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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: Maifitz on Saturday 29 December 12 02:55 GMT (UK)
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Looking for info on my mother-in-laws family. Her grandmother was Mary Blair not sure if this was her married name. Her daughter was Catherine Blair and her granddaughter was Mary(May) Blair my mother-in-law. May was born in Burnside cottage in Thornhill having difficulty reconciling GRO records for this family.
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What dates are we talking about here?
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Sorry should have thought of that :(
My mother in law was b 16 Mar, 1940 Burnside Cottage Thornhill d. 31 Aug 2007
Her mother is listed on her Death certificate as Catherine Blair or Douglas and on her Birth certificate as Catherine Blair. Her father is not listed we do know that she was illegitimate.
I believe the following is her mother Catherine Robinson Blair 25 may 1920 Burnside cottage Thornhill. This is where the discrepancies start on Catherine's death certificate her Birth date is listed as 24/04/1920 and her mother is listed as Mary Blair or McPhee and no father listed. I have been unable to locate a record of a marriage for a mary blair to Mcphee. or a catherine blair with this date of birth.
On catherine's marriage to John Douglas in 1942 she does not have a father listed, mother is listed as Mary Blair, Robert Blair is listed as a witness... and her address is listed as burnside cottage thornhill which matches where Mary was born. We know that this is the right marriage for his Grandmother.
I was able to find a birth record for a Catherine Robinson Blair also born at burnside cottage with a date of birth of 25/5/1920 which has Mary Ellen Rae listed as her mother and Robert Harrison Blair as her father. Which I suspect is correct but not sure how to be 100% sure.
Not sure why Robert would not be listed on her death certificate or her marriage certificate.
Now for Mary Blair - I know that she was living in a nursing home outside of Stirling as I visited her with my husband and mother-in-law in the mid 80's. She was referred to as Granny Blair but my husband knows little this side of the family. I attended her funeral shortly before leaving for Canada in 1987. We visited with family in thornhill at the time, my husband cannot remember any names nor can I.
I found a death certificate for a Mary Helen Buchanan 21/5/1987 stirling which matches the right time frame. This lists her marital status as divorced and lists two marriages Robert Blair and Andrew Buchanan and her maiden surname as Gray. Could it be possible that Rae should have been documented as Gray on Catherine's birth certificate, and her M.S was missed on Catherine's marriage certificate? I don't want to pursue this unless I can some how confirm that this is the case and have no idea how to do this.
Catherine's death certificate lists her mother as Blair or McPhee. I have not been able to find any death certificates for a Mary Blair or a Mary McPhee in the right time frame.
Did Robert and Mary divorce and is that why he is not listed on any documents other than her birth certificate?? Cannot find a death certificate for him prior to Catherine's marriage. I was able to find a marriage certificate for a Robert H Blair and Mary E Gray. but nothing for Robert Blair and Mary Rae. or for a mary blair to McPhee. I was able to find a Robert Harrison Blair who died in Fife in the 1950's but do not want to request the record if i'm going an a wild goose chase.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Tricky, tricky!
Doesn't help at all that most of these records are outside of the period that you can download and view BMDs online on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk :-\ Because of your location, you have to be more confident of events before ordering at £12 per extract which is understandable.
You know for a fact that your mother in law, Mary Blair, was born illegitimately to Catherine Blair in 1940 at Burnside Cottage, Thornhill.
You also have a birth for a Catherine Blair in 1920, a month later in May than what was stated on her death cert. The link to both is the address of Burnside Cottage, Thornhill which is key to you to try to link events and people it seems from what you have.
You then are moving on to Mary, Catherine Blair's mother, and there the picture is confusing. The Robert Harrison Blair death that you mention in Fife in 1859 shows that Robert as single, so not sure that will help here at this point.
Maifitz, if I can give you any words of comfort here....it is not that you are not putting the pieces together incorrectly in the research, more likely that people 'were economical' with the facts and were approximate with details. Often happens when a family line is confusing (particularly with illegitimate births by different generations), and more tricky when you can't view clues easier outside of the data protection years due to the cost (main reason why www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk gets addictive for those years where you can do an instant download for the years before the cutoffs!).
Monica :)
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I found a death certificate for a Mary Helen Buchanan 21/5/1987 stirling which matches the right time frame. This lists her marital status as divorced and lists two marriages Robert Blair and Andrew Buchanan and her maiden surname as Gray.
