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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Kiwi Girl on Sunday 23 December 12 10:23 GMT (UK)

Title: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Kiwi Girl on Sunday 23 December 12 10:23 GMT (UK)
I'm trying to work out if this is the Mum or the Daughter.  So if I can narrow down the year I can take a better guess  :)

(http://i46.tinypic.com/1z4z8df.jpg)
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: morminor on Sunday 23 December 12 10:51 GMT (UK)
Quote from: Kiwi Girl on Sunday 23 December 12 10:23 GMT (UK)
I'm trying to work out if this is the Mum or the Daughter.  So if I can narrow down the year I can take a better guess  :)

(http://i46.tinypic.com/1z4z8df.jpg)

Hard one  :D
Dress could around 1900's period!
background ????  :D  It look wrong for hand colouring.  to much depht in place - I could be wrong :'(
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Kiwi Girl on Sunday 23 December 12 10:57 GMT (UK)
Yes, it was a black and white.  My niece was showing me how to colourise photos, so we used this as a practise ;)

So original was b&w and a bit sepia'd at the edge.

late 1890s? or early 1900s was our guess, but wasn't sure what was happening with NZ fashions then...
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Fresh Fields on Sunday 23 December 12 11:25 GMT (UK)
Hello.

From photos I have, I would go along with the late 1890's early 1900's, but my question is about other identifiers. Advice about the photo itself, it's mounting, and any notations on either side of the photo, may assist with narrowing down the field.

- Alan.
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 23 December 12 11:31 GMT (UK)
Shouldn't this question be on the photo restoration and dating board? That is where the experts hang out. I am guessing that there will be a clue or two in the photo for dating - the sleeves, neckline and buttons for example.

It looks like a pose and clothing of an older person - very rough guess 50/600ish? . How does that fit in with your photo date estimation and ages of the ladies in question?

Is there any reason that you have blocked out her head? There may be dating clues with the hairstyle.
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: spades on Sunday 23 December 12 17:24 GMT (UK)
Hi Kiwi Girl,

I will move this topic to the Photo restoration and dating board. You should get some good replies there.

Spades
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: chinakay on Sunday 23 December 12 17:27 GMT (UK)
Sorry, but we need to see the whole thing uncropped and unaltered. The backing is a clue, the toning, everything is a dating clue in an ambiguous photo, and this is one. Please scan in colour.

Also a scan of the back if there is any printing on it.

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Kiwi Girl on Sunday 23 December 12 19:12 GMT (UK)
Hi all,

This was a copy of a copy.  There were no identifying photographer's marks or notes on the back  Just a slightly blue black and white photo with faded marks that I was told were 'kind of sepia' on the original.  I posted it on the NZ thread as fashions may have been a bit different from those in England and America at the time.

Cheers,

KG
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: chinakay on Sunday 23 December 12 19:35 GMT (UK)
It doesn't seem to be on the NZ board anymore. Could we see it unaltered, please?
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Kiwi Girl on Sunday 23 December 12 19:49 GMT (UK)
(http://i49.tinypic.com/2ufvcdz.jpg)

Here's her hairstyle.  I have to blank out her face as she is a Maori woman that I am not a direct descendant of, and it's protocol in my family to not publish pictures of ancestors that are not in my line.

I originally posted this in the New Zealand section, but my wonderful moderator, Spades, moved it here.  :)
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: chinakay on Sunday 23 December 12 20:05 GMT (UK)
Well, without seeing the backing/surround style of the photo, I'm inclined to think the lady is wearing an 1860s or early 1870s dress...the skirt and jacket are definitely an 1860s style, but the little lace collar more of an 1870s style. I'm also thinking this dress may have been given to her by a somewhat larger woman, because the sleeves are way too long and baggy on her. So while the look of the sleeves are from the 1860s, the thing doesn't seem to fit very well.

The pose is fairly typical of the 1860s, seated, full-body and a blank wall behind.

London and Paris drove the fashions of the western world, and publishers of ladies fashion magazines made regular shipments so a lady even at the ends of the earth could buy a copy and have their dressmaker run them up the latest thing. A woman might be only about 3 months or so behind, even in NZ. But a Maori lady...not sure about that. Socially, she might not be in the same league as an Englishwoman so I really have no idea what sort of fashion "statement" might be expected of her.

But generally speaking, she has a late 1860s/early 70s look to her.

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Fresh Fields on Sunday 23 December 12 21:18 GMT (UK)
Hello again KG.

When I saw your post first on the NZ forum I wondered if it was a photo of a Kuia. This you now have confirmed. That being the case, such importance was placed upon the photo image, of the living and or dead, that they were very treasured and displayed in their homes, and at the Marae. Even more so than the likes of my Scottish fore bares.

