RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: DJH on Friday 28 December 12 17:26 GMT (UK)
-
Hello,
I am trying to find some information about my Great Uncle Harold who was killed in the 1st World War at Mons (I think) . I have some information which I include and I should be very grateful if someone could explain what it means. There appears to be something about medals(?) with an asterisk. I think from what I see, he was killed on 30/10/1914 (?)
Would it be possible to find out where he was when he was killed? How he was killed? What he was doing when he was killed? I would like to visit the site of the battle.
I think he is buried at Ypres and I assume it would not be too difficult to find his grave stone(?) Again, I would like to visit and assume also that his name will be written somewhere(?)
Any help or advice would be most welcome.
Thank you.
David
Copyright image removed
-
You can find more about him on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) website. It appears he has no known grave and so is commemorated on the Ypres (Menin Gate) memorial.
-
Thank you so much for your help. Does that mean that it is not known WHERE he died?
David
-
'No known grave' mean that the body was not identified and he is commemorated on a memorial rather than having a burial plot and gravestone.
-
The fact that he is commemorated on that particular memorial means that he died in Belgian Flanders. It is just possible that he was buried but that the site of his grave was lost during the subsequent fighting in what was probably the First Battle of Ypres. I could not find any mention of him on Findmypast which suggests that his records were among the many destroyed by bombing in WW2. His unit records may be held at the National Archives, Kew.
-
Thank you for your help. I will try the National Archives to see if they have any further information on him.
David
-
Assuming the removed image in post one was the Medal Card then its removal means that his identity is not available to those of us reading the thread post removal.
What is the name/number/Regiment please?
Gwil
-
Oops - thank you Gwil. I hadn't realised that the attachment had been removed. I assume I can tell you what it says! His name was Harold V YATES. His Corps was 20/Hos (I think) Rank L/Cpl and Regtl. No : 2911.
Underneath these is an asterisk with a ditto mark on Corps . Then Pte and a ditto mark on Regtl.No. (I don't know what any of this means.)
Then in Medal Roll and Page it has: Victory asterisk(from above) CY/126.B and Page 2587. Next is British and a line broken with either the word No or a ditto mark in Roll and Page either No or 670(!).
Underneath this is 14 Star and CY/7 on Page 73. Beneath this is added Clasp/2/3380. Date of entry therein: 15.8.14
In Remarks is written (I think) KmA or KinA 30.10.14
Now I look again I think this may be Killed in Action (?)
I should be grateful for any explanation of any of this.
David
-
There were quite a few Harold/Harry for that date that Memorial on CWGC. I thought I might be able to help with one of them but it's not the same one.
His unit was 20th Hussars
see
http://www.1914-1918.net/hussars.htm
Someone else may be able to help you with their actual movements/war diary etc.
This should help you with interpretation of the medal card
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/research/index.php/find-your-soldier/campaign-medal-records/how-to-interpret-a-campaign-medal-index-card/
These are the medals referred to
http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/themedals.htm
note the material about the clasp to the 1914 star (referred to on his Medal Card)
-
This is very unscientific but you could try entering details of unit or regiment on Google. There is a fair amount of info hidden there if you have time to "play" with it. I managed to work out exactly where my great uncle died in 1917 by tracing the movements of his battalion. You can also find maps of the area.
-
Thanks Gwil, I will look at those links.
Thank you also Silaswall, I have all the time in the world (Well, what's left!) to play around looking for the information with your leads.
David
-
David,
The war diary for the 20th Hussars is held at Kew in WO 95/1140, but it isn't online yet.
The period is the Battle of Gheluvelt (29th to 31st October 1914). He appears to be one of 19 casualties for the 20th Hussars on the 30th. The 2nd Cavalry Division was in the Wijtschate (Wytschaete) area from what I can make out, with 5th Cavalry Brigade HQ at Oostaverne.
Phil
-
Thank you Phil for your help. If I go to Kew will they allow me to look at the war diary for them? Does it have any personal, named, entries that might mention individual soldiers and what they were doing when they were killed?
David
-
David,
War diaries tend to only mention officers in most cases, but there are exceptions. It must have been a significant day with those casualties, although I have been through 4 or 5 books, some specific to 1st Ypres, but not a mention of 20th Hussars.
If you do intend to visit Kew, apart from being aware that you will need a Readers Ticket, (see their website for details), also be warned that a lot of war diaries are out of circulation at the moment due to the ongoing digitisation programme. Check with them first.
Phil
-
Thanks for all your help, Phil.
David
-
To give you a understanding of what it was like during the First Battle of Ypres I include this excerpt from my grandfather's journal. The entire journal is included in my recently released book, "The Great Promise".
October 20th
The battery marched to the city of Poperinghe and once again we were in Belgium. It was an awful sight to see all of the refugees streaming into Poperinghe from the outlying towns and villages; they were trying to keep ahead of the rapidly advancing enemy. I happened to stop to pat a pretty little child on her head and gave her some biscuits that I had in my pocket. The poor little mite was simply starving. Within a minute I was surrounded by starving children. I emptied my pockets and haversack. Then, with a couple of chums, we collected all the biscuits and Bully Beef in the battery and gave them to the women and children.