Who reported Mary's death? What was her age, her parents' names? Any other details from the cert that could help in tracing her birth?
Monica
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Hi all,
I think Monica is right when she said a lot of the confusion is down to errors, intentional or not. You are on the right tracks with what you have. I think the Rae and McPhee names have been the result of misinformation.
There's a divorce record for Mary E Gray or Blair v Robert H Blair, dated 1944 at http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/ (http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/).
The 1920 1919* marriage of Robert and Mary has an RCE (Register of Corrected Entries) attached, showing action from Mary (of Burnside Cottage) against Robert (of 30 Ochil Street, Tullibody); divorce granted 7th July 1944.
Burnside Cottage may be lead to a further connection through Mary's family. In 1915, an Archibald Douglas was tenant although not sure if connected to Catherine's future husband.
Robert's death in 1959 should show as divorced of course but it's down to the informant and what information they provided at the time.
hume :)
*edited to correct.
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Hi Hume :)
Good to have you on board too ;)
The parents of the Robert H Blair who married a Mary E(LLEN?) Gray at the end of 1919 match the parents of the Robert Harrison Blair who died (as single) in Dunfermline of a heart attack in 1959...
Snippet from his death cert:
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With what we are building up so far....
With Hume's divorce dates, Mary looks to have remarried as you had from her death cert:
Mary Helen Blair married Andrew Buchanan in 1944 in Stirling, Stirlingshire.
This cert is not available to view and would need to be ordered as it is outside the period you can view instantly online (currently, the cut off on SP is 1936).
Monica
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Hi Monica,
It's tricky when they're outside the online dates .. :(
Mary's parents were John Gray, mason's labourer and Mary Gray m.s. McAlpine.
No marriage I can see for them in Scotland (surprise!) but two possible deaths for Mary (McAlpine):
1910, aged 50 in Paisley (b. c. 1860)
1955, aged 77 in Cadder (b. c. 1878).
Mary Helen/Ellen Gray was born c. 1900 according to marriage and either 1901/1902 from her death.
hume :)
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She is a real mystery:)
on the death record I have Peter Gray and Mary McAlpine but could not find a marriage certificate for those names or for John Gray and Mary McAlpine but did find a record for a Thomas Gray and Mary McAlpine Hamilton/Lanark
Just gets more confusing. I tried the 1911 census to see if I could get a match but that just left me more confused and creditless on the site :(
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Hi Hume,
I was trying to get the info on the divorce from the NAS site but my search keeps bring up nothing. Any tips on the search functionality at that site I having some trouble with it :-[
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Hi Maifitz,
It is a bit of a tricky site to use. If you click the search tab, then enter the words Mary Gray Robert Blair in the "Search for" box, it will be the fourth result.
Alternatively, if you copy CS258/11465 into the Reference box, it will take you straight to the record.
There's another reference - CS46/1964/732 - which looks to connect with Mary as well, but unsure what it means.
1964 - Mary Gray or Buchanan: Appointment as Trustees under Feu Disposition by Rob Thomson of Rev John B Mackenzie & others (Polmont Domestic Mission)
hume
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Regarding Mary Ellen's parents....again not sure if they married, or it could have been an irregular marriage as Mary Ellen and Robert H Blair's seems to have been :-\
The witnesses to Mary Ellen and Robert H Blair's are given below. Given the names we have for the mother, could we also have all sort of mixes I wonder...
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Wow didn't spot that when I was looking at the records. My Father-in-law's side was so straight forward that I didn't have to figure out much. Everything just matched :) This is much trickier. I'm trying to contact one of my husband's uncles to see if they can shed any light before I go any further. They are all in their 70's and 80's so hopefully someone can verify any of this information on their grandmother before I bankrupt myself on Scotland's People :)
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I don't know whether this will be of any help?
Anne ;)
(Thornhill (Norrieston) Churchyard)
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Anne,
What a star. 8) I think this helps lots!
hume
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;D Oh my, Anne! Quite a contribution that one! Amazing ;)
Monica
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As showing on Anne's photo, Mary McAlpine died in 1945, at Burnside Cottage. She shows as aged 85 and unmarried.
