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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: MyFamilyTree on Wednesday 19 December 12 14:19 GMT (UK)
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Hello all, I am hoping that someone can help me with the “well-known Brick Wall”!!!
I am looking into my Husband’s family tree, the paternal side and have hit the wall at his Great Grandmother Sinney Smith.
I am unable to find a birth entry for her or any sign of her in 1891 or 1901 either.
The information that I do have for her is;
Sinney, (also spelt Sinnie), Smith
Born c1886 in Fulham, Essex (This is taken from the 1911 census, I’m presuming they really should have written Middlesex?) In the 1911 census she is listed as a ”Market Gardener”
Sinney married George Whitby in 1909 and their marriage certificate names her father as Jacob Smith – deceased.
Unfortunately that is all the information that I have about her, and no end of searching has brought her to me!
Any help or advice would be gratefully received
Thank you
Kelly :)
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Hi what a great name! The only one that stands out in 1891 is a Siney HANT b 1886 Fulham shown as niece to Robert J Penton and Susan Penton in Lambeth RG12/391/173/30?
Posted as just as confused as yourself!
Keyboard86
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Thanks Keyboard, I will go and look into this possibility :)
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Hi
I'm not sure if this is any help but there is a baptism for a Simeon Smith Nov 23 1886, St Andrews West Kensington, parents Jacob & Matilda, their abode is Gypsy Row & he is a Peg Maker.
Another baptism for a Daisy Violet Smith April 7 1889 at St James Fulham to Jacob & Matilda who have no abode this time but are Gypsies. :-\
I've had a quick look on the census to try & discover if Simeon is male or female but haven't found them yet..........
Maddie
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Further baptisms to Jacob and Matilda Smith:
Isabel Smith, born 1885 to Jacob (labourer) & Matilda, abode Fulham "in a gipsy tent", baptised St James Clerkenwell 4 Feb 1886.
Alfred Henry Smith, born 31 Mar 1896 to Jacob (traveller) & Matilda, abode Donovan's Arches, baptised Christ Church Battersea 15 Apr 1896.*
*Also baptised at the same time as Alfred was Lydia Ada Smith, born 14 Dec 1895 to Samuel (traveller) and Maryann, abode Donovan's Arches.
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Hi what a great name! The only one that stands out in 1891 is a Siney HANT b 1886 Fulham shown as niece to Robert J Penton and Susan Penton in Lambeth RG12/391/173/30?
Posted as just as confused as yourself!
Keyboard86
I think the surname of this child may be HART. Robert's wife was Susan(nah) nee LARK, whose sister Matilda (b 1846 Plymouth) married John HART in Lambeth on Christmas Day 1866.
John & Matilda HART with several children are in Fulham in 1891: RG12/52/19/32.
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Amongst a extended Smith family group of "gipsies in tents" in Stanwick, Northants in 1861 was a 21-yr-old Jacob Smith born Barnes Common, who may be worth keeping a note of.
1861: RG9/960/51/28.
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I see that the Smith travelling family of Barnes Common seems in fact to be linked by marriage to the Whitbys and Lovells - from the 1891 census George Whitby seems to be a grandson of Limpady Whitby nee Lovell.
See
http://romanygenes.webeden.co.uk/#/lovell-family-of-barnes/4534343100.
So if Sinney was a daughter of Jacob Smith b Barnes Common then by marrying George Whitby of Barnes she might have been returning to family roots.
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The next baptism after Simeon over the page is for * post no.4
Allen Smith parents John & Mary Ann Smith Gefield? Road Peg maker born 11/3/1885
Jennifer
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I see that the Smith travelling family of Barnes Common seems in fact to be linked by marriage to the Whitbys and Lovells - from the 1891 census George Whitby seems to be a grandson of Limpady Whitby nee Lovell.
See
http://romanygenes.webeden.co.uk/#/lovell-family-of-barnes/4534343100.
So if Sinney was a daughter of Jacob Smith b Barnes Common then by marrying George Whitby of Barnes she might have been returning to family roots.
I have the Whitby/Lovell line already in the tree, just Sinney is missing from those couple of census years and a birth entry for her seems not to exist?
Thank-you everyone for all your help, this lady is not going to get the better of me just yet!!! :D
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It was me who put the Lovell/Whitby of Barnes info on Romany genes. I have an updated version of my notes and an extensive tree if you want it.
Sinny will be short for Cinementa/Sinementi (there are various spellings). There are a number of them in the wider family. John Lovell & Union Lee's Granddaughter Lemonelia Powell married George 'Feathers' Smith and they had children in the late 1890s and 1900s. I don't think they had a Sinamenta though, their children are well documented, but George probably had brothers who married in to the family as well.
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Hi Alison,
I read your article on Romany Gene's and thought it was amazing. I would love to read your updated version and see If I can fathom out any more.
I will PM you with my email address.
Look forward to chatting to you
Kelly
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Jacob & Matilda Smith were my Gt Gt Grandparents, with Isabel being my Gt Grandmother
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Hi,
I just want to say a big 'thank you' for your post, it helped me in my search as I couldn't find my nan's relatives for years. Your post was key to me finding Sinney. :)
Sinney is my nan's mum. It was so difficult to find her, partly due to the baptism translation being incorrect, read as Simeon, a boy!