It was pitiful to see the children struggling to get at us. It was even a harder job to keep away the hungry Belgian men because we didn’t have anything for them. We had given the women and kiddies everything we had in the food line. That night we bivouacked outside the town.
October 21st
Before dawn we marched towards the village of Langemarke. As we approached the village it was being heavily shelled.
I, and a couple of others, reconnoitered the area for some time, and failed to find a good position for an observation post. Finally two gun sections took up positions in the rear of the church.
I went with the remaining section through the village. As we passed we saw lots of wounded French soldiers in the open by the churchyard. My section dropped into action by the railway, and again, we attempted to find an observation station. I stopped by a deserted powerhouse that I thought could be used. Later I, along with the remaining battery staff, were ordered to regain the two sections at the rear of the church.
As we went towards the railway crossing, a shell burst in the center of the road, about 30 or 40 yards ahead of us. This all occurred as we galloped past the church wall. Fortunately the shrapnel struck the wall, otherwise it would have been right among us.
I galloped past the spot where I had seen the wounded Frenchmen just two hours before. The whole lot was dead and in pieces. It was a horrible sight.
We rejoined the guns without mishap. George Millington and I were ordered to lay our wire to a large deserted convent near our infantry. As we ran the wire we were sniped at pretty hard by Germans hidden in houses to our left; one missed me by inches. The next morning I went back to the spot, found the bullet, and saved it as a souvenir.
October 22nd
George and I laid our wire to the convent. We described it as heavenly, for it was well-stocked with provisions. We found biscuits, butter, and jam, George and I had a good feast and brought some away with us for the battery.
It got pretty warm getting back to the guns. The enemy sniped at us across a large scarred field.
While waiting for us to set up good communications, two signalers dug a shallow trench by the edge of the field. They amused themselves by putting their hats on a flagpole, raising them until the crown of the hat was just above the crest of the trench. Tempting the Germans to shoot at them proved to be an amusing diversion.
We fired hard all morning. The enemy replying on the village did grand shooting on the church, where shell after shell passed through the steeple. Finally the church caught fire and was soon one mass of flames. The clock steeple collapsed with a crash; it was a dramatic sight. It seemed that they wanted to get at our battery for they shelled the fellows in front and behind our wagon line, wounding a few men and killing some horses.
Fortunately for those of us at the guns, only a few men were wounded. Our infantry was forced to retire, so we requested an infantry escort of 100 men for our guns. All they could send us was one platoon of 20 men.
At dark, George Millington (“Old George”) had gone along the wire to forage for food. While he was gone bullets were very plentiful. Eight of us clutched to our little trench, waiting for him to get into communication and return with the spoils.
Things seemed to quiet down for about half an hour when suddenly the Germans played a machine gun dead on us. We thought they had us. Although we did not know it, the infantry was on our left. They had moved while we were waiting for George.
As the infantry took care of the machine gun, I heard strange rustling sounds in the bushes on the other side of the stream. For a moment I thought it was some of the German snipers getting in our rear. I crawled very cautiously on my hands and knees along the stream to a small bridge crossing. I found after no little time that the sound I had heard was caused by some rabbits that our chaps released from an adjoining farm. It was amusing to think about it afterwards but not at the time.
Old George returned, loaded with goods. When I mentioned the machine gun and the rabbit stalking he said, “Blast the guns and rabbits, and have a bit of this strawberry jam, Old China. It’s the goods.” I declined the food for I was too dry to eat.
Nothing drinkable was to be had except the water in the stream and that was dirty. The rest of the night passed rather quietly. In the morning, out of desperation, I was compelled to drink some of the stream water.
-
Underneath these is an asterisk with a ditto mark on Corps . Then Pte and a ditto mark on Regtl.No. (I don't know what any of this means.)
A second line here usually shows that the chap served in a different regiment or unit - in this case the inference is that he was reduced in rank for some reason - but I wouldn't swear to it.
Then in Medal Roll and Page it has: Victory asterisk(from above) CY/126.B and Page 2587. Next is British and a line broken with either the word No or a ditto mark in Roll and Page either No or 670(!).
Underneath this is 14 Star and CY/7 on Page 73.
These are references to the medal rolls - the books holding the lists of recipients of each of the medals.
Beneath this is added Clasp/2/3380.
A special clasp was issued to Old Contemptibles who came under fire between 5 August and 22 November 1914 (as an addition to the 1914 Star - aka Mons Star which was issued to all in France/Flanders between those date, including those who saw no action). This will, presumably, be the reference to the rolls for this award.
Date of entry therein: 15.8.14
Date of entry is the date he arrived in France with his unit.
In Remarks is written (I think) KmA or KinA 30.10.14
It's KinA (Killed in Action) and the date.
30 Oct 1914 the 2nd Cavalry Division - which included the 20th Hussars (20/Hrs) was beaten out of Hollebeke - just the sort of action where a man could be lost without trace. This was during the 1st Battle of Messines. See http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/battles_messines1914.html
-
That is the sort of explanation I have been looking for - thank you very much. I had heard of the Old Contemptibles but know nothing about them. I wondered about his rank as I assumed that the second line was added later and yet showed that he was, as you say, reduced to the ranks. I don't suppose that there would be any record of why this occurred?
Anyway, thank you Newburychap for your help,
David