Her father is down as Thomas McAlpine, a sea captain. Mother Mary and can't make out her surname (thought we would try to at least find her birth on IGI - the easy way!). However, cannot make out her surname:
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Monica ,
Found this(and it's 1855 :) )
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY7G-GH8
ev
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Thanks Ev :) Never seen Hollo/as as a surname I don't think.
Can't see Mary's birth so far, but the following siblings show:
Thomas 1856 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F7MC-JXN
Agnes 1858 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQCT-2HW
Thomas 1859 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F7MC-JXK
Monica
Added: Mary's birth in 1860 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQCR-YZ4
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The family in 1861. Likely a second marriage for Thomas Snr given the date of marriage Ev found. Possible first wife was Magdalene according to the earlier 1851 census. From 1861:
Thomas McAlpin 40, fisherman b. Stoneykirk, Wigtownshire
Mary H McAlpin 38 b. Ireland
James Henry McAlpin 17
Madline McAlpin 14
Margaret McAlpin 11
William McAlpin 8
Edward McAlpin 6
Agnes McAlpin 3
Thomas McAlpin 2
Mary McAlpin 5 Months
Address: 2 Sheuchan Close, Stranraer, Wigtownshire
A little more on the family here http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~heron1/fam725.html
Thought tracing Mary McAlpin back a little would help in finding her with daughter Mary Gray in the 1901 census but can't easily see anything yet...
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In 1871
Thomas McAlpin 50, Seaman b. Stoneykirk, Wigtownshire
Mary McAlpin 48 b. Ireland
Edward McAlpin 16, Day Labourer
Thomas McAlpin 11, Scholar
Mary McAlpin 9, Scholar
Address: 2 Sheuchan Close, Stranraer, Wigtownshire
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1901....
Thomas McAlpine (Head) 40, Seaman in Steamship b. 1861 Leswalt, Wigtownshire
Mary Ann McAlpine, Wife, 38 b. Stoneykirk
Alexander McAlpine, Son, 12, Scholar, b. Stranraer
Elizabeth McAlpine, Daughter, 8, Scholar, b. Glasgow
Agnes McAlpine, Daughter, 6, Scholar, b. Stranraer
Jane McAlipine, Daughter, 5 months, b. Stranraer
Mary McAlpin, Mother, 65, b. Leswalt
Address: 40 St. John Street, Stranraer, Wigtownshire
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1881 ..
Mary McAlpine, Head, Sailor's Widow, 60 b. Stranraer
Thomas McAlpine, Son, 20, Mariner, b. Stranraer
Mary McAlpine, Daughter, 18, General Servant, b. Stranraer
John McGarva, Nephew, 20, Mariner, b. Stranraer
Address: 45 Sheuchan Street, Stranraer
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I hope I'm not muddying the waters here, but I thought if we got a bigger picture .....?
I couldn't find anything in Scotland in 1891, but in England were:
Thomas McAlpine, 74, Mangler (Wash), born Scotland
Mary McAlpine, Wife, 64, Mangler (Wash), born Scotland
Address: 145 Boleyn Road, Islington, London
May be a completely different couple though! :-\
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Hi Anne
That's great with the other censuses. At least we know from the 1901 census entry that you have included that baby Mary was not with maternal grandmother, Mary Hollas, or Uncle Thomas.
For Mary McAlpine b. 1860, so far we have the surnames of McAlpine and Gray. The Mary McAlpine McNeil or Leet that showed as a witness to the marriage of Robert H Blain and Mary E Gray, was not Mary E Gray's mother (phew ::) thought we had a whole new string of surnames to check through!). Not sure how this Mary McAlpine McNeil or Leet is connected (this Mary married a William Leet in 1914, daughter of Daniel McNeil and Sarah McAlpine).
Monica :)
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It is all obvious when you find the right entry ::) :-\ ;)
No John Gray around for Mary Helen's birth....She was born after the 1901 census on 24 October of that year in Maybole, Ayrshire.
As a little recap of the last searches we have all done:
Mary McAlpine b. 1860 in Stranraer, Wigtownshire to Thomas McAlpine and Mary Hollos. She died unmarried in 1945 at Burnside Cottage, her daughter Mary Buchanan reporting her death.