Eventually, I discovered that my nan (Ellen Wolstenholme, the maiden name Smith) was born the daughter of Sinney Smith who was married to George Whitby, and the daughter of Jacob Smith and Matilda Capel. It was quite the revelation!
I had sent off for my nan's birth Cert' and it confirmed Sinney and George were my nan's parents.
The connection was also confirmed that Sinney Smith was the daughter of Jacob Smith via her wedding banns to George Whitby. He signed as her father.
All of these documents were found on ancestry.co.uk - I have now started a few trees there.
I knew nothing of the Roma connection so this is all new to me, and I have no contact with any family from my nan's side. I used to know Aunt Lou, and remember Joe, my nan's siblings.
My mum, Christine (daughter of Ellen), had no idea of the Roma side either, it was kept quiet on the Wolstenholme side. Bless her, she was so happy that I found her grandparents as now in her 70's.
I thought by joining that it would help give us a sense of belonging to the world of my nan, which we never knew.
I'm happy that 'Sinney' isn't a lost Roma anymore, that she and the family will be remembered.
So, if anyone else is wondering who 'Simeon Smith' is on Jacob Smith and Matilda Capel's line, it is actually 'Sinney Smith', a female not a boy.
I'm still researching and adding to the trees, but below is a short list of connections, they might be helpful for others:
1. Charles Samuel Smith 1837-1893 - 3rd great-grandfather
Jacob Smith 1860-1901
Son of Charles Samuel Smith
Sinney (Sinnie) (Simeon) Smith 1886-1954
Daughter of Jacob Smith
Ellen Whitby 1914-2000
Daughter of Sinney (Sinnie) (Simeon) Smith
Christine Mary Wolstenholme 1950-
Daughter of Ellen Whitby
Tracey-anne McCartney
2. William Capel 1843-1938 - 3rd great-grandfather
Matilda Filby Capel 1866-1933
Daughter of William Capel
Sinney (Sinnie) (Simeon) Smith 1886-1954
Daughter of Matilda Filby Capel
Ellen Whitby 1914-2000
Daughter of Sinney (Sinnie) (Simeon) Smith
Christine Mary Wolstenholme 1950-
Daughter of Ellen Whitby
Tracey-anne McCartney
3. John Lovell 1797-1879 - 4th great-grandfather
Limpedy Limpetty Catherine Lovell 1825-1915
Daughter of John Lovell
Mignonette (Minnie) Whitby 1851-1940
Daughter of Limpedy Limpetty Caroline Catherine Lovell
George Whitby 1884-1947
Son of Mignonette (Minnie) Whitby
Ellen Whitby 1914-2000
Daughter of George Whitby
Christine Mary Wolstenholme 1950-
Daughter of Ellen Whitby
Tracey-anne McCartney
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Just a quick note:
R.E
I used to know Aunt Lou, and remember Joe, my nan's siblings.
Joe wasn't a sibling.
William (Bill), Louisa (Lou) Eliza, Mary Ann (Dolly?) were Ellen's Siblings.
William married Hilda Appleby.
Mary Anne married Frederick Charles Kimpton.
Lou married James Samuel Aplin.
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Hi,
I only discovered that my nan, Ellen Whitby, was the daughter of Sinney Smith and George Whitby. I had no idea of Roman lineage. It took me forever to find an initial link and it was your post which sparked my Roma search. Thank you soooo much. xoxo
Details below:
So, if anyone else is wondering who 'Simeon Smith' is on Jacob Smith and Matilda Capel's line, it is actually 'Sinney Smith', a female not a boy.
I'm still researching and adding to the trees, but below is a short list of connections, they might be helpful for others:
1. Charles Samuel Smith 1837-1893 - 3rd great-grandfather
Jacob Smith 1860-1901
Son of Charles Samuel Smith
Sinney (Sinnie) (Simeon) Smith 1886-1954
Daughter of Jacob Smith
Ellen Whitby 1914-2000
Daughter of Sinney (Sinnie) (Simeon) Smith
Christine Mary Wolstenholme 1950-
Daughter of Ellen Whitby
Tracey-anne McCartney
2. William Capel 1843-1938 - 3rd great-grandfather
Matilda Filby Capel 1866-1933
Daughter of William Capel
Sinney (Sinnie) (Simeon) Smith 1886-1954
Daughter of Matilda Filby Capel
Ellen Whitby 1914-2000
Daughter of Sinney (Sinnie) (Simeon) Smith
Christine Mary Wolstenholme 1950-
Daughter of Ellen Whitby
Tracey-anne McCartney
3. John Lovell 1797-1879 - 4th great-grandfather
Limpedy Limpetty Catherine Lovell 1825-1915
Daughter of John Lovell
Mignonette (Minnie) Whitby 1851-1940
Daughter of Limpedy Limpetty Caroline Catherine Lovell
George Whitby 1884-1947
Son of Mignonette (Minnie) Whitby
Ellen Whitby 1914-2000
Daughter of George Whitby
Christine Mary Wolstenholme 1950-
Daughter of Ellen Whitby
Tracey-anne McCartney
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Documents Sinney Smith and George Whitby
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Documents Sinney Smith and George Whitby
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Documents relating to Sinney Smith and George Whitby
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Documents relating to Sinney Smith and George Whitby - Ellen Whitby (Married Wolstenholme)