, Series no:A659, Contents date range: 1938 - 1939, control symbol: 1939/1/264, Access: open.
Tried entering the barcode no in the dhistory tool & got 'sorry not found', would prefer to know if it was her or not before getting the original, any way of finding out as i know that she wasn't the only M Bauer around at the time?
What is the likelyhood do you think of Margaret taking out Australian Naturalization?
Finally, are there any Australian census returns?
Kind regards
David
-
Hi David,
Many British immigrants take out Australian Citizenship, so there is a definite possibility she did so, especially with a name such as Bauer and the time when it happened. However, there's no guarantee it is her, and the only way I know to check the documents out easily is to have them digitised.
Have you seen http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/order/index.aspx and followed the link to Copying Charges Fact Sheet? I'm sure naturalisation documentation wouldn't have more than 100 pages. Apart from that, it's a case of going to the office of the National Archives where that record is held and searching it yourself, or finding someone that can do it for you......not an easy option. I guess Margaret's record is either held in Canberra or Melbourne.
As for Census records, all census records since Federation in 1901 and most census records before 1901 have been destroyed. :'(
We only have the Electoral Rolls.
Dee :)
-
Hi Dee,
Many thanks for that.
Thanks for that link, have had a look & at least i know how much it will cost me if i do go ahead.
The record itself is in Canberra according to the location info on the record.
Hmmm, guess i'll have to wait until the 1921 census is released to find out where Margaret was born, how frustrating!
Makes me realise just how lucky we are here in UK to have our census records, when others are destroyed (Australia) or very few released into the public domain as yet (Germany!)
Kind regards
David
-
Australian citizenship did not come into being until 1949, before that we were all British Subjects. If Margaret was born in the UK there was no need for her to be naturalised.
What do you think of this family?
1901 census
RG 13/5202
Folio 41
Page 19
4 Lower Plantation
Welshpool
Montgomeryshire
(Transcribed as BURGERS)
Joseph BURGESS, 38, Engineer Pattern Maker, born St. Helens, Lancashire
Maria, 38, born St. Helens, Lancashire
Margaret, 13, born St. Helens, Lancashire
Oswald J., 7
Austin, 5
Violet M, 3.
Frederick V., 1
Augustine, 3 months
(last 5 children all born Welshpool)
Joseph is easily found on earlier census records in Lancashire as he consistantly gave the same year and place of birth, and he is a pattern maker. However there may be a few headaches and documents needed – in 1891, Joseph is a boarder in St Helens and says he is single (note daughter Margaret was born c1888). In 1911 they say they have been married for 20 years, and there is a possible marriage between Joseph BURGESS and Maria MULLEN in 1892. There is a Maria MULLEN in 1891 whose details match and she is a school mistress also boarding at St Helens.
So who were Margaret's parents?
Debra :D
-
Hi Debra,
Many thanks for your reply.
That family definately looks promising, but as you say, it needs documentary confirmation.
This definately needs following up on!
Much appreciate your help.
Kind regards
David
-
Hi all,
Ten years on (can you believe that!) I finally have an update to Margaret Burgess (later Bauer) story!
With the release of the 1921 census I was at long last able to find out where she was born! Would you believe it! She was born in St Helen's, Lancashire. Therefore Debra's find of that Burgess family is almost certainly correct!
Armed with the new info re place of birth, I started looking into her father's life. I discovered that her father Joseph Burgess was in fact married twice!
He was first married to an Ann Leather on 6th July 1885 at St Mary the Virgin church in Prescot, Lancs. Both were aged 22 years and Joseph a Pattern Maker by trade. Ann Burgess Nee' Leather sadly died in Oct 1888 aged 25 years, with burial taking place at St Thomas church, Eccleston, Lancs on 31st Oct 1888.
Using the GRO Birth Index with mother's maiden surname showing, I found the following birth record:
Burgess, Margaret; Sept Qtr 1887; MMS Leather: Prescot registration district; Volume 8b Page 738. Therefore Joseph Burgess and Ann Leather were Margaret Burgess's parents.
Joseph remarried to Maria Mullen in the June Qtr of 1892 within the Prescot registration district area.
Ii have also now researched the family a few generations back.
My thanks again for all help and assistance with this thread, all very much appreciated.
Kind regards
David