Mary McAlpine b. 1901 in Maybole, Ayrshire to Mary McAlpine (b.1860). Mary married twice. Firstly to Robert Harrison Blair (who died in Dunfermline in 1959), divorce finalised 1944 it seems from what Hume found. Second marriage to an Andrew Buchanan in Stirling in 1944. Mary Blair Buchanan (McAlpine/Gray) died in 1987....there is also son George McPhee born c. 1935 and maybe other names to bring in along the way.
Catherine b. 1920 and her daughter Mary b. 1940 seem more straightforward in terms of info and you have been able to confirm many of their details overall.
....I can now get on with Sunday lunch for the family who are now looking at me less amused as they are hungry :-X
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WOW I went to bed last night thinking about the puzzle :) even had dreams about it. I found information on Granny Blair's grave stone just before I packed it in for the night and it had Buchanan, Blair nee McAlpine and I was so frustrated.
Then I get up this morning and find all this information waiting for me, Thank you thank you thank you
What a fabulous group you are. I spoke with my husband's Aunt and she has given me another family member to call who would be more likely to remember the info on her Granny. So hopefully I can get some answers on this generation before I move on. ;D
I'm so excited
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Oh Gosh Anne I see that you have a posted a picture of the gravestone..... Thank you so much, the info I found last night only had a portion of the text and I was going to see if I could find more info today.
I'm overwhelmed by all the help I'm getting from everyone. I'm so excited.
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The big breakthroughs are always exciting aren't they :) I am excited for you, and it is not my family!
Some thoughts for you to progress through on details:
The NAS (the National Archives of Scotland now merged and is being renamed the National Records of Scotland) details provided by Hume:
Reference CS258/11465 in 1945
Title Mary E Gray or Blair v Robert H Blair - Divorce
Reference CS46/1964/732 in 1964
Title Mary Gray or Buchanan: Appointment as Trustees under Feu Disposition by Rob Thomson of Rev John B Mackenzie & others (Polmont Domestic Mission)
You can contact them (email enquiries[replace with 'at' sign]nas.gov.uk) and ask them for a quote to photocopy these documents and send them to you via 'snail mail'.
The other route, need to do more homework on this, is to check on the voter's roll to see who lived at Burnside Cottage between at least 1920-45, maybe more years either side. This seems to be where all the family women lived! These searches cannot be done online though but likely a main local family history library would have the voter roll ledgers to check (this is where the homework is needed as to which one!). Again, this is likely to require some emailing direct to the relevant library for to ask for help (unless a family member...or RootsChatter...lives nearby ::) ::)).
Monica :)
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Got the Marriage certificate for Thomas and Mary that Ev found on FHS. It was Thomas's second marriage and he already had 6 children and 1 child that died. Looks like Mary Hollas was from Belfast.
Thanks Monica for the suggestions for next steps.
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1855 BMDs are great aren't they. The first year of official Scottish registration and the certs ran over two pages of the registers. For one year only, lots of additional info was included.
Remember to look at the link I posted earlier which has some further info on this line going back http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~heron1/fam725.html
Monica
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I decided to do a search on the 1901 census for a peter or john Gray in maybole. I found a peter living on the same street as Mary McAlpine was born. His occupation is listed as slater which matches Mary's death cert. He is listed with a Mrs Gray, whose age and birth location matched Mary's mothers info. Three children were listed, John Gray b 1889' Charles Gray 1899, and Thomas Gray 1897. I searched for them on the Scotland's people site but couldn't find them with the last name Gray. So I decided to try last name mcalpine and found john (father not listed b. Stranraer) and Charles (father was listed as peter Gallagher, slater b. in 1899 dalbettie) both matching with the dates from the census, both illegitimate, both born to Mary McAlpine. I still haven't tracked down Thomas yet, but it is looking like these are Mary Jr.'s siblings.
Now if I could just figure out what name she used in the 1891 & 1911 census :)
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There are still Blairs living in Low town Thornhill
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Looking for info on my mother-in-laws family. Her grandmother was Mary Blair not sure if this was her married name. Her daughter was Catherine Blair and her granddaughter was Mary(May) Blair my mother-in-law. May was born in Burnside cottage in Thornhill having difficulty reconciling GRO records for this family.
Hi I've just stumbled onto this web site and some how found this conversation, the lady you are talking about is my great granny, my grandfather was Robert (Bobby) Blair he would be a brother to Catherine Blair! I have a full history going back,way back and would be happy to share... My mother (M. Blair) has spent a wee bit of time documenting her family and would love to share..
my email is *
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