Therefore I would expect the original to still be treasured, and still around, with family or at the Marae, so details about the original should still be possible to get.

To my mind with a date predating the early 1880's the dress could have been obtained one of two ways. Either by purchase, if the family were one of the very successful early trading families, who helped provision the early settlers, [before the local wars] or was a hand me down from one of the settlers or missionaries’, especially if they had been in service to a Colonial Lady.

Being her “Sunday Best” the Kuia will have worn it to all “occasions” and there is a chance you will find other photos, with her included in that dress, which will help with the time lines.

In the case of the location, if it was a public building of that period the wall behind may be of plaster, if however the base board was of Kauri, planks of that width were not around for that long. As Kauri demand out striped supply, and prices climbed, and the dimensions of the timbers supplied changed. Rusticated weather boards started off as wide as ten or more inches, but soon were down to six, and then by 1900 some were as narrow as four.

Just food for thought.

- Alan.
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Kiwi Girl on Sunday 23 December 12 22:07 GMT (UK)
If it is 1880 or early 1890s it would be the Mother.  She married a European settler in the North, even though she was from Tainui / Maniapoto area. 

Thanks for your help!

 :)
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 24 December 12 10:56 GMT (UK)
Quote from: Kiwi Girl on Sunday 23 December 12 19:49 GMT (UK)
(http://i49.tinypic.com/2ufvcdz.jpg)

Here's her hairstyle.  I have to blank out her face as she is a Maori woman that I am not a direct descendant of, and it's protocol in my family to not publish pictures of ancestors that are not in my line.


Oh, ok, I understand KG.  :)

Alan, interesting observation about the skirting board.
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Kiwi Girl on Tuesday 25 December 12 09:34 GMT (UK)
Quote from: chinakay on Sunday 23 December 12 20:05 GMT (UK)
Well, without seeing the backing/surround style of the photo, I'm inclined to think the lady is wearing an 1860s or early 1870s dress...the skirt and jacket are definitely an 1860s style, but the little lace collar more of an 1870s style. I'm also thinking this dress may have been given to her by a somewhat larger woman, because the sleeves are way too long and baggy on her. So while the look of the sleeves are from the 1860s, the thing doesn't seem to fit very well.

The pose is fairly typical of the 1860s, seated, full-body and a blank wall behind.
...

But generally speaking, she has a late 1860s/early 70s look to her.

Cheers,
China

Allowing for New Zealand to be a bit behind in fashion and the high base boards in the background, would 1875 - 1880 sound right?
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: chinakay on Tuesday 25 December 12 21:23 GMT (UK)
A bit behind is one thing but 15 years behind is quite another. However, for a Maori lady I really have no idea.

The whole thing has a 60s look to it, the pose and the backdrop as well as the clothing. If I could have a look at the entire original I'd have a better idea, but working from what I can see my guess is very late 1860s/early 70s.

I'm just a Canuck...you're the Kiwi, so the rest you'll have to extrapolate yourself....sorry :P :)

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: PrueM on Wednesday 26 December 12 00:05 GMT (UK)
I agree with China's date estimate.  The whole setup of the photograph, as she says, is definitive for the 1860s or very early 1870s.  Bear in mind that the background may not be a real wall - photo studios usually had numerous backdrops to choose from.  Have a look at these, from the mid 1860s in England: http://www.cartes.fsnet.co.uk/date/a1866.htm  You'll see very wide skirting boards there, too.  I don't think it's necessarily a kauri plank (thought of course it could be).

Photographers all over the world tried to keep up with the latest trends and those in NZ were no exception, so I would not expect an 1880s photographer to be still taking simple photographs like this.

The dress is very definitely 1860s in style and certainly made for someone much larger than this lady.

I am a bit confused by the description of the photo as blue-black with sepia edges as this doesn't sound like a typical 1860s/70s photo to me - it may be that this is a 20th century reprint of the earlier one, which would have been a yellow-brown tone all over.
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Kiwi Girl on Wednesday 26 December 12 03:01 GMT (UK)
Yes, This is a a copy of a copy.  I haven't seen the original, just been told it was a black and white that had sepia'd along the edges.  Odds are the original is in a Meeting House, but until I find out who she is, I can't check the Meeting Houses - they are quite a long way from me.  the copy I took this from is in a modern frame, but it looked to have been a photo of a photo that was then developed at a colour photo printing place.  So the blacks had a slightly blue hue to them. I got my copy printed in grey scale so it wasn't so distracting.

New Zealand fashion was not as up to date with England and France and most Maori Women got there clothes from Traders and Missionaries rather than through catalogues.  Also as it was a pioneer time with Europeans having not that long established themselves here, fashions were often a fusion of both cultures, though I think you are right about the dress being borrowed, it does look miles to big for her.

thanks so much for all your input, definitely food for thought.

 :)
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: aboutime on Tuesday 27 January 15 08:13 GMT (UK)
I am new to this and am not sure if you identified this lady but I can, she is my 6 x grandmother. Her name is Hinerara Whitaker nee Potatau, she is also known as Betty and Peti and was born between around 1834 to 1847.    I understand that this photo was taken when she was around 100 years old and totally blind. 
You have had queries on the Whitaker connection previously I see. 

I am happy to help where I can. 
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 27 January 15 08:42 GMT (UK)
Maybe KiwiGirl will be able to confirm if the subject appears to be blind?

My impression is that this woman is not 100 years old - she appears to be sitting tall and straight backed - generally not what you would expect from someone who is 100 years old. Hair is also dark, showing no obvious signs of grey. If quizzed and without seeing her face, I would guess that this woman could be anything between 30 to 60 years old. Though her fingers are not very visible her hands do not appear to be arthritic or obviously old. Shame her body is so overwhemed by the oversized loose garment so no judgement can be made on that. Of course I may be wrong with these observations. ;)

Aboutime, how can you identify this woman as your ancestor? Have you seen this photograph before?
(I don't think I could recognize my own daughter dressed in such an oversized shapeless garment with her face obscured, let alone my 6xgrandmother.  ;D ;D)
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: cazza59 on Tuesday 27 January 15 10:11 GMT (UK)
Ignore me...I missed a page.


Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: chinakay on Tuesday 27 January 15 17:50 GMT (UK)
Again, this is an 1860s dress, probably early, and an early 1870s lace collar. If this photo was taken around 1940 when the sitter was 100 years old or so, that dress would have been 80 years old. Not likely to have survived especially if it was silk, alas.

Cheers,
China
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Ruskie on Tuesday 27 January 15 23:46 GMT (UK)
Quote from: chinakay on Tuesday 27 January 15 17:50 GMT (UK)
Again, this is an 1860s dress, probably early, and an early 1870s lace collar. If this photo was taken around 1940 when the sitter was 100 years old or so, that dress would have been 80 years old. Not likely to have survived especially if it was silk, alas.

Cheers,
China

I cannot comprehend that a woman would have a photograph taken wearing an 80 year old dress (had it by some miracle survived) .... unless it was for fancy dress?  ::)
Perhaps aboutime's dates are incorrect or this is not the person they think it is?  :-\
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Kiwi Girl on Wednesday 28 January 15 05:59 GMT (UK)
Hi all,  well now another twig in the tree has confirmed her, here she is in all her glory.

Amazing looking lady!
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 28 January 15 13:09 GMT (UK)
Eyes closed - perhaps she is blind?  :-\

(I still don't think she looks 100 years old).
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: aboutime on Wednesday 28 January 15 18:16 GMT (UK)
Thankyou to everyone who has responded.....after going back to previous research I have some corrections to make in regards to my previous post.  My apologies for the confusion caused.  Previous to my mother passing away in 2002 she asked me to put all of her research together into a journal, time has passed quickly and it is well overdue that I am now trying to fulfil her request for our descendants.
To clarify and correct: The lady pictured is my 3 x Gr Grandmother not 6x as previously stated and Yes I do have that photo of her also. She was over 100 years old when she died (which does seem quite extraordinary considering the times) but yes she was blind and had a moko on her chin.  The knowledge that this lady was our ancestor has been passed down through each generation and our family are accepted descendants on the Tribal Register.
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 28 January 15 22:53 GMT (UK)
That makes a lot more sense aboutime.  :) Do you know her date of death?

Does this mean that you and Kiwi Girl are related?  :)
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: aboutime on Wednesday 28 January 15 23:02 GMT (UK)
Unfortunately no date of death at this stage, research ongoing .....from notes have a burial place Rangitoto Island - has restrictions on access as Maori burial ground - however need to get some confirmation of this too.  Yes the person KiwiGirl is helping is a cousin...pretty cool.!
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 29 January 15 02:48 GMT (UK)
Very exciting. Best of luck with the search aboutime!  :)
Title: Re: Can you tell by this dress what year this was taken?
Post by: aboutime on Thursday 29 January 15 09:31 GMT (UK)
Thank you again for your input and suggestions....much to think about and confirm, but we are on our way.